Literal Isreal In End-Times Prophecy

[Enoch111]

Yes, the eternal Covenant was/is made originally to the physical/blood-line seed of Israel and because of repeated faithlessness and idols worship to name a couple of big reasons for sending divorce papers across to them, the LORD literally and spiritually, abandoned the physical seed of Israel in this Covenant and ended making/extending this everlasting Covenant to all the entire spiritual seed of Israel- that was the promise given to Abraham as well; and they were from all corners of the literal and physical globe. This all was foreseen by our Creator of course.

From a human perspective, one would think that God should have totally rejected Israel and the Jews after they rejected Christ. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. Therefore in Romans 11, Paul lays out the future of REDEEMED AND RESTORED ISRAEL (only the believing remnant of Jews after the Second Coming of Christ). And in that passage he affirms that Israel as a nation will indeed be redeemed and restored (along with Jerusalem). And this totally refutes Replacement Theology.

ROMANS 11: THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL UNDER CHRIST
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [this would refer to the Rapture]
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Christ is the Deliverer who will come to Jerusalem and deliver it from the Antichrist]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [see the prophecy of Ezekiel for this]
28As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [the "fathers" being Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church, but He also has a parallel eternal plan and purpose for Israel on earth under Christ.

 

[Waiting on him]

From a human perspective, one would think that God should have totally rejected Israel and the Jews after they rejected Christ. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. Therefore in Romans 11, Paul lays out the future of REDEEMED AND RESTORED ISRAEL (only the believing remnant of Jews after the Second Coming of Christ). And in that passage he affirms that Israel as a nation will indeed be redeemed and restored (along with Jerusalem). And this totally refutes Replacement Theology.

ROMANS 11: THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL UNDER CHRIST
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [this would refer to the Rapture]
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Christ is the Deliverer who will come to Jerusalem and deliver it from the Antichrist]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [see the prophecy of Ezekiel for this]
28As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [the "fathers" being Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church, but He also has a parallel eternal plan and purpose for Israel on earth under Christ.

What’s Gods plan for the Jews that have died in their sins for the past 2000 years?@Enoch 111

 

[APAK]

From a human perspective, one would think that God should have totally rejected Israel and the Jews after they rejected Christ. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. Therefore in Romans 11, Paul lays out the future of REDEEMED AND RESTORED ISRAEL (only the believing remnant of Jews after the Second Coming of Christ). And in that passage he affirms that Israel as a nation will indeed be redeemed and restored (along with Jerusalem). And this totally refutes Replacement Theology.

ROMANS 11: THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL UNDER CHRIST
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [this would refer to the Rapture]
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Christ is the Deliverer who will come to Jerusalem and deliver it from the Antichrist]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [see the prophecy of Ezekiel for this]
28As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [the "fathers" being Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church, but He also has a parallel eternal plan and purpose for Israel on earth under Christ.

Enoch: this I believe might be the first time in a great long time I'm confused with you post and I strongly disagree with your unqualified comment to me.

Why do you say I preach a Replacement Theology? I do not, and because you have not bothered to listen/read. Sorry for saying so, mine is not one of replacement, yours is apparently one built not on scripture - this dual path arrangement theory.

I see you do not understand Romans 11 without inserting your bias here as well, your rapture theory and your Jerusalem Anti-Christ theory. Your understanding of the development of the nations in history is twisted also, as it does not mean the last generation before Christ returns, as to solely support and make your dual God's people theory kicks in.

Again then...So you have a dual path to salvation for God's people. It is in part built on a rapture theory and a false meaning of what 'the fullness of the nations' mean. It means when the nation/states are all developed and mature and then were many years ago, and when the gospel was spread to the known world as into the nations, and thus Christianized the rest of the remnant of Israel in the process, so 'all' could be saved.; This is the 'mystery' spoken of in Romans 11:25. Not a future flung event based on theories as you also include your anti-Christ theory with Christ at Jerusalem. It is all build on loose sand my friend.

Get into scripture a little more and you will find out what it really says about God's people and who they really are and 'when' all are saved. In fact wait till I provide my response to Ron and you will see that what you think of 'the Ezekiel prophecy' is also completely wrong. You are biased towards your pet theories and stake your life on them I presume, and are blinded by them, and I would say you will not change your mind any time soon.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

Again then...So you have a dual path to salvation for God's people.

You have simply made an unfounded assumption. Salvation has always been by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. Therefore after the Second Coming of Christ one-third of Jewry worldwide will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. That is plainly stated in Scripture.

At the same time there is no denying that God has an eternal plan and purpose for BOTH the Church (in the New Jerusalem) and redeemed and restored Israel on earth.

 

[Jay Ross]

@Ronald Nolette, You posted this passage

Ezekiel 20:33-38 {King James Version}

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.​

However, I would suggest that by changing the translation of just two Hebrew words in verse 38, the contextual meaning and understanding of the verse changes markedly such that the "land of Israel" disappears and the "fertile field of Israel" comes into focus such that the Lord has no intention for the redeemed Israelites to return to the Land of Canaan at this time to live.

38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country/earth where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land/fertile field of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.​

For the nation of Israel to be a Blessing to all of the Gentile Nation of the earth, the Israelites must remain scattered throughout the earth as they presently are, after they renew with God the covenant made at Mt Sinai to become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nations.

At the moment, the present nation of Israel, on what was originally the Land of Canaan, are becoming a mill stone for the nations and the nations will, after Israel attempts to rebuild the Temple in our near future, become the reason for the Kings of the earth to assemble at Armageddon, where God will judge the nations of the earth after the fullness, with respect to time, of the Gentile nations trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly Hosts over the past 2,300 years as foretold in Daniel 8 which began around the year 250 BC when Israelite scholars began to translate their holy scriptures into the Greek language, with the finished translation to be housed in the Alexandra library.

With the translation and contextual flaws contained in the LXX, which was focused on the "Jewish" understanding of the importance of the "Promised Land," the translation errors/flaws have become the tradition of our present day translations used throughout the world within the present denominations and churches.

Before we begin quoting a particular English translation of the Scriptures from the original languages they were written in or available copies there of, we need to verify the actual translations to confirm that the context of the source texts has not be tampered with by the zeal of translators themselves.

It is my view from my reading of the scriptures, that Israel will remain scattered throughout the whole earth until the end of the prophesied events that are found in the last three chapters or so of Book of Revelation.

Yes I agree that the Israelites will play a big role in the last Age, i.e. the Millennium Age, but not necessarily in the manner in which is being suggested by the publishing scholars of today.

Shalom

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ron: I can only address you opening comment first as I believe you have pinned something on me (again) that I was suggesting you are labelling yourself with your Israeli end time theory...

..this is an example of the needless rabbit holes I do not wish to go with you on....let me explain this one...

When I said in my last post that I wanted to emphasize again I was not creating a Replacement Covenant theory...and then I said you are creating a dual Covenant theory or whatever name you want to call it...

Now can we clear this obstacle up first, that should never have been in the road in the first place...

And then calling me a liar is definitely another sign of insecurity on your part, concerning Israel as a physical nation today that was clearly destroyed many centuries ago. And you still persist and continue to misapply scripture to force your type of truth, and to keep alive at all costs this ridiculous unscriptural theory.

Do you want to consider and try to understand the Covenant, the literal Covenant of the literal original people? It was modified along the way as the the Patriarchs and the Prophets wrote over the next centuries, many times, and they foresaw the appearance and work of Christ in the future that was to be the major modification in this Covenant, that was never destroyed or abandoned. ONLY, the literal original people WILLINGLY abandoned this Covenant and tried to destroy it in the process and even tried/tries to stop others to be a part of this same Covenant, under Christ. God does not lie and he kept the Covenant, regardless of rebellion and faithlessness of the original receivers of it, in tact, as the promise to Abraham and then through his Son and our Christ.

Blessings,

APAK

So how can I have a discussion when you do not want to contribute or cannot, to this subject, for you seem either to lack the knowledge in scripture or you selectively do not wish to go anywhere except to support your precious literal Israeli AND resurrected OT literal Israel Kingdom(s) theory, ...as the only truth you wish to discuss.

I'm trying to communicate here Ron..

APAK

I am still waiting for you to explain to me what supposed "dual covenant" I believe in is. Tell me what you think I believe or don't believe in.

YOu seem to believe you have a keen sense of reading minds. YOu think I have insecurity. I do not!

YOu make allegations but refuse to support your allegations as to how I misapplyi which Scriptures.

I am contributing. As for a restored Israel, you have yet to disprove the
Scriptures I posted.

As for the Mosaic Covenant- you seem to think it is still alive and well and that is unbiblical as well. If you think me wrong show me, just don't bloviate with empty allegations.

So why don't you show that these verses do not apply to Israel:

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So instead of your empty allegations and ad-hominems, why don't you show us from SCripture why these are no longer referring to physical Israel, or why Jesus did not bother to correct His apostles when they asked HIm this:

Acts 1:6-7
King James Version

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well let's get this over with shall we....

You have not showed any knowledge and understanding of the scripture passages you provided here to impress me I guess...now please provide a commentary of all three without adding useless one line comments at the end that I found unimportant to your point you are, I believe still trying to make.

Of course be ready for my rendition of the meaning of this scripture that keeps proving my view and not yours.....it is because you have a completely different mindset on this subject and are looking for your predetermined outcome, not I.

Waiting for you commentary then on Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Zechariah scripture...APAK

Well not impressing you means little or nothiung. Are you someone I am supposed to impress? Why?

I let the Scripture speak for themselves. they need little more than the commentary I gave. But I await your oration on why these verses do not mean what is simply written, but have a different meaning than what is written.

But if you want a real commentary on these passages:


www.ariel.org Go to the store, click books, and buy the book "Israel, past present and Future". that is the commentary I support!

So I await your mystical explanations.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette, You posted this passage

Ezekiel 20:33-38 {King James Version}

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.​

However, I would suggest that by changing the translation of just two Hebrew words in verse 38, the contextual meaning and understanding of the verse changes markedly such that the "land of Israel" disappears and the "fertile field of Israel" comes into focus such that the Lord has no intention for the redeemed Israelites to return to the Land of Canaan at this time to live.

38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country/earth where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land/fertile field of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.​

For the nation of Israel to be a Blessing to all of the Gentile Nation of the earth, the Israelites must remain scattered throughout the earth as they presently are, after they renew with God the covenant made at Mt Sinai to become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nations.

At the moment, the present nation of Israel, on what was originally the Land of Canaan, are becoming a mill stone for the nations and the nations will, after Israel attempts to rebuild the Temple in our near future, become the reason for the Kings of the earth to assemble at Armageddon, where God will judge the nations of the earth after the fullness, with respect to time, of the Gentile nations trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly Hosts over the past 2,300 years as foretold in Daniel 8 which began around the year 250 BC when Israelite scholars began to translate their holy scriptures into the Greek language, with the finished translation to be housed in the Alexandra library.

With the translation and contextual flaws contained in the LXX, which was focused on the "Jewish" understanding of the importance of the "Promised Land," the translation errors/flaws have become the tradition of our present day translations used throughout the world within the present denominations and churches.

Before we begin quoting a particular English translation of the Scriptures from the original languages they were written in or available copies there of, we need to verify the actual translations to confirm that the context of the source texts has not be tampered with by the zeal of translators themselves.

It is my view from my reading of the scriptures, that Israel will remain scattered throughout the whole earth until the end of the prophesied events that are found in the last three chapters or so of Book of Revelation.

Yes I agree that the Israelites will play a big role in the last Age, i.e. the Millennium Age, but not necessarily in the manner in which is being suggested by the publishing scholars of today.

Shalom

Well I will only deal with the word "land". It is the word ADAMA and means ground or dirt. If it was eretz, or more specifically "sade" then I would agree with you. But adama means land, ground, dirt! And in this context itrefers to the physical land of Israel God promised.

I love doing word studies in the original languages to insure I miss not the nuances.

As for modern authors, I can't comment. For the study of Israel, her people and hisotry, I sit under only one teacher after looking at many.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. Has a masters in Greek, THD, Bachelors in Hebrews (though native speaker) and bachelors in biblical archeology. Also a very faithful follower of Jesus. I also love Alfred Eddersheim from the 1800's and of course l;ook at the Word of God as written without any allegorical reinterpretations.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well I will only deal with the word "land". It is the word ADAMA and means ground or dirt. If it was eretz, or more specifically "sade" then I would agree with you. But adama means land, ground, dirt! And in this context itrefers to the physical land of Israel God promised.

I love doing word studies in the original languages to insure I miss not the nuances.

As for modern authors, I can't comment. For the study of Israel, her people and hisotry, I sit under only one teacher after looking at many.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. Has a masters in Greek, THD, Bachelors in Hebrews (though native speaker) and bachelors in biblical archeology. Also a very faithful follower of Jesus. I also love Alfred Eddersheim from the 1800's and of course l;ook at the Word of God as written without any allegorical reinterpretations.

You are right in that you are holding to the traditionally modified allegorical understanding of scripture. Genesis 13:14-17, when understood as it was written, demonstrates that the "Promised Land" was for a finite period of time and as the prophets continually warned, the "Promised Land" would be stripped from them because of their refusal to stop their cultic idolatrous worship practices throughout the first two ages of their existence. In 70 AD God allowed the Prince to come with his Roman Army to drive the nation of Israel to the four corners of the earth, and they would remain scattered throughout the earth until God once more will gather the Israelites to Himself. The verses below is how I understand the Hebrew text should be paraphrased in English for this particular passage: -

Genesis 13:14-17 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land/earth which you see I give to you and/, {that (entity)} I will give to your descendants forever/for a long period of time {whose ending is at a vanishing point of this time particular period time in the future}. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land/about the/my earth through its length and its width, for I give it to you/Me to give it to you. "​

Now if God intended to give the "land" that Abraham saw with his own eyes as he walked throughout the country that he traversed, then why did God not include Abraham as a recipient in the above verses. It also calls into question, as to what God gave Abraham that God intended to show him. My understanding is that in Genesis 12:1, God in the covenant that He made with Abraham promised to give Abraham the whole earth, i.e. God's intended Earth, that He would show Abraham and his descendants over a prolong period of time. This is the same promise that "Christians" today also believe in, that they will inherit the whole earth. Daniel in Daniel 7:27 also confirms that this is the intended inheritance that Abraham's descendants would also receive.

As for the teacher that you say you sit under, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, he is a little older than myself, however, it seems to me that he holds to the traditional misunderstanding of his father that Israel will once more be given back the Promised Land. This may be true in the distant future, but not during the remain present age or during the Millennium Age.

A misunderstanding of Genesis 12:1 has lead to a misunderstanding of God's prophetic word in the rest of the Old Testament for Israel with respect to the "Promised Land."

I believe that Jesus referred to the fertile soil that Israel will be planted in in the next age in the parable of the Sower that he told. Jesus also told those who were listening to Him on His last journey up to Jerusalem, when they, Israel, would also repent of their sin in the Parable of the Minas.

There is a lot of hidden messages found in our scriptures which have become hidden because of the traditions we still faithfully hold onto as we are not prepared to renew our minds and learn things that refurbish our understanding of what is actually contained within the ancient texts.

Shalom

 

[Curtis]

Just one problem. god foretold Israel would be set aside (not disowned) for the sake of bringing in the gentiles.

God fully intends to restore physical Israel into the covenant (the new covenant) Tjhe new covenant has not gone into effect yet. Gentiles are gentiles and not spiritual seed of Israel.

the spiritual seed of Israel is simply saved Israelis throughout the world.

The modern state of Israel is fulfilment of biblical prophecy, especially Ez. 37-39

But as far as the nation of Israel as a physical nation being restored?

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


We see Gods promise to gather them back in anger. The word plead here means enter into judgment with them. God will bring them into the New Covenant. He will cleanse the people from the rebels.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Here is another specific promise to the physical nation of Israel to enter into a new covenant because they broke the old covenant. When will they enter into the new covenant? AFTER THOSE DAYS! Now without getting into all the reasons why- After those days when not modifed by a specific time frame refers to the tribulation, which the main purpose is to prepare the nation of Israel to receive her Messiah.


Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


There will come a point in history when 2/3 of all living Jews will be killed. The remaining 1/3 will call upon the Lord and be saved!
Hitler killed 1/3 of all Jews. During the reign of antichrist, 2/3 will die.

As for the Galatian passage?

Galatians 6:16
King James Version

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God refers to righteous Jews! Second grade grammar reveals that there are two groups invovled in Paul's blessing.
1. To as many as walk according to this rule.
2. Also the Israel of God.

To think that this means the same people (as if the church is the Israel of God) is twisting the clear meaning of Scripture and accusing God of erroneous use of grammar.

I agree with you, nearly 100% - the only comment I will add, is that Paul wrote that the new covenant went into effect with the death of Jesus - but we know from Romans 11 that for now most of Israel is in unbelief, except for a remnant, thus relatively few of them are in their own new covenant - but nevertheless the new covenant is in effect, and we gentiles are grafted into their new covenant, by our faith.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

The rest of your post was right on the money.

Shalom.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are right in that you are holding to the traditionally modified allegorical understanding of scripture. Genesis 13:14-17, when understood as it was written, demonstrates that the "Promised Land" was for a finite period of time and as the prophets continually warned, the "Promised Land" would be stripped from them because of their refusal to stop their cultic idolatrous worship practices throughout the first two ages of their existence. In 70 AD God allowed the Prince to come with his Roman Army to drive the nation of Israel to the four corners of the earth, and they would remain scattered throughout the earth until God once more will gather the Israelites to Himself. The verses below is how I understand the Hebrew text should be paraphrased in English for this particular passage: -

The Promised Land is an everlasting covenant God made with Israel. It does not mean that god would not remove them for sin (which He has). but ultimately it is their everlasting possession.

YOur writing of the Roman Army makes it appear you hold to the preterist belief that the 66-70 AD siege that began the diaspora fulfills Dan. 9:27. It doesn't. for that prince of the people to come will make a binding agreement with Israel for 7 years and no Roman (read Titus) did that

Now if God intended to give the "land" that Abraham saw with his own eyes as he walked throughout the country that he traversed, then why did God not include Abraham as a recipient in the above verses. It also calls into question, as to what God gave Abraham that God intended to show him. My understanding is that in Genesis 12:1, God in the covenant that He made with Abraham promised to give Abraham the whole earth, i.e. God's intended Earth, that He would show Abraham and his descendants over a prolong period of time. This is the same promise that "Christians" today also believe in, that they will inherit the whole earth. Daniel in Daniel 7:27 also confirms that this is the intended inheritance that Abraham's descendants would also receive.

God never promised Abraham the land, but His seed. Also it was never the whole earth. The land promise of the Abrahamic Covenant was later given specific boundaries, which Israel has yet to posses. The Genesis passage was just the beginning of the confirmation of this promise. It was also reconfirmed to Isaac, then Jacob and also Jesus confirmed it when He walked the earth as well as Paul.

As for the teacher that you say you sit under, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, he is a little older than myself, however, it seems to me that he holds to the traditional misunderstanding of his father that Israel will once more be given back the Promised Land. This may be true in the distant future, but not during the remain present age or during the Millennium Age.

The millenial age is the time of Israel having the kingdom with David as sub king and Jesus as King. Many OT prophecies tell of how the Gentiles will yield to the Jewish nation. Also representatives of the nations must go to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles. And if they don't their nation will get no rain!

Genesis 13:14-17 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land/earth which you see I give to you and/, {that (entity)} I will give to your descendants forever/for a long period of time {whose ending is at a vanishing point of this time particular period time in the future}.

Your parenthetical commentary of what forever means is not in alignment with nearly all Hebrew Scholars! Olam is the term and is the word Jews use for forever or eternal.




.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree with you, nearly 100% - the only comment I will add, is that Paul wrote that the new covenant went into effect with the death of Jesus - but we know from Romans 11 that for now most of Israel is in unbelief, except for a remnant, thus relatively few of them are in their own new covenant - but nevertheless the new covenant is in effect, and we gentiles are grafted into their new covenant, by our faith.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

The rest of your post was right on the money.

Shalom.

I am sorry, but the New Covenant as declared in Jer. 31:31-34 has not gone into effect yet.

Here is the covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If you believe this covenant is now in effect, then you need to show how it is being fulfilled in both houses of Israel. (Israel and Judah)

 

[Jay Ross]

The Promised Land is an everlasting covenant God made with Israel. It does not mean that god would not remove them for sin (which He has). but ultimately it is their everlasting possession.

Dan 7:27 does not say that. It indicates that the saints, i.e. all of the redeemed both Jews and Gentiles, will inherit the whole earth under the heavens.

Your writing of the Roman Army makes it appear you hold to the preterist belief that the 66-70 AD siege that began the diaspora fulfills Dan. 9:27. It doesn't. for that prince of the people to come will make a binding agreement with Israel for 7 years and no Roman (read Titus) did that.

What I wrote and you commented on only fulfils Daniel 9:26b and has no linkage or connection with the next verse which is still a distant future event. The response that you have used is false argument to undermine what I had written, in that your argument is based on what you claim I had said when in fact I made no reference to covenant as presented in verse 27. That was your construct not mine.

God never promised Abraham the land, but His seed. Also it was never the whole earth. The land promise of the Abrahamic Covenant was later given specific boundaries, which Israel has yet to posses. The Genesis passage was just the beginning of the confirmation of this promise. It was also reconfirmed to Isaac, then Jacob and also Jesus confirmed it when He walked the earth as well as Paul.

You are relying on the "Jewish understanding" of the Abrahamic Covenant where their focus is on the possession of the prescribed land in Genesis 15:17-21, which was given in answer to Abraham's question, "How will I know that I will possess/inherit the whole earth?", in Gen 15:8, as God had said in verse 7: -

Gen 15:7: - 7 Then He said to him, "I {am} the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you, this land/the earth, to inherit it/possess."​

Genesis 15:17-21 is a solemn covenant given as a sign for the future generation to confirm that God is indeed intending to give the whole earth as a possession to Abraham and his descendants the whole of God's earth, as I understand it, in the distant future, after He has shown them how they can posses it.

The millenial age is the time of Israel having the kingdom with David as sub king and Jesus as King. Many OT prophecies tell of how the Gentiles will yield to the Jewish nation. Also representatives of the nations must go to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles. And if they don't their nation will get no rain!

This understanding is more in line with the Pre-trib theories of more recent times than what the prophets of the OT wrote as recorded in the OT.

Your parenthetical commentary of what forever means is not in alignment with nearly all Hebrew Scholars! Olam is the term and is the word Jews use for forever or eternal.

Well I am in good company, because the scholars of Jesus' day did not agree with Him either on many points concerning the Kingdom of God.

I am sorry, but the New Covenant as declared in Jer. 31:31-34 has not gone into effect yet.

I agree with what you wrote in the above quote from your next post but your justification for it not being in effect at this present time is somewhat suspect to say the least.

Shalom

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Gods people ? one claims that it's a race, a superior race ? some sort of superior people blessed by God ? Do we Idolise such a people ? or do such claim you should idolise them ?

To me no one is worthy of God but they who know him and serve him.
When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ they were fooled by a group of people who were lost as to God for a start, they were on a Mans works trip devoid of God, for they did not know God for a start in fact.

All this talk about so called Jews today is rubbish, the Jews do not exist and have not for 2000 years in fact.

What claims to be Jews today are rabble that have nothing worthy of God at all because they who claim to be Jews are devoid of God in fact.

This so called Jews do not cut the mustard at all, the only thing that is worthy of the Jews is in the Bible, we have the Old Testament books and this is the only way one could make any claim on be devoted to the OT is that they live to the standard of the OT and have total regard for Holy Moses and if one does not have such a regard for Holy Moses such a one has no hope at all what so ever.
They who claim to be Jews nowadays must abide in such, other than that they are Nothing at all.
Why do people look to the so called Jews ? well they must not have faith in Jesus Christ or they lack in such faith, anyone who Idolised the so called Jews is clearly not born again. for if they knew Jesus Christ is the King of Israel they would abide only in him, one can not serve two masters ?

When Jesus Christ came The only Jews who were worthy of being Israelites were they who had faith in Jesus and Jesus said that Nathaniel was a true Israelite !
Nathaniel is the epitome of what a true Israelite is in fact, Jesus makes a point of such, not to mention what such a one would see. remember what it was that Jesus said that he would see ? The Heavens opened and remember ? the most important thing in the Bible was just about to take place in fact, that one such as he would see.
Only a true Israelite will see such a thing because they are worthy ! of being born again for they are worthy of the Holy Spirit.

Fact is if one does not have the Holy Spirit such a one is lost regardless of you claim to be, Jew etc. this is what one abides in and outside of such is nonsense. some dimwit claiming to be a Jew does not cut it and such never ever did cut it in fact, you had to be more that that you had to be an Israel, worthy of such in fact in deed as proven such as was Jacob when he became Israel ! he earned the Name because he was worthy of such.

 

[Enoch111]

I am sorry, but the New Covenant as declared in Jer. 31:31-34 has not gone into effect yet.

That is COMPLETELY FALSE: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament [Gk diatheke = COVENANT or Testament], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28)

The New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died on the cross (Passover, Nisan 14, AD 30). Therefore the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom by the hand of God. Fifty days later, the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost. And sins were forgiven (remitted) under the New Covenant. There will be a future fulfillment for Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

If Christians do not even have this Bible fact straight, then what should we expect from Jews and unbelievers?

 

[amigo de christo]

That is COMPLETELY FALSE: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament [Gk diatheke = COVENANT or Testament], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28)

The New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died on the cross (Passover, Nisan 14, AD 30). Therefore the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom by the hand of God. Fifty days later, the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost. And sins were forgiven (remitted) under the New Covenant. There will be a future fulfillment for Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

If Christians do not even have this Bible fact straight, then what should we expect from Jews and unbelievers?

You might want to point Ronald to hebrews . chapters eight and ten . Also paul speaks of it in romans
Correct the new covenant began long , long ago . And by the Holy Ghost is shed upon the hearts of the true lambs .
Even in romans pauls speaks of gentiles having , by faith in JESUS of course , which shews the work of the law written on their hearts .
Yep . And its twice told in hebrews . chapter eight and ten . OH the bible is lovely . Yes it is . We should read it much and daily .

 

[Enoch111]

You might want to point Ronald to hebrews . chapters eight and ten . Also paul speaks of it in romans

Correct. But what I really wanted to point out is that the New Covenant or Testament went into effect on the day that Christ died. It will also have a future fulfillment for redeemed and restored Israel, but that's another matter. Sins were remitted under this Covenant beginning in AD 30 (Pentecost), and they continue to be remitted.

 

[Curtis]

I am sorry, but the New Covenant as declared in Jer. 31:31-34 has not gone into effect yet.

Here is the covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If you believe this covenant is now in effect, then you need to show how it is being fulfilled in both houses of Israel. (Israel and Judah)

If there’s no new covenant with Israel for gentiles to be grafted into, per Romans 11, then there’s no salvation ongoing today.

The key is what I wrote from Romans 11, that for now, MOST of Israel and Judah are in unbelief, and so are not in their own new covenant that Jesus put in place - only a small remnant are believers in Jesus.

Thus it s being fulfilled mostly by the gentile church, when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but when the deliverer comes out of Zion, all Israel alive at the time, realizes Jesus is their Messiah, and are saved by faith, and thus enter into that already existing new covenant.

From Liberty University:

At least ten New Testament passages either quote Jeremiah 31:31-34 directly or allude to it. This passage is the longest portion of the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament; the author of Hebrews quoted these four verses from Jeremiah 31 to support his argument about Christ's mediatorial role in the New Covenant (Heb. 8:8-12). And Jeremiah 31:33-34 is quoted in Hebrews 10:16-17 and is alluded to in Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24, where Christ is "the mediator of a new covenant." The words ή καινή διαθήκη are mentioned in four verses on the Lord's Supper (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25). Paul referred to this covenant when he called himself and his fellow workers "servants of a new covenant" (2 Cor. 3:6) and when he referred to the future forgiveness of Israel's sin (Rom. 11:27).

 

[Curtis]

From Liberty University, proving the new covenant Jesus gave us, is the same one in Jeremiah 31:

At least ten New Testament passages either quote Jeremiah 31:31-34 directly or allude to it. This passage is the longest portion of the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament; the author of Hebrews quoted these four verses from Jeremiah 31 to support his argument about Christ's mediatorial role in the New Covenant (Heb. 8:8-12). And Jeremiah 31:33-34 is quoted in Hebrews 10:16-17 and is alluded to in Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24, where Christ is "the mediator of a new covenant." The words ή καινή διαθήκη are mentioned in four verses on the Lord's Supper (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25). Paul referred to this covenant when he called himself and his fellow workers "servants of a new covenant" (2 Cor. 3:6) and when he referred to the future forgiveness of Israel's sin (Rom. 11:27).

 

[APAK]

Ah. Thanks for making this distinction, APAK. As I understand it, you teach that there never was a covenant made with physical Israel in the flesh but only to spiritual Israel from the beginning. Do I understand you correctly?

Yes.....this is the ultimate goal....although there were necessary literal and temporary covenants executed along the way for teaching and development purposes, and some were very stiff and harsh. Iit will all be in spiritual realm in the end. YHWH never intended to restore and fellowship with man on the physical planes of this universe and on the earth. it will all be gone in the end. YHWH can never have a lasting relationship with man in the physical realm. And the 'lake of fire' ON the EARTH will be one of the proofs of this total destruction.