Is The Rapture A Literal Event?

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Hidden In Him

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Adieu!

And when you return, should you wish, I'm interested in where you are reading about this in the Bible. I'd like to look at it.

Much love!

Not in the Bible. That's more something the Spirit is revealing to the church, but there are verses here and there that will corroborate things. But that's where you have to make a decision. Those who believe in end-time visions, dreams and prophecy check all things against the Bible to make sure they are of God, but if you regard the Bible as the only word God will ever speak, you have already determined that all such manifestations of His desire to speak to His people today are false, even before hearing or reading them.
 

charity

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Yes, my dear. :) But your position in quoting this passage presumes that God has already written off the world and closed the door. As I was telling marks, the harvest is the end of the age, so we have a lot of people to reach yet. And lying signs and wonders will indeed come to the wicked, but this does not preclude the Lord manifesting HIS power in turn for those destined for salvation. It says in Matthew that the lying signs will be powerful to deceive the very elect, but these will not deceive them. Is this because they have dismissed all supernatural manifestations as of Satan, or because the church performed "even greater works" than the Lord Himself during the end-time, to bring forth the harvest : )

I think the latter, but that's me.
Hello @Hidden In Him,

The 'presumption' you give voice to, is not mine, my friend.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Stan B

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For those who do believe in a literal snatching up of bodies into the air.
I know 'you' use Enoch as a type, but where else in the 'bible patterns' would you find this illustration ?

I find this zapping up of bodies from all walks of life, planes, trains and automobiles something like sci fi it do not se it patterned anywhere.

He don't really see where Enoch was zapped into heaven...it just says "he was not, because he lord took him. "

He also took Moses, and buried him where they couldn't find him. It is only a guess that Enoch was zapped...Maybe he also was not, because the Lord buried him. I believe the rapture idea hangs on a thread...

The Book of Jasher chapter 3 expands upon Enoch's rapture:

27 And at that time the sons of men were with Enoch, and Enoch was speaking to them, and
they lifted up their eyes and the likeness of a great horse descended from heaven, and the
horse paced in the air;

28 And they told Enoch what they had seen, and Enoch said to them, On my account does
this horse descend upon earth; the time is come when I must go from you and I shall no
more be seen by you.

29 And the horse descended at that time and stood before Enoch, and all the sons of men
that were with Enoch saw him.

31 And all the sons of men assembled and came to Enoch that day; and all the kings of the
earth with their princes and counsellors remained with him that day; and Enoch then taught
the sons of men wisdom and knowledge, and gave them divine instruction; and he bade
them serve the Lord and walk in his ways all the days of their lives, and he continued to
make peace amongst them.

32 And it was after this that he rose up and rode upon the horse; and he went forth and all
the sons of men went after him, about eight hundred thousand men; and they went with him
one day's journey.

33 And the second day he said to them, Return home to your tents, why will you go? perhaps
you may die; and some of them went from him, and those that remained went with him six
day's journey; and Enoch said to them every day, Return to your tents, lest you may die; but
they were not willing to return, and they went with him.

34 And on the sixth day some of the men remained and clung to him, and they said to him,
We will go with thee to the place where thou goest; as the Lord liveth, death only shall
separate us.

35 And they urged so much to go with him, that he ceased speaking to them; and they went
after him and would not return;

36 And when the kings returned they caused a census to be taken, in order to know the
number of remaining men that went with Enoch; and it was upon the seventh day that Enoch
ascended into heaven in a whirlwind, with horses and chariots of fire.

37 And on the eighth day all the kings that had been with Enoch sent to bring back the
number of men that were with Enoch, in that place from which he ascended into heaven.

38 And all those kings went to the place and they found the earth there filled with snow, and
upon the snow were large stones of snow, and one said to the other, Come, let us break
through the snow and see, perhaps the men that remained with Enoch are dead, and are
now under the stones of snow, and they searched but could not find him, for he had
ascended into heaven.
 

marks

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but if you regard the Bible as the only word God will ever speak,
I don't. God told me to eat figs. I've been eating them ever since. But that's not Bible, of course.

Agreed, everything checked against Scripture. But didn't you say Scripture doesn't tell about it? What are we checking exactly?

Much love!
 

Stan B

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I don't. God told me to eat figs. I've been eating them ever since. But that's not Bible, of course.

Agreed, everything checked against Scripture. But didn't you say Scripture doesn't tell about it? What are we checking exactly?

Much love!
It's in my Bible, Genesis 1

"I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;"
 

Hidden In Him

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I don't. God told me to eat figs. I've been eating them ever since. But that's not Bible, of course.

My wife recently bought a bag of figs that's sitting on the kitchen table and staring at me all the time. Can't have them right now. Fasting, LoL.
Agreed, everything checked against Scripture. But didn't you say Scripture doesn't tell about it? What are we checking exactly?

Much love!

What little it does say is in verification, but the Bible itself doesn't give much detail.
 

Hidden In Him

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>>"but the Bible itself gives little detail."

He gave us a brain to figure out that stuff for ourselves. :)

LoL! We all use our brains in different ways. Some go this way, some go that way. It's all a matter of where one is being directed, which is where the Holy Spirit is supposed to come in. Unfortunately, there is a large segment of Christians today who do not pray for the Spirit's guidance as they should, so their brains end up going down rabbit trails instead of in the right direction. Scholarship doesn't help. If the brain is not still guided in how to apply scholarship, you just have that many more rabbit trails to go down : )
 
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Stan B

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LoL! We all use our brains in different ways. Some go this way, some go that way. It's all a matter of where one is being directed, which is where the Holy Spirit is supposed to come in. Unfortunately, there is a large segment of Christians today who do not pray for the Spirit's guidance as they should, so their brains end up going down rabbit trails instead of in the right direction. Scholarship doesn't help. If the brain is not still guided in how to apply scholarship, you just have that many more rabbit trails to go down : )

The only thing we need is the promise from Jesus, that "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13
 
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Hidden In Him

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The only thing we need is the promise from Jesus, that "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13

Winner chicken dinner. There are certainly some who can profess to be guided by the Spirit when in fact they are not. But for those who genuinely walk in the Spirit, the saying is true. Those who are guided by the Spirit will check what is spoken against God's word, but they will not easily dismiss what the Spirit is saying to the churches either. They learn to recognize the Shepherd's voice, as He speaks through both prophetic utterance and the scriptures.

Welcome to Christianity Board, Stan. If I might ask, what brings you here?
 
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Helen

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The Book of Jasher chapter 3 expands upon Enoch's rapture:

27 And at that time the sons of men were with Enoch, and Enoch was speaking to them, and
they lifted up their eyes and the likeness of a great horse descended from heaven, and the
horse paced in the air;

28 And they told Enoch what they had seen, and Enoch said to them, On my account does
this horse descend upon earth; the time is come when I must go from you and I shall no
more be seen by you.

29 And the horse descended at that time and stood before Enoch, and all the sons of men
that were with Enoch saw him.

31 And all the sons of men assembled and came to Enoch that day; and all the kings of the
earth with their princes and counsellors remained with him that day; and Enoch then taught
the sons of men wisdom and knowledge, and gave them divine instruction; and he bade
them serve the Lord and walk in his ways all the days of their lives, and he continued to
make peace amongst them.

32 And it was after this that he rose up and rode upon the horse; and he went forth and all
the sons of men went after him, about eight hundred thousand men; and they went with him
one day's journey.

33 And the second day he said to them, Return home to your tents, why will you go? perhaps
you may die; and some of them went from him, and those that remained went with him six
day's journey; and Enoch said to them every day, Return to your tents, lest you may die; but
they were not willing to return, and they went with him.

34 And on the sixth day some of the men remained and clung to him, and they said to him,
We will go with thee to the place where thou goest; as the Lord liveth, death only shall
separate us.

35 And they urged so much to go with him, that he ceased speaking to them; and they went
after him and would not return;

36 And when the kings returned they caused a census to be taken, in order to know the
number of remaining men that went with Enoch; and it was upon the seventh day that Enoch
ascended into heaven in a whirlwind, with horses and chariots of fire.

37 And on the eighth day all the kings that had been with Enoch sent to bring back the
number of men that were with Enoch, in that place from which he ascended into heaven.

38 And all those kings went to the place and they found the earth there filled with snow, and
upon the snow were large stones of snow, and one said to the other, Come, let us break
through the snow and see, perhaps the men that remained with Enoch are dead, and are
now under the stones of snow, and they searched but could not find him, for he had
ascended into heaven.

Sorry, none of that is in my bible...
 

Hidden In Him

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Sorry, none of that is in my bible...

He's honoring an apocryphal book. Some are indeed valid. Jude quotes the Book of Enoch which is apocryphal (Jude 1:14-15), and scripture likewise makes mention of the Book of Jasher in Joshua:

And the Sun stood still, and the Moon stayed,
until the people had avenged themselves on their enemies.
Is this not written in Sefer HaYashar? (Joshua 10:13)

I haven't personally looked into Jasher all the much, so I can't attest to its veracity yet. It's the sort of thing you get into more when discussing things in scholarly circles.

 

Philip James

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The only thing we need is the promise from Jesus, that "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13

Hello Stan

I'm always confused by those that seem to think this applies to themselves personally and yet not to the Church as a whole, and so they wander into heresies long since exposed and rejected.... Forgetting that the Truth does not change..

Peace be with you!
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hello Stan

I'm always confused by those that seem to think this applies to themselves personally and yet not to the Church as a whole, and so they wander into heresies long since exposed and rejected.... Forgetting that the Truth does not change..

Peace be with you!

You know what... I have never read the verse like that before, and you're probably right. Many times when we think passages are referring to and applicable to individuals, when they are actually referring to the church as a whole, and it may be the same here. "Putting on the new man" is one such phrase, not being a command to the individual but to the entire church to put on ONE new man, i.e. Christ in His fulness, as the context bears out.

But I suppose John 16:13 could still be applied individually also, so long as it was understood to not be the dominate meaning of the verse.
 

marks

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He's honoring an apocryphal book. Some are indeed valid. Jude quotes the Book of Enoch which is apocryphal (Jude 1:14-15), and scripture likewise makes mention of the Book of Jasher in Joshua:

And the Sun stood still, and the Moon stayed,
until the people had avenged themselves on their enemies.
Is this not written in Sefer HaYashar? (Joshua 10:13)

I haven't personally looked into Jasher all the much, so I can't attest to its veracity yet. It's the sort of thing you get into more when discussing things in scholarly circles.
This book of Jasher, so called, it's not the real book.

And because Jude quotes from Enoch, that doesn't mean the pseudopigrapha is his, it's not. It was written by others, yet bears Enoch's name, so it's pseudopigrapha, in other words, in it's very title, it lies, and therefore cannot be trusted.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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And because Jude quotes from Enoch, that doesn't mean the pseudopigrapha is his, it's not. It was written by others, yet bears Enoch's name, so it's pseudopigrapha, in other words, in it's very title, it lies, and therefore cannot be trusted.

My response there would be, if the Book of Enoch we have is not the Book of Enoch Jude was quoting, which Book of Enoch was he quoting from? : )
 

marks

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My response there would be, if the Book of Enoch we have is not the Book of Enoch Jude was quoting, which Book of Enoch was he quoting from? : )
He quoted from Enoch.

It seems to me this quote from Enoch was known, and around it, a few got together and wrote the book. But that Jude quotes Enoch, and there is a book that bears Enoch's name, this does not authenticate Enoch as Scripture, or mean that Jude took his quote from that as a source. Both share a separate and common source, Enoch.

One way that we know Enoch isn't Scripture is it's inclusion of factual error.

Much love!