I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

[bbyrd009]

This is not my doctrine. This is the doctrine of not only the reformers, but also of countless theologians throughout history.

it's complete yack, and is meant to exclude. many, many Christians disavow trinity doctrine

 

[Naomi25]

1st question:

I'm assuming you are referring to Revelation 9 concerning the locust horde unleashed from the pit. I share the same sentiment with you concerning this interpretation of scripture. How anyone can possibly see helicopters or any other man made vehicle out of that text is beyond my understanding. When you take it literally, its beyond ridiculous because then I would have to believe that an angel fell from heaven with the key to a place called the bottomless pit to unleash nothing but helicopters. Its these kinds of outlandish interpretations that makes a joke out prophecy.


I really don't see the problem you have in taking this literally. I don't know how many hills there are in the world with cattle roaming about, and I'm sure neither do you. I'm not wasting my time trying to figure it out. It doesn't detract from the literal and most basic interpretation to simply mean that every beast of the field belongs to God. As for the millennial reign of God lasting 1,000 years, I say why the hell not? The world will see their maker sitting right in front of their faces and it leaves plenty of time for more people to come to Christ and get saved from judgement.

Hi Dcopymope, thanks for your reply!
I think, in the passage talking about the cattle on a 1000 hills...well, the literal interpretation is that God is saying that he owns everything. Everywhere. Because he does, doesn't he. My concern is that it seems that 'literalists' seem to follow the rule that would say that he actually only own the cows on a literal 1000 hills. Which is ridiculous.
Now, since my original post, I've done some reading about the Dispensational hermeneutics. They believe in a literal interpretation which does take into account reading the passage how they're supposed to be read...which would mean the passage in question would be taken that the Lord owns everything. So, all good....as long as all Dispensationalist follow that hermeneutical principal. I think that sometimes they don't...particularly in Revelation when it comes to numbers...but I'm still working my way through it all, so I'm not sure I can comment further.

2nd question:

Correct, it most certainly hasn't happened yet as my understanding of that text primarily comes from Jesus himself. Forget mans interpretations, the Son of God makes it very clear that the seventieth week of Daniel is the time of the great tribulation set to occur in the last days. If you don't see the gap in the text itself, then ultimately, the way Jesus describes the text is where the gap comes from.

How do you explain the fact that much of what Jesus talks about in the Olivet Discourse describes the Roman invasion of 70AD perfectly? From the stones of the Temple being dismantled, to the siege works encircling the city, to the warning Christ gave...Josephus reports that thanks to Christ's warning, no Christian perished in the siege. I don't think that the whole Olivet Discourse is speaking about 70AD, but I think we must admit that Christ is speaking about it some of the time. And if that is the case, it muddies the water a little in regards to the 7 year tribulation. Especially when you consider just how terrible and symbolic the siege and fall of Jerusalem was.
Not only were the atrocities that went on worse then ever before (as bad as the holocaust was, and it was horrifying, there were no documented cases of mothers killing and eating their babies), but the covenantal significance of God's full abandonment of Jerusalem, her people and the temple was devastating.

So...I suppose I'm asking how you see the Olivet Discourse? How do you explain certain passages that seem to match 70AD perfectly? Coincidence? Providence? Beside the point?

3rd question:

If you really believe the Bible is the word of God, then one verse is all you should need to validate an interpretation. The events set to take place in Revelation 20 is not "another fall". The fall of man occurred in the garden of Eden. Therefore, what occurs in Revelation 20 shines a light on the fallen nature of mankind. It won't matter if God is sitting right in front of them anymore than it did with Adam and Eve, because Satan's guile knows no bounds. And to be clear, it is stated in the old testament that the nations will still be worshiping their own false gods. So while the world may be in peace and harmony, it won't be in harmony in a religious or spiritual sense. That doesn't occur until after judgement day and the creation of the new heaven and earth. Now you can imagine the lie's that will be told by Satan due to false beliefs continuing to exist. You can consider the fire that comes immediately afterward as an example of God separating the wheat's from the tares for good.

You know, I find this interesting. You say that the "lie's that will be told by Satan" will continue to exist. Pre-Millennials often attribute a lot to the binding of Satan, which I find interesting, since scripture only really gives us leave to put one restriction on him due to his binding:

Revelation 20:2-3

[2] And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, [3] and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (ESV)

You would have him restrained in all ways, but his lies are still deceiving the nations? I'm afraid that doesn't really make sense to me, and doesn't seem to follow scripture.

As far as only needing one verse to make a doctrine...well, that depends, doesn't it? Is the verse clear? Is the verse backed up by other references, implicit though they might be? I know others belief there are some of those references in the OT, in Isaiah, but I cannot agree. The passage clearly states "Behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth". I'm not sure how much clearer you can get! So, I just cannot see or find any backing scripture. And building a whole doctrine on one passage...from a symbolic book? I'm not going to take the time here, but I take the opinion that there is much more supporting scripture for 'this age' and 'the age to come'. No 1000 years earthly reign. When Jesus returns, it is to usher in the New heavens and Earth and to raise the dead and to judge all.

The Golden Age:

4th question:

How do I separate such events? Simple.

1. The beginning of sorrows.

2. Great Tribulation.

3. Great Tribulation cut short on the day of the Lord, which I believe occurs in Revelation 15.

(Revelation 15:1-2) "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. {2} And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

4. Wrath of God ensues.

5. Nations gather together for the battle of Armageddon with Christs actual second coming.

6. They of course lose and new Jerusalem is established beginning the millennial reign of Christ.

This is not hard for me to see when you understand that the Day of the Lord is not the actual second coming but is more to do with the gathering of the saints and the annunciation to the world that they are due for a glorious beating for their transgressions against the Lord

Thanks. But I am aware of the general program the Dispensationalist follow. My problem is that I just can't see it in scripture. When I read of Jesus' return in the bible, they are all the one coming...they all speak of the one event. When he comes, we are raised to be with him, as are the dead. Both the living and dead are judged, and all things are made new...I cannot see in scripture any sort of distinction between the comings, and any explanations offered by Dispensationalists seems untenable.

I have been doing a lot of reading on the subject, and while it may not look like it, I have begun to soften my opinion on Dispensational Premillennialism! In fact there are quite a few good questions that I have had answered. So...please don't take my arguments as a person who is just disagreeing for the sake of it. I'm truly trying to dig to the bottom of these issues, so any answers you have are appreciated!

 

[Dcopymope]

Hi Dcopymope, thanks for your reply!
I think, in the passage talking about the cattle on a 1000 hills...well, the literal interpretation is that God is saying that he owns everything. Everywhere. Because he does, doesn't he. My concern is that it seems that 'literalists' seem to follow the rule that would say that he actually only own the cows on a literal 1000 hills. Which is ridiculous.
Now, since my original post, I've done some reading about the Dispensational hermeneutics. They believe in a literal interpretation which does take into account reading the passage how they're supposed to be read...which would mean the passage in question would be taken that the Lord owns everything. So, all good....as long as all Dispensationalist follow that hermeneutical principal. I think that sometimes they don't...particularly in Revelation when it comes to numbers...but I'm still working my way through it all, so I'm not sure I can comment further.

When it comes to numbers in the Bible in general, its not always a black and white issue. When the Bible says that 1,000 years to the Lord is like one day, it can be taken literally to mean exactly that. He could have said 10,000 days for all I care, the point being made is that time means nothing to God. What we perceive as time has already occurred to God, because he is time, the beginning and the end. He could have said that he owns cattle on 10,000 hills for all I care, the point being made is that he owns the beasts of the field. You can take that literally if you wish, but then you might have to waste your time figuring out how many hills on earth there are with animals roaming about. So it depends on what you mean by the term "literal".

How do you explain the fact that much of what Jesus talks about in the Olivet Discourse describes the Roman invasion of 70AD perfectly? From the stones of the Temple being dismantled, to the siege works encircling the city, to the warning Christ gave...Josephus reports that thanks to Christ's warning, no Christian perished in the siege. I don't think that the whole Olivet Discourse is speaking about 70AD, but I think we must admit that Christ is speaking about it some of the time. And if that is the case, it muddies the water a little in regards to the 7 year tribulation. Especially when you consider just how terrible and symbolic the siege and fall of Jerusalem was.
Not only were the atrocities that went on worse then ever before (as bad as the holocaust was, and it was horrifying, there were no documented cases of mothers killing and eating their babies), but the covenantal significance of God's full abandonment of Jerusalem, her people and the temple was devastating.

So...I suppose I'm asking how you see the Olivet Discourse? How do you explain certain passages that seem to match 70AD perfectly? Coincidence? Providence? Beside the point?

My answer to this is simple:

(Matthew 24:29-31) "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It doesn't say 2,000 years later after those days that the day of the lord will come, but immediately after ward, when those days are cut short for the elects sake. Did the sun turn as black as sackcloth, the moon turn red and the stars disappear in those days like both Jesus and the book of Revelation says will occur in the last days? Did the Son of Man appear in the sky for all to see in 70AD? Was 70AD the "last days"?

You know, I find this interesting. You say that the "lie's that will be told by Satan" will continue to exist. Pre-Millennials often attribute a lot to the binding of Satan, which I find interesting, since scripture only really gives us leave to put one restriction on him due to his binding:

Revelation 20:2-3

[2] And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, [3] and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (ESV)

You would have him restrained in all ways, but his lies are still deceiving the nations? I'm afraid that doesn't really make sense to me, and doesn't seem to follow scripture.

As clearly stated by the prophet Micah, the worship of false gods will continue to occur. Satan may not be in action, but his lies certainly will be. That's all the verse is really saying when it comes down to it. His lies will only cease to exist when this fallen world is destroyed with the rise of the new one after the great white throne of judgement, when the prophet Isaiah clearly stated we will no longer remember this current world.

As far as only needing one verse to make a doctrine...well, that depends, doesn't it? Is the verse clear? Is the verse backed up by other references, implicit though they might be? I know others belief there are some of those references in the OT, in Isaiah, but I cannot agree. The passage clearly states "Behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth". I'm not sure how much clearer you can get! So, I just cannot see or find any backing scripture. And building a whole doctrine on one passage...from a symbolic book? I'm not going to take the time here, but I take the opinion that there is much more supporting scripture for 'this age' and 'the age to come'. No 1000 years earthly reign. When Jesus returns, it is to usher in the New heavens and Earth and to raise the dead and to judge all.

That's where you are clearly wrong. Its not one little verse that states he will rule from his throne for a period of time before the establishment of the new heaven and earth. The 1,000 year reign is clearly spoken of by the prophet Isaiah and Micah among others, clearly revealed in Revelation. Your theory only works when taking bits of verses and ignoring the rest. You do the same thing with the olivet discourse. The bride of Christ will rule with the Lord for a period of time before Satan is let loose yet again to deceive the nations. The new heaven and earth doesn't occur until chapter 21 well after the great white throne of judgement, which in of itself doesn't occur until the very end.

Thanks. But I am aware of the general program the Dispensationalist follow. My problem is that I just can't see it in scripture. When I read of Jesus' return in the bible, they are all the one coming...they all speak of the one event. When he comes, we are raised to be with him, as are the dead. Both the living and dead are judged, and all things are made new...I cannot see in scripture any sort of distinction between the comings, and any explanations offered by Dispensationalists seems untenable.

On the day of the Lord, it only says that the bride of Christ is risen. It says nothing about the great white throne of judgment immediately afterward because it simply doesn't occur until much later. The last days are not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Revelation fills in all the gaps of whats actually supposed to happen, that's why its called Revelation, because its been revealed. There is no mystery, no matter how much you want to make it out be a book of simple symbology.

 

[Naomi25]

When it comes to numbers in the Bible in general, its not always a black and white issue. When the Bible says that 1,000 years to the Lord is like one day, it can be taken literally to mean exactly that. He could have said 10,000 days for all I care, the point being made is that time means nothing to God. What we perceive as time has already occurred to God, because he is time, the beginning and the end. He could have said that he owns cattle on 10,000 hills for all I care, the point being made is that he owns the beasts of the field. You can take that literally if you wish, but then you might have to waste your time figuring out how many hills on earth there are with animals roaming about. So it depends on what you mean by the term "literal".

Um. I think you may have misread my answer in regards to this point. Nowhere do I take this literally, or wish to count the number of hills or cows. And now I'm a little afraid to get into how I see numbers in Revelation in case you mistaken that as well!
However, I agree that time has no particular meaning for a God outside of time. And that's why I believe we need to be careful how we take numbers when we come to Revelation. There is meaning there that goes beyond 'literal fact' (we don't want to go back to counting those hills and cows, do we?). We know numbers can have symbolic meaning. 7 has the meaning of fullness, completeness: 7 days of creation, 7 pairs of clean animals into the ark, after the flood, on the 17th day of the 7th month the ark came to rest on ground, Jacob served 7 years for Rachel, Joseph prepared Egypt for 7 good years and 7 famine years, 7th day the Sabbath...and on and on! The number 4 is used to describe the whole of the earth (4 corners of the earth, North, South, East and West). And so on. So when we come to the 1000 years, must we immediately assume it is a literal 1000 year period? Especially when we see it used symbolically elsewhere?

Job 9:3

[3] If one wished to contend with him,
one could not answer him once in a thousand times. (ESV)

Psalm 105:8

[8] He remembers his covenant forever,
the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations, (ESV)

Psalm 50:10-11

[10] For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
[11] I know all the birds of the hills,
and all that moves in the field is mine. (ESV)

Each time 1000 is used in these verses, the clear intent of the passage is "all'. He keeps his covenant for 'every' generation, you cannot find a wining argument against him 'ever', he owns 'every' animal upon 'every' hill.

My point is: Numbers, especially in Revelation, don't have to be literal. And assuming they are, might, in fact, be diminishing the text. If we were to assume, for example, that the above text of Psalm 105:8 was literal in it's usage of 1000, then generation 1001 would be tough out of luck and God would NOT remember his covenant with them, event though he had promised it was an 'everlasting' covenant.
Do you see how we must not jump to conclusions about numbers? Or at least be open to discussing it? I mean...I'm open to discussing that perhaps it is literal. But I'd like to see bible verses that back that up and good, rational arguments!

It doesn't say 2,000 years later after those days that the day of the lord will come, but immediately after ward, when those days are cut short for the elects sake. Did the sun turn as black as sackcloth, the moon turn red and the stars disappear in those days like both Jesus and the book of Revelation says will occur in the last days? Did the Son of Man appear in the sky for all to see in 70AD? Was 70AD the "last days"?

I grant you, I don't think everything Jesus said has yet come to pass, and that's interesting and I'm willing to investigate that further, but, I'd like if you answered my question, because I think it's a valid point and needs addressing in this matter. If nothing, absolutely nothing Jesus said had anything to do with 70AD, then why did so much of it fit like a glove? Do you think it could be a matter of prophetic foreshadowing? A little event that will be played out again in the 'grand end', so to speak?

As far as 70AD being the "last days"? Well:


For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. - Acts 2:15-18

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. -1 Cor 10:11

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son - Heb 1:2

The bible clearly teaches that from Pentecost onward we ARE in "the last days". But we are still expecting "The Day of the Lord."

As clearly stated by the prophet Micah, the worship of false gods will continue to occur. Satan may not be in action, but his lies certainly will be. That's all the verse is really saying when it comes down to it. His lies will only cease to exist when this fallen world is destroyed with the rise of the new one after the great white throne of judgement, when the prophet Isaiah clearly stated we will no longer remember this current world.

Verses in Micah, please?

That's where you are clearly wrong. Its not one little verse that states he will rule from his throne for a period of time before the establishment of the new heaven and earth. The 1,000 year reign is clearly spoken of by the prophet Isaiah and Micah among others, clearly revealed in Revelation. Your theory only works when taking bits of verses and ignoring the rest. You do the same thing with the olivet discourse. The bride of Christ will rule with the Lord for a period of time before Satan is let loose yet again to deceive the nations. The new heaven and earth doesn't occur until chapter 21 well after the great white throne of judgement, which in of itself doesn't occur until the very end.

Verses in Isaiah and Micah about the 1000 year reign please, so I can check it out? Thanks.
Well, I try very hard not to ignore the rest, and that's why I end where I do.
Let me just take a step back. You say that the White Throne of Judgement doesn't happen until the very end (not sure whether you mean the end of the age, or the end of the millennial age). And that the New Heavens and Earth happen after that. Here's what I see scripture saying:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Matthew 25:31-32, Matthew 25:46

I see these passages clearly talking about the judgement of both righteous and unrighteous on the return of Christ. I mean...when it says "when...he will"....that's fairly clear language.

Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, 2 Peter 3:10

These verses show that our 'rapture' coincides with two other events. The 'death of death' and the passing away of the heaven and earth. The death of death is particularly interesting, because 1 Corinthians specifies that "The End" will come once Christ has defeated everything, and the last enemy to be defeated is death. And death will be defeated once we are raptured and given our new, spiritual bodies...at Christ's return.

As far as the order in Revelation goes...hmmm. It's easy to say the the White Throne Judgement is in V 21 therefore it 'has to come after the 1000 years', but I'm not sure Revelation is meant to be read chronologically. Consider. Why does Christ return and thoroughly defeat the nations in V 14, and then again in V19?
And if Matt 25, a much easier book and passage to interpret, tells us clearly that the Judgement happens "When the Son of Man comes in his glory", then, I believe we have enough reason to begin looking at Revelation like perhaps it's not meant to be read chronologically.

Again, I'm willing to enter into conversation about all this, but please use bible verses and not just opinion.

On the day of the Lord, it only says that the bride of Christ is risen. It says nothing about the great white throne of judgment immediately afterward because it simply doesn't occur until much later. The last days are not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Revelation fills in all the gaps of whats actually supposed to happen, that's why its called Revelation, because its been revealed. There is no mystery, no matter how much you want to make it out be a book of simple symbology.

Um...where does it say 'on the day of the lord the bride of Christ is risen'? And I doubt very much that just because Revelation might be a book of symbols that makes it 'simple'. Golly. Regardless of how it's intended to be read, it's still God's work, okay? Which makes it powerful and useful, no matter it's format. But, format does matter, and how God gave it to us should matter, because he gave it to us that way for a reason. I just think it's worth digging into it and finding out a bit about apocalyptic writing. It's interesting, and it's how it was 'revealed'.

 

[keras]

I believe that the very existence of the State of Israel today, surely places us in the Latter Days. Therefore, correct understanding of the end times should be the aim of every Christian believer. We need not be taken unawares of coming earth shattering events. The Lord has called us to be His co-workers, so we should know what lies before us, to work intelligently toward the furtherance of His Kingdom. Remember that Jesus rebuked the people of His day, for not being able or willing to discern the signs of the prophetic times in which they lived.

Since 1948, we have seen an amazing restoration of the Jewish people into a portion of the Land. In Joel 3:1 When the time comes, I will reverse the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem. God says: in that time period, certain things will occur. The next prophesied event will be an attack on the State of Israel by the Islamic nations, with the tacit support of many other nations. This will trigger the destruction and depopulation of most of the Middle East. Jeremiah 12:14, Psalm 83, Zephaniah 2:4-5

Joel 3:2-3I shall gather the nations into the valley of Jehoshaphat [the Lord Judges] I will judge them on behalf of My people, whom they scattered among the nations. Micah 4:11-12
This event is not at the Return of Jesus, as described in Rev. 19:17-21 and Zechariah 14:3-4

Joel 3:4-8 What are you to Me, Israel's neighbours? Do you want vengeance? I will make your deeds recoil onto your own heads. You have harmed Judah and stolen their treasures. I will rouse them and bring them home, your own people will be enslaved. Amos 1

Joel 3:9-17 Proclaim war among the nations! Prepare your weapons, let the weakest say they are strong. The nations round about will hear the call and gather for judgement. The harvest is ripe- wield the knife, tread the grapes. [Revelation 14:17-20] The Day of the Lord's vengeance is at hand, in the Place of Decision. But the Lord is a refuge for His people, a defense for Israel. By this you will know that I am the Lord your God. Jerusalem will be holy.

Joel 3:18-21When that day comes, there will be food and water in plenty in the Land. Egypt and Edom will become desolate wastes because of the violence they did to Judah, but the Land of Israel will be inhabited forever. I shall avenge their blood and the Lord will dwell in Zion. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Zephaniah 2:8-9, Obadiah 21


It should be clear to anyone that a secular State of Israel is not God's highest ambition for His people. Currently the Jews only occupy a small portion of Greater Israel and are beset by problems, water shortages, religious schisms and threats of destruction, etc. Many, many prophecies predict a remarkable future greatness for ALL the Israelites, be they Jews or gentiles grafted in. Romans 8:6-8 Most Bible scholars relegate these predictions to the Millennium, as they cannot see any earlier fulfilment. But when thought is given to what so clearly must happen before Jesus Returns, then wonderful is the prospect of a righteous God fearing nation, living in peace and security in the Promised Land - Isaiah 62:1-5, after the whole area is cleared and cleansed by this great Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10

For the universal Church of Jesus Christ and all peoples, it is time to realize that we are now at the edge of cataclysmic events. The obvious determination and preparedness of Israel's enemies is so great, that there may be no defense adequate to cope with their attack, not just on the Jewish State of Israel, but America as well by nuke missiles. It will require divine intervention to avoid annihilation. If God does not defend and protect His people from their sworn enemies, then His self acclaimed title of 'the Holy One of Israel' and 'the Lord of heavens armies' will be meaningless. I refer here to Righteous Israel - of all His people still scattered around the the world. This event will be the fulfilment of Isaiah 63:1-6, Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Revelation 6:12-17, +

The assurances given concerning the protection of Righteous Israelites, every Christian believer from every race, nation and language; Ephesians 2:11-18, Romans 9:24-26, +, if not kept, would render His Word unreliable, and His character flawed. God's promises never fail; He will aid His chosen people. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

 

[eldios]

So...this might be asking too much. I have noticed that for some reason, nothing seems to send people off the deep end like discussing the end times. People just get mad. If I disagree with their eschatology, then I must be the devil!

So...here's where I am. I grew up in a Christian house where we didn't really talk about end times much, but when we did, I suppose it was with a Pre-trib flavour, because that's what my Grandparents where. Once I grew up myself and became serious about my faith, I decided it was a doctrine that shouldn't be ignored, so I looked into it, assuming that I would follow in my Grandparents footsteps...wonderful, godly people that they were! However, I just couldn't read Pretribulationalism into scripture. So, after a few years of wrestling, I landed Amil (yes, I can hear many of you screaming!). And truly, I have not had my decision shaken throughout the years, only strengthened. I cannot...simply cannot, see how anyone can read Dispensationalism into the texts (sorry, no disrespect meant!).

That being said, I fully acknowledge that I'm faaaarrr from a scholar and could be wrong. And that plenty of godly, wonderful Christian people hold to that position. In fact I've just met a lady who is probably one of the smartest I've ever met (she used to be a scientist before she became ill) and she holds to the Pre-trib position. So I'm wondering how? How can she hold to a position that I consider slightly illogical?

So...I was hoping that some people here might answer (calmly...I really don't want to get into a name calling session) some questions I have about Pretribulationalism.

Ok, first one: How can you say that you hold to a 'literal interpretation', when you just don't? If Hal Lindsey can turn giant bugs into helicopters, then that's not being literal. If the 1000 years has to be a literal 1000 years, then when, in the OT, when God says he owns "the cattle on a 1000 hills"...then I suppose we can only assume he only owns them...not all of them (as the text clearly wants us to take away)....you get my drift. It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question. How does that work? Do you have a hermeneutic behind how you pick and choose that I'm not aware of?

2nd: How can you find a 'gap' in the last of Daniel's 70th week? Doesn't your 'literal' interpretation mean that we'd need to be specifically told it's there? Even without specific's I don't see any sort of implication of it. Without specific, or implication, it seems to me that going to the text without a preconcieved notion of a 'gap' and then a seven year Tribulation wouldn't see you come away with one. It isn't there. So I suppose my question here is...where is it that you...exactly...get the gap? If it's simply the fact that "it hasn't happened yet", then I'm not sure that's strong enough. Do you have biblical evidence for there being, very specifically, a gap?

3rd: And this one is just a clincher for me. You believe that once Christ returns (second return, part 2) and ushers in his millennial reign on the earth, that after the thousand years, Satan will be released and that he will lead the 'nations' of the earth in a revolt against Jesus. Are we honestly saying that after our Lord and Saviour has ruled and reigned over us for a thousand wonderful years of peace and harmony, that humankind is going to experience another fall? This is really no small thing we're talking about. Jesus will be King. No one will be opposing him. Sure, you say not all mankind will be 'saved' and we all know what human nature is capable of. But the whole bible is full of dealing with the 'fall out' of the first rebellion. Can we truly believe that one, tiny verse in Revelation is all that the bible has to say about a potential kick in the teeth of Jesus' reign? It's obscene, the very thought of it, isn't it? I suppose what I'm asking for here, again, is what your views have to say on this. Is this view only based on Revelations 20...on that small verse there within?

4th: Probably my final question at the moment. I suppose one of the most baffling things I find about the Pre-trib, is how you manage to separate the two 2nd comings of Jesus. I simply cannot find that in scripture. Yes...I can find proof of the Rapture, the doctrine is clear...when Jesus returns Christians will meet him in the air, where we will be given our new bodies. However, I find nothing that tells me that this will be secretly seven years before his other coming. In fact, everything I find that mentions his return seems to be rather final. The Day of the Lord (2 Pet 3:10), also known as Christ's second coming (1 Cor 15:23-24, 2Thess 1:7) seems to usher in the renewal of the cosmos (2 Pet 3:10), the resurrection of the unjust (John 5:29), final judgment of the unjust (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:6, 8-9) as well as the resurrection of the just (John 5:29), final judgement of the just (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:7) and, of course, the defeat of the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:23-26).
The same passage that talk about cosmic renewal talk about him coming as a thief...isn't that the term you use to describe the Rapture? You have to, because if you follow, we'll be able to calculate when he'll come next, after the Tribulation starts. He won't be thief-like then, he'll be 7 years to the dot.
So how do you separate all these events? How can Jesus return and Judge the unjust, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and make the cosmos new, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and put an end to death, if it's the Rapture? Where in any of these passages does it allow for a secret return with a seven year gap? I can't see it, and I'm not sure how you do? I'm open to passages and pointers if you have them....

The only way to the Truth is to listen to the voice of God and obey ALL His commandments. Otherwise, you're left to your own interpretations of what the prophecies mean to you. Not one Christian has ever understood what will happen on the day of the Lord after the millennium reign of Christ has revealed what the Truth is.

 

[Naomi25]

The only way to the Truth is to listen to the voice of God and obey ALL His commandments. Otherwise, you're left to your own interpretations of what the prophecies mean to you. Not one Christian has ever understood what will happen on the day of the Lord after the millennium reign of Christ has revealed what the Truth is.

Hi eldios. Trying not to be too rude, but that wasn't very helpful. Are you saying you are the only one to have understood, and can therefore tell that no other Christian has truly understood? Because if that's true, being the 'only one' who knows, and then saying nothing to help others understand is sort of like taunting, isn't it?
But if you, too, don't understand what the bible says about what will happen...how do you know that others aren't right? You have no real understanding to base you disagreement on.
So...I'm not really sure what it is you are trying to say....

 

[Dcopymope]

My point is: Numbers, especially in Revelation, don't have to be literal. And assuming they are, might, in fact, be diminishing the text. If we were to assume, for example, that the above text of Psalm 105:8 was literal in it's usage of 1000, then generation 1001 would be tough out of luck and God would NOT remember his covenant with them, event though he had promised it was an 'everlasting' covenant.
Do you see how we must not jump to conclusions about numbers? Or at least be open to discussing it? I mean...I'm open to discussing that perhaps it is literal. But I'd like to see bible verses that back that up and good, rational arguments!

(Psalms 105:6-10) "O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. {7} He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. {8} He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. {9} Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; {10} And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:"

In context, we are talking about the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed, which indeed is meant to be forever. If we are to compare scripture with scripture, let it actually make sense. Does it say that the 1,000 year reign of Christ before the great white throne of judgement is meant to be "everlasting"? No, because if it did there would be no judgement. The 1,000 year reign isn't about any specific "everlasting covenant", because it simply isn't going to last. To make such a comparison, they would at least have to be even referring to the same event, which they aren't. Are you just going to keep pulling up every scripture that has the number "1,000" to prove your point?

I grant you, I don't think everything Jesus said has yet come to pass, and that's interesting and I'm willing to investigate that further, but, I'd like if you answered my question, because I think it's a valid point and needs addressing in this matter. If nothing, absolutely nothing Jesus said had anything to do with 70AD, then why did so much of it fit like a glove? Do you think it could be a matter of prophetic foreshadowing? A little event that will be played out again in the 'grand end', so to speak?

In the great tribulation, it clearly states that many saints will die by beheading, you claim no one died in the siege of 70AD. Jesus Christ claimed that in this "great tribulation", that special someone, who we know of as the "beast" or "Antichrist" will walk in the temple and declare himself to be God in the flesh, which also occurs in Revelation. Did this happen in 70AD? Was there even a temple built at that point to begin with? I don't recall. I could go on pointing out the many inconsistencies with this belief, but then I would be wasting too much time.

As far as 70AD being the "last days"? Well:


For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. - Acts 2:15-18

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. -1 Cor 10:11

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son - Heb 1:2

The bible clearly teaches that from Pentecost onward we ARE in "the last days". But we are still expecting "The Day of the Lord."

While I don't care about addressing every single verse you pull up. I will atleast address Acts 2.

(Acts 2:17-20) "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: {18} And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: {19} And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: {20} The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"

What wonders have men seen in the skies and in the dirt we stand on to this day that you could say is a sign that we are actually in "the last days"? We've already talked about silly interpretations such as turning the locusts of Rev 9:11 into helicopters, but it hasn't stopped there since. You see, its because of this belief that the last days started thousands of years ago that we also have other outlandish blatantly false interpretations of prophetic events such as wormwood being fulfilled by the Chernobyl event. That right there among others really makes me chuckle. It just kills me. It has only gotten sillier as time goes along ever since. Have you truly seen this outpouring of the holy spirit among men in this very long "last days" in action with true to life prophets, and men giving correct visions and dreams of the future? Look at the endless stream of clowns on YouTube, take a walk outside and be honest with yourself. This is a major reason why Christianity is seen by many as a joke, because our heads are so far up our behinds that we really can't see the forests through the trees.

(Matthew 24:4-8) "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. {5} For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. {6} And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. {7} For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. {8} All these are the beginning of sorrows."

I can take a look around me now and see many false prophets, and squabbles between nations, and earthquakes in diverse places and see that we are in fact in the time of the "beginning of sorrows". Jesus clearly separates it from the real last days which is the great tribulation, a time at which your persecution will be so severe you will wish you were dead, so severe, that it will be cut short on the day of the Lord.

(Matthew 24:14-18) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. {15} When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand[/b] {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."

Was the Gospel preached all over world by 70AD? Clearly not. You will know the end has come when you see the beast of Revelation sit in the rebuilt temple and declare himself God, and the Jews as well as the whole world on there knees licking his boots. That's the real last days.

Verses in Isaiah and Micah about the 1000 year reign please, so I can check it out? Thanks.
Well, I try very hard not to ignore the rest, and that's why I end where I do.
Let me just take a step back. You say that the White Throne of Judgement doesn't happen until the very end (not sure whether you mean the end of the age, or the end of the millennial age). And that the New Heavens and Earth happen after that. Here's what I see scripture saying:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Matthew 25:31-32, Matthew 25:46

I see these passages clearly talking about the judgement of both righteous and unrighteous on the return of Christ. I mean...when it says "when...he will"....that's fairly clear language.

Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, 2 Peter 3:10

These verses show that our 'rapture' coincides with two other events. The 'death of death' and the passing away of the heaven and earth. The death of death is particularly interesting, because 1 Corinthians specifies that "The End" will come once Christ has defeated everything, and the last enemy to be defeated is death. And death will be defeated once we are raptured and given our new, spiritual bodies...at Christ's return.

Death is defeated with the rapture on the day of the Lord for the bride of Christ, not for the world, death in of itself will persist during his pre "new heaven, new earth" reign. There are two resurrections, the first is the bride of Christ, and the second occurs along with the throne judgement, much later, after Satan is let loose to deceive the nations. Again, Revelation fills in the gaps of whats supposed to happen. I don't know where you see a judgement for the righteous, because it ain't happening. For one, there is none truly "righteous" but God. The throne judgement isn't for the bride of Christ, the judgement is for the world. That's what it truly means to be saved, its being saved from the throne judgement. If you claim to be saved and yet you are standing before God being scrutinized for your every though, word and action, then your sins were never atoned for to begin with.

 

[eldios]

Hi eldios. Trying not to be too rude, but that wasn't very helpful. Are you saying you are the only one to have understood, and can therefore tell that no other Christian has truly understood? Because if that's true, being the 'only one' who knows, and then saying nothing to help others understand is sort of like taunting, isn't it?
But if you, too, don't understand what the bible says about what will happen...how do you know that others aren't right? You have no real understanding to base you disagreement on.
So...I'm not really sure what it is you are trying to say....

For one thing, the Bible cannot speak nor does it know if a liar is reading it or not. However, the voice of God is real and is the teacher of all the hidden knowledge called Christ. Those who listen to His voice and obey ALL His commandments will be used to testify to the hidden knowledge of Christ and learn how we're created, what the beast is, what happens on the day of the Lord to end this temporary generation and how we'll experience life after that day.

Those of us servants who obeyed the voice of God become the voice of God for Him to preach the gospel ( voice ) of God to His chosen believers. It's possible you are not a chosen believer and instead, you reject Christ, the knowledge that is necessary to understand these things I mentioned above.

 

[eldios]

In context, we are talking about the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed, which indeed is meant to be forever. If we are to compare scripture with scripture, let it actually make sense. Does it say that the 1,000 year reign of Christ before the great white throne of judgement is meant to be "everlasting"? No, because if it did there would be no judgement. The 1,000 year reign isn't about any specific "everlasting covenant", because it simply isn't going to last. To make such a comparison, they would at least have to be even referring to the same event, which they aren't. Are you just going to keep pulling up every scripture that has the number "1,000" to prove your point?



In the great tribulation, it clearly states that many saints will die by beheading, you claim no one died in the siege of 70AD. Jesus Christ claimed that in this "great tribulation", that special someone, who we know of as the "beast" or "Antichrist" will walk in the temple and declare himself to be God in the flesh, which also occurs in Revelation. Did this happen in 70AD? Was there even a temple built at that point to begin with? I don't recall. I could go on pointing out the many inconsistencies with this belief, but then I would be wasting too much time.



While I don't care about addressing every single verse you pull up. I will atleast address Acts 2.



What wonders have men seen in the skies and in the dirt we stand on to this day that you could say is a sign that we are actually in "the last days"? We've already talked about silly interpretations such as turning the locusts of Rev 9:11 into helicopters, but it hasn't stopped there since. You see, its because of this belief that the last days started thousands of years ago that we also have other outlandish blatantly false interpretations of prophetic events such as wormwood being fulfilled by the Chernobyl event. That right there among others really makes me chuckle. It just kills me. It has only gotten sillier as time goes along ever since. Have you truly seen this outpouring of the holy spirit among men in this very long "last days" in action with true to life prophets, and men giving correct visions and dreams of the future? Look at the endless stream of clowns on YouTube, take a walk outside and be honest with yourself. This is a major reason why Christianity is seen by many as a joke, because our heads are so far up our behinds that we really can't see the forests through the trees.



I can take a look around me now and see many false prophets, and squabbles between nations, and earthquakes in diverse places and see that we are in fact in the time of the "beginning of sorrows". Jesus clearly separates it from the real last days which is the great tribulation, a time at which your persecution will be so severe you will wish you were dead, so severe, that it will be cut short on the day of the Lord.



Was the Gospel preached all over world by 70AD? Clearly not. You will know the end has come when you see the beast of Revelation sit in the rebuilt temple and declare himself God, and the Jews as well as the whole world on there knees licking his boots. That's the real last days.




Death is defeated with the rapture on the day of the Lord for the bride of Christ, not for the world, death in of itself will persist during his pre "new heaven, new earth" reign. There are two resurrections, the first is the bride of Christ, and the second occurs along with the throne judgement, much later, after Satan is let loose to deceive the nations. Again, Revelation fills in the gaps of whats supposed to happen. I don't know where you see a judgement for the righteous, because it ain't happening. For one, there is none truly "righteous" but God. The throne judgement isn't for the bride of Christ, the judgement is for the world. That's what it truly means to be saved, its being saved from the throne judgement. If you claim to be saved and yet you are standing before God being scrutinized for your every though, word and action, then your sins were never atoned for to begin with.

There is only ONE resurrection and all created men will enjoy that saving grace of our Lord and Savior.

Revelation 20
5: The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

However, there was mention of two deaths. All the inhabitants of earth who were birthed into the world experienced the spiritual death which means they did not know who God is or how they were created in Him. The second death is when the flesh of man perishes during this temporary generation. When all the flesh of created men have perished, then all created men born in the Word of God will begin experiencing life in the next generation called the new heaven and earth.

Titus 2:11
11: For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,

I Timothy 4:10
10: For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Acts 17
31: because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

John 12:
30: Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not for mine.
31: Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;
32: and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
33: He said this to show by what death he was to die.

John 5:
25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27: and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
28: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice.

 

[Naomi25]

In context, we are talking about the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed, which indeed is meant to be forever. If we are to compare scripture with scripture, let it actually make sense. Does it say that the 1,000 year reign of Christ before the great white throne of judgement is meant to be "everlasting"? No, because if it did there would be no judgement. The 1,000 year reign isn't about any specific "everlasting covenant", because it simply isn't going to last. To make such a comparison, they would at least have to be even referring to the same event, which they aren't. Are you just going to keep pulling up every scripture that has the number "1,000" to prove your point?

You know, I started this thread with the hope we could talk about all this with openness and a lack of snarkiness, and yet I detect a distinct whiff of snark. No, I do not intend of 'pulling' every passage with the number 1000 in it to prove my point...clearly you missed my point anyway.
My point, very simply, was that the bible often uses number in ways other than the literal. Full stop.

In the great tribulation, it clearly states that many saints will die by beheading, you claim no one died in the siege of 70AD. Jesus Christ claimed that in this "great tribulation", that special someone, who we know of as the "beast" or "Antichrist" will walk in the temple and declare himself to be God in the flesh, which also occurs in Revelation. Did this happen in 70AD? Was there even a temple built at that point to begin with? I don't recall. I could go on pointing out the many inconsistencies with this belief, but then I would be wasting too much time.

*takes a deep, calming breath* I'm pretty sure, on our last, three conversations, I've not said that think there is nothing left to be fulfilled. You seem to be hearing that I'm full preterist or something. Let me try and be frank: I acknowledge that "the Antichrist" did not stand in the temple (if we're actually talking about a rebuilt Jewish temple). I acknowledge that the 'saints' weren't beheaded during the 70AD siege and therefore must occur at a later date (if there is a 7 year tribulation rather than it being the time between Christ's coming...plenty of saints being beheaded at the moment).

Okay...all of that fully on the table, I believe the question I've asked the last three times, that you've consistently dodged or ignored was: how do you explain that a lot (but not all) of what Jesus predicted, came true in 70AD? You have to deal with it...if you continue to ignore, dodge or attempt to turn everything back on me, it ultimately just degrades your own view. We must each, calmly, deal with our views...the good, the difficult, etc.

While I don't care about addressing every single verse you pull up. I will atleast address Acts 2.
What wonders have men seen in the skies and in the dirt we stand on to this day that you could say is a sign that we are actually in "the last days"? We've already talked about silly interpretations such as turning the locusts of Rev 9:11 into helicopters, but it hasn't stopped there since. You see, its because of this belief that the last days started thousands of years ago that we also have other outlandish blatantly false interpretations of prophetic events such as wormwood being fulfilled by the Chernobyl event. That right there among others really makes me chuckle. It just kills me. It has only gotten sillier as time goes along ever since. Have you truly seen this outpouring of the holy spirit among men in this very long "last days" in action with true to life prophets, and men giving correct visions and dreams of the future? Look at the endless stream of clowns on YouTube, take a walk outside and be honest with yourself. This is a major reason why Christianity is seen by many as a joke, because our heads are so far up our behinds that we really can't see the forests through the trees.

Clowns on Youtube are one thing, and we can agree there, but you are poohooing the word of God. Peter, under the clear influence of the Holy Spirit on Penetcost, quoted the Prophet Joel about it now being the Last Days. Do you think they got it wrong? Do you think after him Paul, and the writer of Hebrews also got it wrong? Because their wording in quite clear.

I can take a look around me now and see many false prophets, and squabbles between nations, and earthquakes in diverse places and see that we are in fact in the time of the "beginning of sorrows". Jesus clearly separates it from the real last days which is the great tribulation, a time at which your persecution will be so severe you will wish you were dead, so severe, that it will be cut short on the day of the Lord.

Was the Gospel preached all over world by 70AD? Clearly not. You will know the end has come when you see the beast of Revelation sit in the rebuilt temple and declare himself God, and the Jews as well as the whole world on there knees licking his boots. That's the real last days.

Granted, I don't think the 'end' is yet (here we all are), but Paul would perhaps disagree with you about the Gospel being preached to all nations:

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16


because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, - Colossians 1:5-6

The point being...things may be more ready for Christ than you think...even non-withstanding a Rapture.

Death is defeated with the rapture on the day of the Lord for the bride of Christ, not for the world, death in of itself will persist during his pre "new heaven, new earth" reign. There are two resurrections, the first is the bride of Christ, and the second occurs along with the throne judgement, much later, after Satan is let loose to deceive the nations. Again, Revelation fills in the gaps of whats supposed to happen. I don't know where you see a judgement for the righteous, because it ain't happening. For one, there is none truly "righteous" but God. The throne judgement isn't for the bride of Christ, the judgement is for the world. That's what it truly means to be saved, its being saved from the throne judgement. If you claim to be saved and yet you are standing before God being scrutinized for your every though, word and action, then your sins were never atoned for to begin with.

How is death defeated on the Rapture for the Saints then throughout the Tribulation? I would say death still has quite a sting for them. Death is only defeated when it has no power...death is no more.
As far as a 'judgement' for the righteous, well, it will happen. But not in terms of punishments, the bible says we will be rewarded (or not) for what we have done. For those who have done much with the 'talents' given us, much will be given...that sort of thing. It doesn't effect salvation at all. That is the time when we will hear "well done, good and faithful servant".

 

[Naomi25]

For one thing, the Bible cannot speak nor does it know if a liar is reading it or not. However, the voice of God is real and is the teacher of all the hidden knowledge called Christ. Those who listen to His voice and obey ALL His commandments will be used to testify to the hidden knowledge of Christ and learn how we're created, what the beast is, what happens on the day of the Lord to end this temporary generation and how we'll experience life after that day.

Those of us servants who obeyed the voice of God become the voice of God for Him to preach the gospel ( voice ) of God to His chosen believers. It's possible you are not a chosen believer and instead, you reject Christ, the knowledge that is necessary to understand these things I mentioned above.

Mmmhmmm.
You know, if the bible is as powerless as you say, then it's really worthless. And that's just not true. While it may just be, in appearance, words on a page, those words contain the truth of God. Any liar reading it can, if God so chooses, have his or her lying heart changed. God uses his scripture as His word. It's where he gives us his good news, his gospel...Jesus Christ, the Word of God. And that...that is truth, power and change!
I'm not sure what voice you may be listening to, but if it is telling you the bible is powerless to change people's lives...it is lying.

 

[eldios]

Mmmhmmm.
You know, if the bible is as powerless as you say, then it's really worthless. And that's just not true. While it may just be, in appearance, words on a page, those words contain the truth of God. Any liar reading it can, if God so chooses, have his or her lying heart changed. God uses his scripture as His word. It's where he gives us his good news, his gospel...Jesus Christ, the Word of God. And that...that is truth, power and change!
I'm not sure what voice you may be listening to, but if it is telling you the bible is powerless to change people's lives...it is lying.

The people who read and study the Bible are the one's who think they are better than other people and that power is useless to God. The Bible was never meant to empower the one's who read and study it. It was meant for God to use to show his trusted servants that their testimonies are true and accurate. When I started testifying to the knowledge of God called Christ, God would guide me to a few prophecies to prove to me that the words He was forming in my mind were true and accurate. This gave me more boldness before I was sent out to preach the gospel ( voice ) of God to His chosen believers. 99% of His chosen believers had never opened up a Bible.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to Naomi25, I know we have two good post going on, it only fair that I still respond to your topic, (it's the christian thing to do... (smile). ok to the meat,

4th: Probably my final question at the moment. I suppose one of the most baffling things I find about the Pre-trib, is how you manage to separate the two 2nd comings of Jesus. I simply cannot find that in scripture. Yes.

Let's take Revelation one step at a time, ok.
as I have said Revelation is progressive. but also note that the Book itself is actually 3 books in one. past, present, and future. Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter". so the Revelation is progressive, past present, and future. our job is to find out what John hast SEEN first or is witness to or know about. if it's ok with you may I suggest a starting point. why not start at the birth of Jesus chapter 12.

 

[eldios]

GINOLJC, to Naomi25, I know we have two good post going on, it only fair that I still respond to your topic, (it's the christian thing to do... (smile). ok to the meat,

Let's take Revelation one step at a time, ok.
as I have said Revelation is progressive. but also note that the Book itself is actually 3 books in one. past, present, and future. Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter". so the Revelation is progressive, past present, and future. our job is to find out what John hast SEEN first or is witness to or know about. if it's ok with you may I suggest a starting point. why not start at the birth of Jesus chapter 12.

So when did God give you the authority to figure out what the prophecies are about? If you haven't heard His voice speaking commands directly into your mind to get you to confess and repent of every single sin you ever committed, then you have not been chosen to be one of His trusted servants who has the authority to use the prophecies to back up every word that is formed in your mind from the mind of Christ.

 

[101G]

So when did God give you the authority to figure out what the prophecies are about?

to eldios, he gave it when he gave us his word, by his Spirit, meaning the book of revelation. that's the authority.

then you have not been chosen to be one of His trusted servants who has the authority to use the prophecies to back up every word that is formed in your mind from the mind of Christ.

well there's only one way to find out...... (smile)

 

[eldios]

to eldios, he gave it when he gave us his word, by his Spirit, meaning the book of revelation. that's the authority.

well there's only one way to find out...... (smile)

Not one reader of Revelation can understand the prophecies written in it. Only God can reveal the stories of the past, present and the future through the testimonies of us servants. So if you're interested in learning what is written in Revelation, then you have to listen to the voice ( gospel ) of God that I preach to you.

 

[101G]

Not one reader of Revelation can understand the prophecies written in it.

that's hog wash. Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand". why keep things if you don't understand them?. that want fly, ASK and it will be given unto you, SEEK and ye shall find, KNOCK and the door will be open.

eldios, what is it you don't understand in the book of Revelation?.

 

[eldios]

that's hog wash. Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand". why keep things if you don't understand them?. that want fly, ASK and it will be given unto you, SEEK and ye shall find, KNOCK and the door will be open.

eldios, what is it you don't understand in the book of Revelation?.

Here's a question for you? What is "the other beast" in the following prophecy and what are "the two horns"? Here's a hint; the two horns mean the same exact thing as the "feet of iron and clay" in Daniel 2: 41-43.

Revelation 13
11: Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.
12: It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.
13: It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men;
14: and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived;
15: and it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
16: Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,
17: so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18: This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

Here's another question; What is the image of the beast that could speak?

 

[101G]

Here's a question for you? What is "the other beast" in the following prophecy and what are "the two horns"? Here's a hint; the two horns mean the same exact thing as the "feet of iron and clay" in Daniel 2: 41-43.

well you have a question, you have a church and state relationship, both powers (horns), but not mixed, just read the gospels. next question.