Is the Word of God only found in scripture?

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ChristisGod

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if you want salvation there must be apostles

Matt 28:19
no that is not applied today, it was for the original ones. The Apostles made disciples. Discipleship still exists, Apostleship is extinct like the dinosaurs. :)

They once existed but now are nothing but bones in the ground but their teaching still exists today and we can learn from those inspired words of God.

next..........................
 

Mungo

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what you are missing is that little stones are also called by us "gravel". Go to Israel there is tons of gravel.

Caesarea Philippi and the Gates of Hell – Elliot Ritzema

Though there were many pagan temples in c. Phillipi, Jesus was not referring top them allegorically. Sorry. Also the word usage inspired by god Himself petros for Peter and Petra for the rock which He would build His church is a first year greek student easy to answer question.

Every cliff face has lots of rock debris at its base- especially surrounding the gates of Hell or the gate of Pan where they has a statue of Pan.

Opinions, opinions, opinions.
 

Mungo

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Petros and Petra
This is a post that BreadofLife did

1. There is no distinction between "petros" and "petra."
"In Aramaic 'Peter' and Rock are the same word; in Greek (here), they are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period."
--Craig S. Keener,The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 90.

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry."
--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broke off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed."
--John A. Broadus, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, (Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), 355.

"I grant that in Greek Peter (Petros) and stone (petra) mean the same thing, save that the first word is Attic [from the ancient classical Greek dialect of the Attica region], the second from the common tongue."
--John Calvin, Calvin's New Testament Commentaries: The Harmony of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 2, trans. T. H. L. Parker, ed. David W. Torrance and Thomas F. Torrance, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972), 188.

"The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and Petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words."
--Gerhard Friedrich, ed., and Geoffrey W. Bromley, trans. and ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VI, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1968), 98-99.

2. Two different Greek words are used because you can't use a feminine noun for a man's name.
"The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."
--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"When using both the masculine and feminine forms of the word, however, Matthew is not trying to distance Peter, Petros, from 'this rock,' petra. Rather, the evangelist changes the genders simply because Simon, a male, is given a masculine form of the feminine noun for his new name."
--James B. Shelton, letter to the authors, 21 October 1994, 1, in Scott Butler, Norman Dehlgren, and Rev. Mr. David Hess, Jesus Peter and the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Goleta, CA: Queenship, 1996), 23.

"The name Peter (not now first given, but prophetically bestowed by our Lord on his first interview with Simon (John 1:42), or Cephas, signifying a rock, the termination being only altered from petra to petros to suit the masculine appellation, denotes the personal position of this Apostle in the building of the Church of Christ."
--Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 1, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1983), 119.

"The most likely explanation for the change from petros ('Peter') to petra is that petra was the normal word for 'rock.' Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man's name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros."
--Herman N. Ridderbos, Bible Student's Commentary: Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1987), 303.

"The feminine word for rock, petra, is necessarily changed to the masculine petros (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form kepha would occur in both places)."
--R. T. France, The Gospel According to Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985), 254.
 

Mungo

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Seven Reasons Why Peter is the Rock
by Tim Staples - Catholic Answers

Few texts have been the occasion for the spilling of more ink than Matthew 16:17-19:

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

For Catholics, this text is clear. All twelve apostles were present, yet Jesus promised to give to Peter alone the keys of the kingdom, symbolizing the authority of Christ—the authority of heaven—over the kingdom of heaven on Earth, which is the Church. Yet millions of Protestants believe that there is a distinction in meaning in the Greek text between the two “rocks” that would eliminate Peter from consideration for being the rock.

“Thou art petros and upon this petra I will build my church . . .” The first rock, petros, is claimed to refer to a small, insignificant rock: Peter. The second, petra, is claimed to mean a massive boulder: that would be either Jesus or Peter’s confession of faith. The argument concludes Jesus did not build his church upon St. Peter but either upon himself or Peter’s faith.

Below are seven reasons, among many others we could examine, why Peter is undeniably the rock:

1) Matthew, we have pretty solid evidence, was originally written in Aramaic. Both Sts. Papias and Irenaeus tell us as much in the second century. But even more importantly—and more certainly—Jesus would not have spoken his discourse of Matthew 16 in Greek. Greek was the dominant language of the Roman Empire in the first century, but most of the common Jewish folk to whom Jesus spoke would not have been fluent in it. Aramaic was their spoken language.

Moreover, we have biblical evidence—John 1:42—that also points to Jesus using Aramaic in the naming of Peter: “[Andrew] brought [Peter] to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, ‘So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas’” (which means Peter).

The name Cephas is an anglicized form of the Aramaic Kepha, which means simply “rock.” There would have been no “small rock” to be found in Jesus’ original statement to Peter.

Even well-respected Protestant scholars will agree on this point. Baptist scholar D. A. Carson, writes, in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary:

[T]he underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses (“you are kepha” and “on this kepha”), since the word was used both for a name and for a “rock.” The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with a dialect of Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses.

2) In Koine Greek (the dialect of Greek used by the authors of the New Testament), petros and petra are masculine and feminine forms of words with the same root and the same definition—rock. There is no “small rock” to be found in the Greek text, either.

So why did St. Matthew use these two words in the same verse? Petra was a common word used for “rock” in Greek. It’s used fifteen times to mean “rock,” “rocks,” or “rocky” in the New Testament. Petros is an ancient Greek term that was not commonly used in Koine Greek at all. In fact, it was never used in the New Testament, except for Peter’s name after Jesus changed it from Simon to Peter.

It follows that when St. Matthew was translating, he would have used petra for “rock.” However, in so doing, he would have encountered a problem. Petra is a feminine noun. It would have been improper to call Peter Petra. This would be equivalent to calling a male “Valerie” or “Priscilla” in English. Hence, petros was used instead of petra for Peter’s name.

3) There are several words the inspired author could have used for rock or stone in Greek. Petra and lithos were the most common. They could be used interchangeably. A connotation of “large” or “small” with either of them would depend on context. The words simply meant rock or stone.

Craig S. Keener, another Protestant scholar, on page 90 of The IVP Bible Background Commentary of the New Testament, states: “In Greek (here), they (referring to petros and petra) are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period…” D. A. Carson points out the big/small distinction did exist in Greek, but is found only in ancient Greek (used from the eighth to the fourth century B.C.), and even there it is mostly confined to poetry. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek (used from the fourth century B.C. to the fifth century A.D.). Carson agrees with Keener and with Catholics that there is no distinction in definition between petros and petra.

One of the most respected and referenced Greek dictionaries among Evangelicals is Gerhard Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. In a most candid statement about Matthew 16:18, Dr. Oscar Cullman, a contributing editor to this work, writes:

The obvious pun which has made its way into the Greek text . . . suggests a material identity between petra and Petros . . . as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the two words. . . . Petros himself is this petra, not just his faith or his confession. . . . The idea of the Reformers that he is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable. . . . For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of “thou art Rock” and “on this rock I will build” shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock. . . . To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.

Contd...
 

Mungo

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Seven Reasons Why Peter is the Rock
...Contd


4) If St. Matthew wanted to distinguish “rocks” in the text, he would have most likely used lithos. As stated above, lithos could refer to a large rock, but it was more commonly used to denote a small stone. However, there is a third word St. Matthew could have used that always means small stone: psephos. It is used twice in Rev. 2:17 as “small stone” when Jesus says, “To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.” Here we have one Greek word that unlike lithos and petra always has a connotation of “small stone,” or “pebble.”

5) A simpler line of reasoning gets away from original languages and examines the immediate context of the passage. Notice, our Lord says to St. Peter in Matthew 16:17-19:

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus uses the second person personal seven times in just three verses. The context is clearly one of Jesus communicating a unique authority to Peter.

Further, Jesus is portrayed as the builder of the Church, not the building. He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus is “the wise man who built his house upon the rock” (Matt. 7:24) in Matthew’s Gospel. Once again, it just does not fit the context to have Jesus building the Church upon himself. He’s building it upon Peter.

6) A lot of folks miss the significance of Simon’s name change to Peter. When God revealed to certain of his people a new and radical calling in Scripture, he sometimes changed their names. In particular, we find this in the calling of the Patriarchs. Abram (“exalted father” in Hebrew) was changed to Abraham (“father of the multitudes”). Jacob (“supplanter”) to Israel (“One who prevails with God”). In fact, there is a very interesting parallel here between Abraham and St. Peter. In Isaiah 51:1-2, we read:

Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn. . . . Look to Abraham your father.

Jesus here makes St. Peter a true “father” over the household of faith, just as God made Abraham our true “father” in the Faith (cf. Romans 4:1-18; James 2:21). Hence, it is fitting that Peter’s successors are called “pope” or “papa,” as was Abraham (cf. Luke 16:24).

7) When we understand that Christ is the true “son of David” who came to restore the prophetic Kingdom of David, we understand that Christ in Matthew 16, like the King of Israel, was establishing a “prime minister” among his ministers—the apostles—in the Kingdom. Isaiah 22:15-22 gives us insight into the ministry of the “prime minister” in ancient Israel:

Thus says the Lord God of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him . . . Behold the Lord will hurl you away violently. . . . I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the House of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

In Revelation 1:18, Jesus declares, “I have the keys of Death and Hades.” He then quotes this very text from Isaiah in Revelation 3:7:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: “The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.”

No Christian would deny Jesus is the King who possesses the keys. Who does he give the keys to? Peter!
 

amadeus

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if you want salvation there must be apostles

Matt 28:19
That may be what you believe, but that is Not what that verse says:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matt 28:19

The pronoun, "ye", is simply an older English plural for you. I know you presume that Jesus was speaking only to the apostles present in the flesh, but that is not specified in the written scriptures.

He was speaking to all of us, which is why the Bible is available to anyone who has access to it and wants to read it.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Opinions, opinions, opinions.

Well mine are based in facts. Yours about Peter and Rome are the real opinions! There is a real gates of hell there. there is always small stones at the base of cliffs EVERYTWHERE. Jesus is tghe cornerstone on which the church is built. All the apostles are called the foundation, not just Peter.

So as is usual for Romanists, you are heavy with allegory and opinion but lacking in empirical fact.
 

theefaith

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No, Little Birdy. There are only twelve apostles. Paul took the place of Judas. Have you never read, "the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb"?

There are only twelve apostles. These men began the construction of Jesus' church, laying the foundation.

Fire is coming to test each man's work. Will your work survive?

I don't think so. Your work is built on another foundation, a foundation built by the one who seeks to destroy God's temple.

1 Corinthians 3:
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Would you like to be a follower of Jesus? Abjure your allegiance to the one man who built on the wrong foundation with inferior materials. Turn to Jesus Christ in repentance and seek his forgiveness. The New Testament is the place to find the truth concerning Jesus Christ and the Father's ratification of his ministry, his teaching, and his obedience, even unto death. The Father raised him from the dead, as the firstborn among many breathren, and Jesus is advocating for his followers. Why not give up your religion and worship the only man worthy of your obedience?

Follow Jesus
Believers are not Christians
They are only catechumens
Christians have received the sacraments and are in the church

Did Christ found a church?
Who did he found the church on?
 

theefaith

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Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the church. The entire church (you are too hung up on government) exists because Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God.

Yes the church has a governing structure, that is a given, but that governance is all based on teh inspired word of God and applying it to the situations that arise in the nearly 2 millenia of church existence.

not what scripture says

Matt 18:17
Jn 16:13
Eph 2:20
The church is governed by apostles
 

theefaith

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no that is not applied today, it was for the original ones. The Apostles made disciples. Discipleship still exists, Apostleship is extinct like the dinosaurs. :)

They once existed but now are nothing but bones in the ground but their teaching still exists today and we can learn from those inspired words of God.

next..........................

not what Christ and scripture say

you cannot govern the church on a confession Matt 16:18 but in the apostles and their successors eph 2:20
Acts 1:26

matt 28:19-20 behold I am with you (the apostles) until the end

the apostles with hierarchy rule the new covenant church and administer the kingdom till Christ returns
 

theefaith

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That may be what you believe, but that is Not what that verse says:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matt 28:19

The pronoun, "ye", is simply an older English plural for you. I know you presume that Jesus was speaking only to the apostles present in the flesh, but that is not specified in the written scriptures.

He was speaking to all of us, which is why the Bible is available to anyone who has access to it and wants to read it.
Only the apostles
Matt 16:18
Matt 28:19
Jn 20:21-23
Eph 2:20
 

ChristisGod

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not what Christ and scripture say

you cannot govern the church on a confession Matt 16:18 but in the apostles and their successors eph 2:20
Acts 1:26

matt 28:19-20 behold I am with you (the apostles) until the end

the apostles with hierarchy rule the new covenant church and administer the kingdom till Christ returns
Neither Jesus or the Apostles taught succession.

next
 

Ronald Nolette

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not what scripture says

Matt 18:17
Jn 16:13
Eph 2:20
The church is governed by apostles

The church is governed by elders.
You ripped Matt. 18 out of context- that is for discipline alone.
What does John 16:13 have to do with chruch governing?
I agree with Eph.2.

Jesus is the cornerstone upon which the apostles gaikned their authority. they only repeated what they were taught- they did not have authority to create doctrine out of whole cloth.
 

theefaith

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Neither Jesus or the Apostles taught succession.

Without successors how are the yo teach all nations Matt 28:19 the us was not a nation for 1800 yrs

Jesus did teach it by say I’m am with you ( the apostles) until his return

Acts 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
 

theefaith

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The church is governed by elders.
You ripped Matt. 18 out of context- that is for discipline alone.
What does John 16:13 have to do with chruch governing?
I agree with Eph.2.

Jesus is the cornerstone upon which the apostles gaikned their authority. they only repeated what they were taught- they did not have authority to create doctrine out of whole cloth.

no they never created doctrine
Doctrine was revealed in entirety to the apostles Jude 1:3 and the apostles define and declare that same true doctrine Matt 28:19
 

Abaxvahl

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Of course, but later, Jesus personally called Paul. Matthias was not personally called by Jesus, was he?

He was not but he is part of the 12, the St. Paul is another Apostle/Prophet called by Jesus personally who had equal dignity with them, but Jesus didn't make him part of the 12, which Judas was part of and then replaced by St. Matthias.
 

theefaith

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Of course, but later, Jesus personally called Paul. Matthias was not personally called by Jesus, was he?

that’s the authority Christ gave his apostles

Christ and his church are one Jn 1:5 acts 9:4


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

Christ s king Lk 1:32-33

in the kings absence true Christians are subject to the kings ministers


Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.