Literal Isreal In End-Times Prophecy

[Curtis]

Rev. 11 is simply an announcement that the kingdoms now belong to the Lord. He has taken them back from Satan-the god of this world.

REv. 19 is when Jesus returns to Petra- fiughts the antichrist and his armies back to Jerusalem, defeats and kills him, and makes his voctory ascent up the mount of Olives!

Except Revelation 11 is the mid trib point, when the mark of the beast is given for 42 months, and the A/c makes war with the saints and wears them out for 3.5 years

If the new covenant is in effect, then please show us what parts of Jeremiah 31:31-34 are in effect right now. that alone is the new covenant of the bible.

The new covenant took effect with the death of the testator, Jesus, as it is just like a legal document, a last will and TESTAMENT of Jesus Christ:

To whit:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

The Hebrew text states that the New Testament was put into effect with the death of Jesus. Testament = covenant.

Tell me, is the New Testament in effect?

Starting in Hebrews 8:6, it states Jesus IS, not will be, the mediator of the new covenant, then cites Jeremiah 31, which describes the NEW covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, to show which new covenant Jesus IS the mediator of.

The new covenant is in place now, and by faith and repentance, believers in Jesus enter the covenant now, the Holy Spirt indwells them, and are spiritually reborn, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Jeremiah 31.

Currently only an elect remnant of Israel believes and has entered that new covenant, and its mostly the gentiles in it now, who are a wild olive tree, and must therefore be grafted onto the good olive tree as part of that priocess.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Everyone born again has Gods law in their circumcised heart, and IS, not will be, in the new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah.

 

[Curtis]

The new covenant in NOT only with the house of Israel. The remnant still remaining on the tree are sharing it today under this last and new covenant today, as one Kingdom, with all other nations who are all the SAME believers in Christ. You really do not know this, do you.

No, it’s not just with the HOUSE of Israel, it’s also with the HOUSE of Judah , and with no one else.

Gentiles have to grafted onto the olive tree by faith, and that’s how they get included.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

And there is no old covenant - scripture is clear that the new covenant replaces the old one, which is ended.

Yes we are translated into the Kingdom of God. that is absolutely 100% correct! But the kingdom of God is not the same as the Millenial Kingdom. The millenial kingdom is a time bounded part of the eternal kingdom we have been translated into, but the Millenial Kingdom is the Kingdom God has promised He will give to Israel. That kingdom is on earth while the Kingdom of God is the heavenly kingdom where we are already seated!

There is only one kingdom. It is manifested now spiritually because the king Dwells in us, but that same kingdom will manifest physically when Jesus returns, and rules the nations with a rod of Iron.

Jesus acknowledges that very fact when He saiid, THY KINGDOM COME.... ON EARTH, as it (currently) is IN HEAVEN.

The kingdom that is spiritually in heaven, and also spiritually in believers, will come down to earth when Jesus returns.

alsop thew gospel of the kingdom preached during the tribulation period is not a gospel for salvation- but as it is written in Matthew it is preached as a testimony against the nations.

There’s one gospel, which is called the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of Christ, etc, and only one kingdom, because there’s only one king.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Except Revelation 11 is the mid trib point, when the mark of the beast is given for 42 months, and the A/c makes war with the saints and wears them out for 3.5 years


The new covenant took effect with the death of the testator, Jesus, as it is just like a legal document, a last will and TESTAMENT of Jesus Christ:

To whit:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

The Hebrew text states that the New Testament was put into effect with the death of Jesus. Testament = covenant.

Tell me, is the New Testament in effect?

Starting in Hebrews 8:6, it states Jesus IS, not will be, the mediator of the new covenant, then cites Jeremiah 31, which describes the NEW covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, to show which new covenant Jesus IS the mediator of.

The new covenant is in place now, and by faith and repentance, believers in Jesus enter the covenant now, the Holy Spirt indwells them, and are spiritually reborn, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Jeremiah 31.

Currently only an elect remnant of Israel believes and has entered that new covenant, and its mostly the gentiles in it now, who are a wild olive tree, and must therefore be grafted onto the good olive tree as part of that priocess.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Everyone born again has Gods law in their circumcised heart, and IS, not will be, in the new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah.

Well once again, I am asking you to to show me when the New covenant declared by god in Jeremiah 31:31-34 went into effect?

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


I agree that every born again saint has the Holy Spirit indwelling them. We learn the law of christ (not the Mosaic Law) as we study to show ourselves a[proved.

But Jeremiah describes all the details of the New covenant. Simply show by evidence when it went into effect.

1. It is with the whole house of Israel and Judah
2. It is made with a group whose Fathers broke the first covenant in the desert after leading them out of Egypt.
3. The people in #1&2 will ALL have the law of God written in their hearts.
4. They will be his ehtnos (people) and He will be their God
5. Every one of this group from 1&2 will know the Lord.

so when did this covenant go into effect.

I agree Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. but is there is a mediator- the covenant has yet to go into effect.
I agree that the covenant has been purchased and approved by God (one side)

But show me where Gentiles are mentioned in the New covenant?

Who was the Book of HEBREWS written to???" (hint- third word back from the question marks)

Show me with real evidence when the covenant as written went into effect and I will agree with you and recant my position.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, it’s not just with the HOUSE of Israel, it’s also with the HOUSE of Judah , and with no one else.

Gentiles have to grafted onto the olive tree by faith, and that’s how they get included.

YOu do realize you contradicted yourself. First statement is 100% right. Second statement is 100% wrong!

The olive tree is not the covenant, but the place of blessing that we are grafted into.

Starting in Hebrews 8:6, it states Jesus IS, not will be, the mediator of the new covenant, then cites Jeremiah 31, which describes the NEW covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, to show which new covenant Jesus IS the mediator of.

and once again you do not understand who a mediator is and what they do!

mesitēs (Key)

1. one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
   
   
2. a medium of communication, arbitrator
   

Jesus is the mediator of the covenant- which mean both sides have not agreed yet to the terms of the covenant. In the case of the new covenant it is the house of Israel (restored) that has yet to agree, so jesus is still intervening. Once ISrael accepts the covenant (death and REsurrection of Messiah) then the covenant goes into effect!

 

[Brakelite]

Hidden. Hi. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this, other matters have occupied the little bit of head space my aged cranium will allow for such complicated and controversial topics. As I said previously, I don't see Israel as having been replaced, but rather the true Israel all along having received the promise. Matthew made it clear throughout his gospel that from his perspective, Matthew considered Jesus as having fulfilled the name Israel, the prophecies finding their fulfillment in Him, and his posterity after Him. Several scriptures come to mind where Matthew demonstrated this.
In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..."
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people. But did Israel live up to that name? I ask because few people realise or understand that the covenant God made with Israel was not unconditional.
The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto Himself, as He hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in His ways. And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord.” Deuteronomy 28:9, 10
Did Israel keep God's commandments? No. Was the covenant kept, yes it was, but Israel, the nation, disqualified herself through disobedience. The covenant however was kept with He who lived up to the name of victor... Jesus. Matthew again...
KJV Matthew 2:15
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Note the double application. First to the nation, which broke the covenant therefore failed to receive the promise, then to Jesus who kept the covenant on behalf of those who have the faith of Abraham. The old covenant wasn't made obsolete because God reneged on a promise, but because Israel did.
KJV Exodus 19:8
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
They didn't... Therefore Israel broke the covenant. The covenant was everlasting...if Israel obeyed God. Remained faithful. I don't know why people can believe that after the fall... And after Calvary... God no longer required obedience.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Hidden. Hi. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this, other matters have occupied the little bit of head space my aged cranium will allow for such complicated and controversial topics. As I said previously, I don't see Israel as having been replaced, but rather the true Israel all along having received the promise. Matthew made it clear throughout his gospel that from his perspective, Matthew considered Jesus as having fulfilled the name Israel, the prophecies finding their fulfillment in Him, and his posterity after Him. Several scriptures come to mind where Matthew demonstrated this.
In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..."
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people. But did Israel live up to that name? I ask because few people realise or understand that the covenant God made with Israel was not unconditional.
The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto Himself, as He hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in His ways. And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord.” Deuteronomy 28:9, 10
Did Israel keep God's commandments? No. Was the covenant kept, yes it was, but Israel, the nation, disqualified herself through disobedience. The covenant however was kept with He who lived up to the name of victor... Jesus. Matthew again...
KJV Matthew 2:15
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Note the double application. First to the nation, which broke the covenant therefore failed to receive the promise, then to Jesus who kept the covenant on behalf of those who have the faith of Abraham. The old covenant wasn't made obsolete because God reneged on a promise, but because Israel did.
KJV Exodus 19:8
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
They didn't... Therefore Israel broke the covenant. The covenant was everlasting...if Israel obeyed God. Remained faithful. I don't know why people can believe that after the fall... And after Calvary... God no longer required obedience.

The only people worthy of the Name Israel when Jesus came became Christians, fact is the rest were not worthy at all, because they were duped by the works of Man.
The facts remain today, one is Born again or not, one abides in Jesus or not regardless of who one claims to be.
People who make claims of Race or Tribe are morons. fact is that the OT people were banished from the Tribe. even some idiots left and came back but they did not inherit.

 

[Curtis]

Now here is a tremendous post. I will quote the passages in full for further reference. I think they need to be addressed:

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” 9 And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always.”

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?” 35 “Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:1-36)
______________

I will make this Question #3: Does not the following verse say that true spiritual eyesight will be restored to literal Israel after the fulness of the Gentiles has finally come to God?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Good points - some more to consider:

Jeremiah 31 states that the new covenant will still be with the HOUSE of Israel and the HOUSE of Judah.

To prove this means the nation of Israel, Jesus originally came only for the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel, and told the apostles not to go the way of the gentiles, but go only to the HOUSE of Israel.

This new covenant went into effect with the death of Jesus, as Hebrews 9 makes clear:

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

And Hebrews 8 states Jesus IS, the mediator of the new covenant, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show what new covenant He IS mediator of:

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

So unlike what some believe, the new covenant is in effect now, and it’s with the HOUSE of Israel, not with so-called spiritual Israel - which is proof God isn’t done with the nation of Israel, just as Paul so clearly stated.

Shalom.

 

[Truman]

Good points - some more to consider:

Jeremiah 31 states that the new covenant will still be with the HOUSE of Israel and the HOUSE of Judah.

To prove this means the nation of Israel, Jesus originally came only for the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel, and told the apostles not to go the way of the gentiles, but go only to the HOUSE of Israel.

This new covenant went into effect with the death of Jesus, as Hebrews 9 makes clear:

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

And Hebrews 8 states Jesus IS, the mediator of the new covenant, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show what new covenant He IS mediator of:

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

So unlike what some believe, the new covenant is in effect now, and it’s with the HOUSE of Israel, not with so-called spiritual Israel - which is proof God isn’t done with the nation of Israel, just as Paul so clearly stated.

Shalom.

Shalom.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Scripture says He is the Only Wise God, and I no longer put trust in the intelligence of men, including my own.

hmmmm, do you think that might be the reason I didn't respond to your thread on Literal Israel?

Ok, Quiet. Here's the thread again : )

Are you insinuating that because the wisdom of God is higher than man's wisdom that we no longer should even discuss the scriptures together, or are you insinuating than I'm not capable of understanding your answers? It was created primarily to discuss this with you and Backlit, so which one is it?

Will you deliberately not answer me again with an evasive question of your own? Maybe something like "What do you think?" Or will you actually answer the questions and we can finally have a discussion on those passages? The thread wasn't posted in a mean spirit, just an honest one. What is the Seventh Day Adventist response to the specific questions posed in the OP?

God bless,
- H

 

[quietthinker]

Ok, Quiet. Here's the thread again : )

Are you insinuating that because the wisdom of God is higher than man's wisdom that we no longer should even discuss the scriptures together, or are you insinuating than I'm not capable of understanding your answers? It was created primarily to discuss this with you and Backlit, so which one is it?

Will you deliberately not answer me again with an evasive question of your own? Maybe something like "What do you think?" Or will you actually answer the questions and we can finally have a discussion on those passages? The thread wasn't posted in a mean spirit, just an honest one. What is the Seventh Day Adventist response to the specific questions posed in the OP?

God bless,
- H

I pick up a note of irritation HIM....is it because I haven't danced to your tune?....and in regards to what SDA's think on the matter, I don't concern myself with that.

The long and the short of it is that the emphasis on Israel is so misplaced I don't see any point in sparing with you on this issue seeing it appears to be your favourite. You might ask, why is that?....there are two reasons; from observing your responses, what you call a friendly discussion generates into something less than that and the second reason which is connected to the first is that I am not persuaded you have ears to hear.

 

[Truth7t7]

Good points - some more to consider:

Jeremiah 31 states that the new covenant will still be with the HOUSE of Israel and the HOUSE of Judah.

To prove this means the nation of Israel, Jesus originally came only for the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel, and told the apostles not to go the way of the gentiles, but go only to the HOUSE of Israel.

This new covenant went into effect with the death of Jesus, as Hebrews 9 makes clear:

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

And Hebrews 8 states Jesus IS, the mediator of the new covenant, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show what new covenant He IS mediator of:

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

So unlike what some believe, the new covenant is in effect now, and it’s with the HOUSE of Israel, not with so-called spiritual Israel - which is proof God isn’t done with the nation of Israel, just as Paul so clearly stated.

Shalom.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the promises and covenant made to Abraham, the Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed, it's that simple

Jesus Christ is the promised seed, and his children are the Church

Galatians 3:16-29KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Two Israel's Are Seen Below)

(1) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed

(2) National Ethnic Israel. "Flesh"

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

They which are the children of the flesh (Ethnic Israel) these are not the children of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all (1)Israel, which are of (2)Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The long and the short of it is that the emphasis on Israel is so misplaced I don't see any point in sparing with you on this issue seeing it appears to be your favourite. You might ask, why is that?....there are two reasons; from observing your responses, what you call a friendly discussion generates into something less than that and the second reason which is connected to the first is that I am not persuaded you have ears to hear.

Well at least this is an honest answer. But understand, I do have ears to hear, only your argument needs to be convincing, and from scripture itself.

But no hard feelings. I hold no ill-will, so I will let it rest.

God bless,
Your friend,
- H