Literal Isreal In End-Times Prophecy

[Hidden In Him]

Yes.....this is the ultimate goal....although there were necessary literal and temporary covenants executed along the way for teaching and development purposes, and some were very stiff and harsh. Iit will all be in spiritual realm in the end. YHWH never intended to restore and fellowship with man on the physical planes of this universe and on the earth. it will all be gone in the end. YHWH can never have a lasting relationship with man in the physical realm. And the 'lake of fire' ON the EARTH will be one of the proofs of this total destruction.

Thanks for the response, APAK. My apologies on letting this thread go. As I notified them in other threads, I actually created this thread to discuss the matter first and foremost with Backlit and Quietthinker. But neither of them bothered to respond, despite numerous attempts to draw their attention to this thread...

But I'll try and get back to it, I promise. Just doing other stuff right now. I also didn't understand Waiting's responses, which rather than ask for a second time for clarification I thought best to just set aside.

God bless,
- H

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dan 7:27 does not say that. It indicates that the saints, i.e. all of the redeemed both Jews and Gentiles, will inherit the whole earth under the heavens.

Except you0 forget we have never been promised a kingdom, but the people of th esaints (Jews in context here) have been promised a kingdom. context still matters in the bible.

What I wrote and you commented on only fulfils Daniel 9:26b and has no linkage or connection with the next verse which is still a distant future event. The response that you have used is false argument to undermine what I had written, in that your argument is based on what you claim I had said when in fact I made no reference to covenant as presented in verse 27. That was your construct not mine.

Well then I apologize for the false presumption. I am not sure then what you believe of this prophecy.

But: Dan. 26 A is fulfilled (Jesus and calvary) 26b and 27 are still future, and not too distant a future.

You are relying on the "Jewish understanding" of the Abrahamic Covenant where their focus is on the possession of the prescribed land in Genesis 15:17-21, which was given in answer to Abraham's question, "How will I know that I will possess/inherit the whole earth?", in Gen 15:8, as God had said in verse 7: -

Gen 15:7: - 7 Then He said to him, "I {am} the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you, this land/the earth, to inherit it/possess."
Genesis 15:17-21 is a solemn covenant given as a sign for the future generation to confirm that God is indeed intending to give the whole earth as a possession to Abraham and his descendants the whole of God's earth, as I understand it, in the distant future, after He has shown them how they can posses it.

That is not true. The land/earth kept in its context refers to the promised land or what we call Israel. to make it read the whole earth is allegorizing this text and redefining it. God spells out the lands He is giving to Abraham and His seed and that was reconfirmed to Isaac and Jacob.

YOu need to show biblical reasons why this goes from the full promised land to the whole earth.

This understanding is more in line with the Pre-trib theories of more recent times than what the prophets of the OT wrote as recorded in the OT.

Well the only thing the NT added top the promises of the OT teachings was how long the kingdom would last! 1,000 years. The fact that Israel will be the centewr of the earth and kingdom with Jesus on the throne is well established in the OT.

Well I am in good company, because the scholars of Jesus' day did not agree with Him either on many points concerning the Kingdom of God.

Well Jesus accepted OLAM as eternal.

I agree with what you wrote in the above quote from your next post but your justification for it not being in effect at this present time is somewhat suspect to say the least

Well this response is humorous! It is not in effect because the terms and conditions God laid out have not happened as written. If that is suspect then how do we trust anything?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That is COMPLETELY FALSE: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament [Gk diatheke = COVENANT or Testament], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28)

The New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died on the cross (Passover, Nisan 14, AD 30). Therefore the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom by the hand of God. Fifty days later, the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost. And sins were forgiven (remitted) under the New Covenant. There will be a future fulfillment for Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

If Christians do not even have this Bible fact straight, then what should we expect from Jews and unbelievers?

So your contention is that the New Covenant as declared in Jeremiah 31 went into effect the day Jesus died on the cross!

So just show me when these facts of the covenant took place:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


1. when did all Israelis have the law of God written in their inward parts?
2. When did all Israelis no longer needed anyone to teach them to know the Lord for ALL of them know the Lord?
3. 3. when did all Israelis have their sins forgiven and forgotten?
4. When did Israel become the people of God again ?

I agree the blood of jesus is the blood of the new covenant. But that does not mean that though He shed His blood- this new covenant as declared by God through Jeremish has gone into effect.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If there’s no new covenant with Israel for gentiles to be grafted into, per Romans 11, then there’s no salvation ongoing today.

The key is what I wrote from Romans 11, that for now, MOST of Israel and Judah are in unbelief, and so are not in their own new covenant that Jesus put in place - only a small remnant are believers in Jesus.

Thus it s being fulfilled mostly by the gentile church, when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but when the deliverer comes out of Zion, all Israel alive at the time, realizes Jesus is their Messiah, and are saved by faith, and thus enter into that already existing new covenant.

From Liberty University:

At least ten New Testament passages either quote Jeremiah 31:31-34 directly or allude to it. This passage is the longest portion of the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament; the author of Hebrews quoted these four verses from Jeremiah 31 to support his argument about Christ's mediatorial role in the New Covenant (Heb. 8:8-12). And Jeremiah 31:33-34 is quoted in Hebrews 10:16-17 and is alluded to in Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24, where Christ is "the mediator of a new covenant." The words ή καινή διαθήκη are mentioned in four verses on the Lord's Supper (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25). Paul referred to this covenant when he called himself and his fellow workers "servants of a new covenant" (2 Cor. 3:6) and when he referred to the future forgiveness of Israel's sin (Rom. 11:27).

It is not the New covenant that we gentiles are grafted into, but the place of blessing. We are grafted into Jesus , but that is not the New covenant. Once again we need to pay attention to what the Bible teaches who the covenant is given to. We are partakers of the benefits of the covenant, that is all.

If God makes a covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah- we gentiles cannot be fulfilling it- even mostly!

And all that Liberty wrote, not one word shows that the terms of the covenant now belong to gentiles, nor do the bible verses.

Just remember this- Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. If a covenant is being mediated, that means it has not gone into effect yet. Just like a contracxt between say a company and the union that represents the employees, if the contract is being mediated- the contract is not in effect yet. The biblical term is the same as the example I just used.

 

[Enoch111]

So just show me when these facts of the covenant took place

I already told you that there is a future fulfillment for redeemed and restored Israel. But the Church is indeed under the New Covenant. Study the book of Hebrews.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I already told you that there is a future fulfillment for redeemed and restored Israel. But the Church is indeed under the New Covenant. Study the book of Hebrews.

Well if you can show me a mediator is mediator a covenant that is in effect, then I am open to agree with you. but teh church is receiving the benefits of the covenant, but are not part of that covenant. there is a huge difference between the two.

We are foretold in the old testament that we would be a people called out of the Gentiles. We belong to Jesus. Israel belongs to the Father. Since Pnetecost we are both saved the same way, but the covenant is not fulfilled yet nor has it gone into effect yet.

If you believe it is in effect then list Jer. 31:31-34 and then simply show me which parts of that coenant are in effect.

I agree the terms of the covenant ansd the price of the covenant from Gods side are settled. Now for 2,000 years Jesus has been mediating with the houses of Israel and Judah to accept teh terms of the covenant.

 

[Jay Ross]

Except you0 forget we have never been promised a kingdom, but the people of th esaints (Jews in context here) have been promised a kingdom. context still matters in the bible.

. . .

Well then I apologize for the false presumption. I am not sure then what you believe of this prophecy.

But: Dan. 26 A is fulfilled (Jesus and calvary) 26b and 27 are still future, and not too distant a future.

. . .

That is not true. The land/earth kept in its context refers to the promised land or what we call Israel. to make it read the whole earth is allegorizing this text and redefining it. God spells out the lands He is giving to Abraham and His seed and that was reconfirmed to Isaac and Jacob.

YOu need to show biblical reasons why this goes from the full promised land to the whole earth.

. . . .

Well the only thing the NT added top the promises of the OT teachings was how long the kingdom would last! 1,000 years. The fact that Israel will be the centewr of the earth and kingdom with Jesus on the throne is well established in the OT.

. . . .

Well Jesus accepted OLAM as eternal.

. . . .

Well this response is humorous! It is not in effect because the terms and conditions God laid out have not happened as written. If that is suspect then how do we trust anything?

Well, Ronald, truth is what we believe is truth, and many depend on their truth being right as you have spoken about about in your thread on the subject of your stock trading.

The circular aspect of your/our discussion on the prophecies with respect to the future of Israel is not progressing this conversation and I am losing the desire to continue.

As in stock trading, our truth as to what is the true situation is found in the fruits of the resulting outcomes like the case when trading on the stock exchange. Sometimes what we believe is true is actually true, but often when the outcome is not going as we believe it should, we have to cut our loses and change what we believe and act accordingly.

Our respective truths are very different based in the source information.

Shalom

 

[Curtis]

It is not the New covenant that we gentiles are grafted into, but the place of blessing. We are grafted into Jesus , but that is not the New covenant. Once again we need to pay attention to what the Bible teaches who the covenant is given to. We are partakers of the benefits of the covenant, that is all.

If God makes a covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah- we gentiles cannot be fulfilling it- even mostly!

And all that Liberty wrote, not one word shows that the terms of the covenant now belong to gentiles, nor do the bible verses.

Just remember this- Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. If a covenant is being mediated, that means it has not gone into effect yet. Just like a contracxt between say a company and the union that represents the employees, if the contract is being mediated- the contract is not in effect yet. The biblical term is the same as the example I just used.

The scriptures cited prove unequivocally that the new covenant that took affect at Jesus’ death, is the covenant described in Jeremiah 31.

Paul makes clear in Ronan’s 11 that being grafted into the olive tree of Israel, is about salvation by faith, which means entering into the new covenant.

But thanks for proving most people believe what they want, and don’t let inconvenient scripture get in their way...

Hebrews 8:6 says Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, founded on better promises, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show which new covenant Jesus is mediator of.

That is irrefutable.

 

[Curtis]

Yes.....this is the ultimate goal....although there were necessary literal and temporary covenants executed along the way for teaching and development purposes, and some were very stiff and harsh. Iit will all be in spiritual realm in the end. YHWH never intended to restore and fellowship with man on the physical planes of this universe and on the earth. it will all be gone in the end. YHWH can never have a lasting relationship with man in the physical realm. And the 'lake of fire' ON the EARTH will be one of the proofs of this total destruction.

The new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel, meaning national Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel, as shown by the fact that Jesus came originally ONLY for “ the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel” and told His apostles to “avoid the gentiles and go only to the HOUSE of Israel”.

In Hebrews 8:6 it says Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant, founded on better promises, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show which new covenant Jesus is mediator of: the one with the HOUSE of Israel.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel and with the HOUSE of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Romans 11 makes clear that gentiles are grafted by faith into the covenant of national Israel, because it says all the Jews except a remnant are in unbelief and are cut off of their own new covenant because of that, and that they are currently ungodly until they see the deliverer come out of Zion, Jesus, then all Israel alive to see Him return, will realize He is their Messiah, and believe, and be saved.

This is obviously national Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel.

The new covenant is spiritual, it involves regeneration of the heart, but it was brought to national Israel by their Jewish Messiah, and that is why gentiles must be grafted into it by faith - there is no such thing as a church covenant.

 

[Waiting on him]

The new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel, meaning national Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel, as shown by the fact that Jesus came originally ONLY for “ the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel” and told His apostles to “avoid the gentiles and go only to the HOUSE of Israel”.

In Hebrews 8:6 it says Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant, founded on better promises, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show which new covenant Jesus is mediator of: the one with the HOUSE of Israel.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel and with the HOUSE of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Romans 11 makes clear that gentiles are grafted by faith into the covenant of national Israel, because it says all the Jews except a remnant are in unbelief and are cut off of their own new covenant because of that, and that they are currently ungodly until they see the deliverer come out of Zion, Jesus, then all Israel alive to see Him return, will realize He is their Messiah, and believe, and be saved.

This is obviously national Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel.

The new covenant is spiritual, it involves regeneration of the heart, but it was brought to national Israel by their Jewish Messiah, and that is why gentiles must be grafted into it by faith - there is no such thing as a church covenant.

What of the Jews that have died in their sins for the last two thousand years? How will they see Him come out of Zion?

 

[Waiting on him]

Seems no one is capable of answering the question in post #70, Paul states that all of Israel will be saved, but how is this possible when billions of Jews have died in their sins over the past two thousand years.

One possible answer could be that, Israel isn’t what most here have concluded. Unless there is some way to be reconciled to God outside of Christ. If so please post the supporting scripture.

thanks.

 

[APAK]

The new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel, meaning national Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel, as shown by the fact that Jesus came originally ONLY for “ the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel” and told His apostles to “avoid the gentiles and go only to the HOUSE of Israel”.

In Hebrews 8:6 it says Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant, founded on better promises, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show which new covenant Jesus is mediator of: the one with the HOUSE of Israel.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel and with the HOUSE of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Romans 11 makes clear that gentiles are grafted by faith into the covenant of national Israel, because it says all the Jews except a remnant are in unbelief and are cut off of their own new covenant because of that, and that they are currently ungodly until they see the deliverer come out of Zion, Jesus, then all Israel alive to see Him return, will realize He is their Messiah, and believe, and be saved.

This is obviously national Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel.

The new covenant is spiritual, it involves regeneration of the heart, but it was brought to national Israel by their Jewish Messiah, and that is why gentiles must be grafted into it by faith - there is no such thing as a church covenant.

Curtis...
Been through this argument of your forever it seems with many folks now. Speaking of Romans Chapter 11,: And when did YHWH graft in the other nations on the tree of life? I suspect immediately and concurrently/ consecutively along with lost (1/3, remnant) sheep of ethnic (not national - there was not a national Israel at that time - vanished around 400 BC) Israel, especially after 70 AD...for obvious reasons...the mystery spoken of in Romans, was when the nations become Christianized many centuries ago, the nations were 'full' or becoming 'full.' This is how the remnant of Israel who mostly emigrated (past tense) into other countries and came to Christ like any person. YHWH knew to touch and save the remaining of the house of Israel and it is a 'mystery' to us and normal business to him.

Somehow this scripture now, since the 20th century, is understood and catapulted in to the 21st century and maybe beyond; for a theory that is so offensive to what Christ actually did on earth - his purpose to save both the lost of Israel and other nations under the SAME new covenant under grace and faith.

You want to propel a new kingdom and new neo-tribe nation of Israel with a different covenant in the last generation before Christ returns for some reason, not based on scripture if really examined in depth. This grand deceptive theory developed only really since the 1800s

The new covenant in NOT only with the house of Israel. The remnant still remaining on the tree are sharing it today under this last and new covenant today, as one Kingdom, with all other nations who are all the SAME believers in Christ. You really do not know this, do you.

THERE IS NO NATIONAL ISRAEL, and NO NATIONAL ISRAEL COVENANT operating TODAY. The nation of Israel died 2400 years ago. Christ came for the remnant and then to other nations especially by the apostles and later by other disciples en masse. The mission of Christ was accomplished then for both the lost of the house of Israel and the launching off to other nations, as scripture says.

A little more about the new covenant..
1. It is only one time explicitly stated in the OT by Jeremiah Chapter 31.
2. Isaiah speak of the everlasting covenant of peace. It is inclusive and integrates foreigners.
3. Jeremiah speaks to the covenant as making the Torah international...he really meant to be placed in the hearts of ALL men.
4. Ezekiel looks at the covenant as a spiritual surgery, with radical changes to the heart...he got in right 100%....this is not just for a select of people called literal, ethnic Israel! It is for all believers IN CHRIST, since the day of Pentecost
5. These prophets including Zechariah, all knew this new covenant was the culmination and climax of all the previous covenants only given to the Hebrews/Israel...it was bigger than them, it involved the entire peoples of the earth. It was the answer and fulfillment of the grand promise by YHWH to Abraham.

The new covenant is the New Testament. I hope it does not belong exclusively to an imaginary national Israel today. God forbid.

There's a lot more I can add...no point at this point.

Are you a heathen. if not, stop calling yourself and other believer gentiles. I'm not a heathen even though there are mostly heathen nations today, and including the political State of Israel. You know in the Bible, 99.5 % of them have it wrong in this area.

The word 'gentile' was inserted when the Catholics and Latins added into scripture to contract those of Israel with non Israelites during the time of Christ who were heathen idol worshipping nations in the main. Since the destruction of Jerusalem especially in 70 AD this has no honest meaning.

The Greek 'Ethnos' and its variants mean nation(s) and other foreign nationals of a different ethnic origin. So today, this word gentile for ethnos is hijacked and used exclusively to separate the (fake) Jews of today as being of the nation of the original Israel versus the rest, not of true Israel. And it fits well with your theory that the new covenant is not for the gentiles, the heathen even if they are in Christ. This is ridiculous, deceptive and evil.

As you can tell by now, I sometimes do not reply to this type nonsense theory as yours, or I unload at times, even with a ton of scriptural commentary for support. And when I do, the opposition cannot reply in kind. Not once..It makes you wonder...they just fill their posts with a list of scripture without explanation or commentary...as you have done....or eject chaff to deflect...if it get under their skin..

Blessings,

APAK

 

[Waiting on him]

It truly is sad, for several centuries now billions of professing Christians waiting on a boat that just isn’t coming.

We are the body of Christ.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

If there’s no new covenant with Israel for gentiles to be grafted into, per Romans 11, then there’s no salvation ongoing today.

The key is what I wrote from Romans 11, that for now, MOST of Israel and Judah are in unbelief, and so are not in their own new covenant that Jesus put in place - only a small remnant are believers in Jesus.

Thus it s being fulfilled mostly by the gentile church, when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but when the deliverer comes out of Zion, all Israel alive at the time, realizes Jesus is their Messiah, and are saved by faith, and thus enter into that already existing new covenant.

From Liberty University:

At least ten New Testament passages either quote Jeremiah 31:31-34 directly or allude to it. This passage is the longest portion of the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament; the author of Hebrews quoted these four verses from Jeremiah 31 to support his argument about Christ's mediatorial role in the New Covenant (Heb. 8:8-12). And Jeremiah 31:33-34 is quoted in Hebrews 10:16-17 and is alluded to in Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24, where Christ is "the mediator of a new covenant." The words ή καινή διαθήκη are mentioned in four verses on the Lord's Supper (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25). Paul referred to this covenant when he called himself and his fellow workers "servants of a new covenant" (2 Cor. 3:6) and when he referred to the future forgiveness of Israel's sin (Rom. 11:27).

Being Grafted in ? to what Israel ? now what does that truly mean ?

Israel is all about Nathaniel as Jesus Christ point him out as the epitome of a true Israelite. It is not a berth right at all as people were banished from the Tribes in fact. So it's all about one who serves God ! and no one can truly come to the Father but through his only begotten Son, end of story, so the ones who claim to be anything other are Lost.

Fact is the Jews are lost and Islam is lost as to God, they are carnal worldly dupes peddling Mans works, they are a Curse to God.

Who is it that is being grafted in ? if you support Hitler's racial BS one would be claiming it's all about a Race ? It was never about a Race, it was all about serving God, remember Jews got banished from the Tribes.
If one could point out that they have a blood line relating to the Tribe of Israel what % would you be ? 2000 years has gone by and what is a generation ? so if one had 10% one would be lucky to boast of that.
So as to being Grafted in, to what ? a so called Race C'mon ! it was all about the Holy Spirit from the beginning as Jesus Christ said I am the Alpha and the Omega. Who is Jesus Christ, yep he is the Alpha and the Omega and he is the King of Israel ! bingo ! jack pot you have it all right their !
The whole thing is all about Jesus Christ and you must serve and abide in him as he is Emmanuel God with us ! and we in him. their is nothing other at all and never will be. only idiots look to the 2ed coming and the reason why they are so wound up about such nonsense nowadays is because they are not truly born again, they seek but they do not have ? so they piss on about a Mans works and the carnal so called Israel that is a whitewashed tomb.

When the day comes of the true Second Coming it's Hellfire and all the delusions will be burnt up, everyone will be flat on your arse with nothing at all to boast about at all, reality will sink in and you will be calling out to God in fact, such will be wondering what happened, well it will be a reality check. Oh my we have rejected Jesus Christ ! for vain things of this world.

I point to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ?
Now who is pointing to the so called Jews for their salvation ? oh the State of Israel has been rebirthed ? BS ! Only a carnal dupe would swallow such vain dribble. So called Jews and so called Zionist all of who reject Jesus Christ in fact, so C'mon wake up that such is a work of Satan's delusions.

If it's not in Jesus Christ it's all in vain.

 

[Curtis]

Being Grafted in ? to what Israel ? now what does that truly mean ?

Israel is all about Nathaniel as Jesus Christ point him out as the epitome of a true Israelite. It is not a berth right at all as people were banished from the Tribes in fact. So it's all about one who serves God ! and no one can truly come to the Father but through his only begotten Son, end of story, so the ones who claim to be anything other are Lost.

Fact is the Jews are lost and Islam is lost as to God, they are carnal worldly dupes peddling Mans works, they are a Curse to God.

Who is it that is being grafted in ? if you support Hitler's racial BS one would be claiming it's all about a Race ? It was never about a Race, it was all about serving God, remember Jews got banished from the Tribes.
If one could point out that they have a blood line relating to the Tribe of Israel what % would you be ? 2000 years has gone by and what is a generation ? so if one had 10% one would be lucky to boast of that.
So as to being Grafted in, to what ? a so called Race C'mon ! it was all about the Holy Spirit from the beginning as Jesus Christ said I am the Alpha and the Omega. Who is Jesus Christ, yep he is the Alpha and the Omega and he is the King of Israel ! bingo ! jack pot you have it all right their !
The whole thing is all about Jesus Christ and you must serve and abide in him as he is Emmanuel God with us ! and we in him. their is nothing other at all and never will be. only idiots look to the 2ed coming and the reason why they are so wound up about such nonsense nowadays is because they are not truly born again, they seek but they do not have ? so they piss on about a Mans works and the carnal so called Israel that is a whitewashed tomb.

When the day comes of the true Second Coming it's Hellfire and all the delusions will be burnt up, everyone will be flat on your arse with nothing at all to boast about at all, reality will sink in and you will be calling out to God in fact, such will be wondering what happened, well it will be a reality check. Oh my we have rejected Jesus Christ ! for vain things of this world.

I point to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ?
Now who is pointing to the so called Jews for their salvation ? oh the State of Israel has been rebirthed ? BS ! Only a carnal dupe would swallow such vain dribble. So called Jews and so called Zionist all of who reject Jesus Christ in fact, so C'mon wake up that such is a work of Satan's delusions.

If it's not in Jesus Christ it's all in vain.

You really have no clue what you’re talking about, you really need to read the Bible, instead of someone’s proof texts.

Paul wrote that God has NOT cast out his people, the Jews.

Jesus brought the new covenant to the House of Israel, and gentiles are grafted in by faith, that is crystal clear in scripture.

The messiah is Jewish, He came only for His own elect nation, the House of Israel, and only because most of them rejected their own messiah, was salvation opened up to us gentiles, and the new covenant is still with the Jews, the house of Israel, and we get grafted in by our faith in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus.

What of the Jews that have died in their sins for the last two thousand years? How will they see Him come out of Zion?

Paul didn’t say every Jew that ever lived will be saved. On the contrary he lamented those that won’t be saved because they didn’t believe.

The obvious answer was already given by me: Paul wrote in Romans 11 that when the deliverer comes out of Zion, all of Israel will be saved, which means all those Israelites alive at the time Jesus returns, will see Him, realize He’s their Messiah, and be saved by faith - it doesn’t include all Jews who ever lived.

Read revelation 1:7 and Zechariah 14 and you’ll know why when Jesus returns all the Jews will realize He’s messiah, and be saved then, because they believe.

It is not the New covenant that we gentiles are grafted into, but the place of blessing. We are grafted into Jesus , but that is not the New covenant. Once again we need to pay attention to what the Bible teaches who the covenant is given to. We are partakers of the benefits of the covenant, that is all.

If God makes a covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah- we gentiles cannot be fulfilling it- even mostly!

And all that Liberty wrote, not one word shows that the terms of the covenant now belong to gentiles, nor do the bible verses.

Just remember this- Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. If a covenant is being mediated, that means it has not gone into effect yet. Just like a contracxt between say a company and the union that represents the employees, if the contract is being mediated- the contract is not in effect yet. The biblical term is the same as the example I just used.

That’s so obviously wrong, given that Paul said the new covenant went into effect when Jesus died.

And Hebrews says Jesus IS, not will be, the mediator of the new covenant, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show what covenant He IS the mediator of.

 

[Curtis]

Except you0 forget we have never been promised a kingdom, but the people of th esaints (Jews in context here) have been promised a kingdom. context still matters in the bibl

There is one gospel - not one offered to the Jews, and another gospel offered to gentiles - there is one gospel of the kingdom, aka the gospel of Christ.

Christians are translated into the kingdom, Colossians 1:13, and in Acts 20:25, and Acts 28:30-31 Paul went forth preaching the kingdom, (and he is the apostle to the gentiles), and Paul also said that through much tribulation we will enter the kingdom, Acts 14:22 - then John in Revelation said:
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If we are not in the kingdom, we are not a Christian, and that’s in context, and biblical fact.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, Ronald, truth is what we believe is truth, and many depend on their truth being right as you have spoken about about in your thread on the subject of your stock trading.

The circular aspect of your/our discussion on the prophecies with respect to the future of Israel is not progressing this conversation and I am losing the desire to continue.

As in stock trading, our truth as to what is the true situation is found in the fruits of the resulting outcomes like the case when trading on the stock exchange. Sometimes what we believe is true is actually true, but often when the outcome is not going as we believe it should, we have to cut our loses and change what we believe and act accordingly.

Our respective truths are very different based in the source information.

Shalom

Well I don't trade stocks so I don't know what you are referring to.

And sorry there is only one truth. We both believe we have it. That is what makes a debate go round.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You really have no clue what you’re talking about, you really need to read the Bible, instead of someone’s proof texts.

Paul wrote that God has NOT cast out his people, the Jews.

Jesus brought the new covenant to the House of Israel, and gentiles are grafted in by faith, that is crystal clear in scripture.

The messiah is Jewish, He came only for His own elect nation, the House of Israel, and only because most of them rejected their own messiah, was salvation opened up to us gentiles, and the new covenant is still with the Jews, the house of Israel, and we get grafted in by our faith in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus.




Paul didn’t say every Jew that ever lived will be saved. On the contrary he lamented those that won’t be saved because they didn’t believe.

The obvious answer was already given by me: Paul wrote in Romans 11 that when the deliverer comes out of Zion, all of Israel will be saved, which means all those Israelites alive at the time Jesus returns, will see Him, realize He’s their Messiah, and be saved by faith - it doesn’t include all Jews who ever lived.

Read revelation 1:7 and Zechariah 14 and you’ll know why when Jesus returns all the Jews will realize He’s messiah, and be saved then, because they believe.

That’s so obviously wrong, given that Paul said the new covenant went into effect when Jesus died.

And Hebrews says Jesus IS, not will be, the mediator of the new covenant, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show what covenant He IS the mediator of.

Well your insults will not endear me to consider you a serious Christian willing to discuss. I am willing to wager I have read the Bible many more times than you have as well, both in English and in doing linguistic studies!

Right now we are seeing the remnant of Jews and not all Israel. One day the entire nation of Israel living will get saved. That is Scripture as I have posted.

If the new covenant is in effect, then please show us what parts of Jeremiah 31:31-34 are in effect right now. that alone is the new covenant of the bible.

I never said all Jews from all time will be saved. that is you misreading me.

Also teh nation of Israel believes before the events of Rev. 1:7 and Zech 14. The basis for jesus second coming is all Israel crying out the words of Matt. 23:

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

If Paul said it went into effect when Jesus died, please show me where in Scripture.

Obviously, you do not know the role of a mediator. I agree 100% Jesus IS the mediator of the New Covenant. But you forget that if a covenant, contract or agreement is in effect, oneno longer needs a mediator to mediate, for it has been agreed upon.

Let us look at the covenant again :

Jeremiah 31:33-34
King James Version

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Your contention is that the new covenant is now in effect and it began after Jesus died. So the "after those days" according to you I assume encompasses teh time of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

1. The Covenant is with all Israel (house of Israel means all) And according to Ezekiel, in the last days god restores the two kingdoms to one.

2. So when did all Israel get the law put in their inward parts

3. When did Israel people Gods people again in practice.

4. when did all Israel come to know the Lord?

Show me when these went into effect and I will gladly repent in sackcloth and ashes (well at least virtual).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The scriptures cited prove unequivocally that the new covenant that took affect at Jesus’ death, is the covenant described in Jeremiah 31.

Paul makes clear in Ronan’s 11 that being grafted into the olive tree of Israel, is about salvation by faith, which means entering into the new covenant.

But thanks for proving most people believe what they want, and don’t let inconvenient scripture get in their way...

Hebrews 8:6 says Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, founded on better promises, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show which new covenant Jesus is mediator of.

That is irrefutable.

I agree 100% that Hebrews 8 shows Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. I am not disputing that Scripture in the least.

What I dispute is your understanding of what the role of a mediator is. Do you even know?

If the New covenant went into effect after Jesus death (and I assume resurrection) then please answer the following questions after I post the Biblical words of the New Covenant once again:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
King James Version

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1. Am I correct in assuming that to you "after those days" refers to the days of jesus death and resurrection?

2. When did god write His law in the inward part of all Israel after Jesus death?

3. When did all of Israel come to know the Lord after the death of Jesus? It does not say just those that believe- but this Hebraism means every single person of Israel will know the Lord! When did that happen?

Show me when these things happened and I will agree with you that the blessings bestowed upon the gentiles as prophesied in the Old and fulfilled in the new were a hidden unwritten part of the New Covenant.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is one gospel - not one offered to the Jews, and another gospel offered to gentiles - there is one gospel of the kingdom, aka the gospel of Christ.

Christians are translated into the kingdom, Colossians 1:13, and in Acts 20:25, and Acts 28:30-31 Paul went forth preaching the kingdom, (and he is the apostle to the gentiles), and Paul also said that through much tribulation we will enter the kingdom, Acts 14:22 - then John in Revelation said:
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If we are not in the kingdom, we are not a Christian, and that’s in context, and biblical fact.

I never even hinted that there are two gospels. We do not preach the gospel of the kingdom, we preach the gospel of salvation.

The gospel of the kingdom that was preached early on in Jesus ministry and John the Baptists ministry is not the gospel we preach. They were announcing the Messianic kingdom had arrived and Israel could have the long awaited kingdom.

alsop thew gospel of the kingdom preached during the tribulation period is not a gospel for salvation- but as it is written in Matthew it is preached as a testimony against the nations.

Yes we are translated into the Kingdom of God. that is absolutely 100% correct! But the kingdom of God is not the same as the Millenial Kingdom. The millenial kingdom is a time bounded part of the eternal kingdom we have been translated into, but the Millenial Kingdom is the Kingdom God has promised He will give to Israel. That kingdom is on earth while the Kingdom of God is the heavenly kingdom where we are already seated!