living creatures in history theory

[Randy Kluth]

Rev 6.7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

These angels appear to encourage the advance of the Church in NT history. Perhaps they represent a progressive development of the Church in history, the lion representing the 1st 500 years, the ox representing the 2nd 500 years, the man representing the 3rd 500 years, and the flying eagle representing the 4th 500 years?

It's purely a theory in my mind, but if I was to quickly characterize these periods of development in the Church I might see it as the Roman Imperial stage, the Expansion into Europe stage, the Catholic stage, and the Evangelical stage. What do you think?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Taken from another site for further thought....

Daniel portrays 4 empires that appear in succession--not all at the same time. They may coexist as kingdoms, but not as empires. An empire contains a number of kingdoms enabling it to dominate an entire region. One cannot have more than a single empire in the same general vicinity.

History records the 1st Kingdom in Daniel's time was Babylon, followed by a joint power, Medo-Persia. Then came Greece with its 4 successors in Hellenistic rule. And finally, Rome conquered the entire region with greater might than the 3 previous powers.

What is significant about this is the fact that the last empire, Rome, is the one that crucified Christ and killed many of his apostles and followers. It is also the nation which received the Kingdom of God after Israel lost it. Rome became the next great home of God's People, the Holy Roman Empire.

Finally, Rome extends, like legs (Dan 2), in bilateral form, Eastern Roman Empire and Western Roman Empire, to form modern Europe in Eastern and Western sections. The Eastern section is largely populated by Slavic peoples, and the Western section is largely populated by Germanic peoples.

This is all true to form and in accordance with how Daniel portrayed it in Dan 2 and 7. The Christianization of the heir to the Holy Roman Empire, Christian Europe, will also be the place where Antichrist is spawned. Where best to spawn satanic attack on Christianity than in the home of Christianity in the world, ie Europe?

What I find particularly interesting is that some of the faces of these 4 beasts is seen in Ezekiel's cherubim, including the lion and the eagle. I think these cherubim refer to angels that oppose Babylon (Dan 7.4). The bear and the leopard are missing, and an ox and the face of a man are added. I'm not sure why? The leopard reappears in association with the Antichristian Empire in Rev 13.2.

In Rev 4 we see the cherubim with lion, ox, man, and eagle. I have a hard time identifying these angels and their purpose, but it is obviously to counter the impact of these worldly empires that appear in history. I'm really praying to understand the significance of these angels, as they help us to counter Satan's attack upon God's People in this world.

I will add this: I think the "bear" is ancient Persia, which as a pagan empire was represented by a wild animal. However, in the book of Revelation we have an "ox" evidencing a domestic animal, perhaps indicating the Christianization of Europe and the world. The face of a "man" represents Christ, both before his coming and after his earthly appearance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Someone pointed out that these 4 creatures participate in the events surrounding the opening of the 1st 4 Seals. So I responded by saying....

Sure, I'm always open to ideas with a basis in Scripture. I think you're right to point out the relationship these angels had to the opening of the book. I was focusing on how they brought glory to God by furthering the advance of the Gospel mission.

But in showing up in the opening of the 1st 4 seals, they facilitate the basic activities of the book of the Last Days, presenting a series of apparent judgments. And angels are known for passing judgment.

I don't know that my hypothetical "progressive" view of these angels will fit into a progressive idea of the 1st 4 Seals? But I do think it's possible.

The white horse of conquest would fit Christianity embedded in the conquering Roman Empire in the 1st 500 years. The red horse of imperial expansion would certainly fit the Holy Roman Empire in the next 500 years. The black horse of famine would fit the Catholic era and plagues of that time. The pale horse of death and pestilence might also fit the Evangelical Era in which great wars among nations were fought.

The last 3 Seals, martyrdom, apocalypse, and Christ's Coming would follow the Evangelical Era, as the time in which Antichrist's Kingdom arises. That's where the world seems to be heading today?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Someone pointed out that the Living Creatures appeared to reflect different aspects of Christ himself. And I responded by saying...

Yes, I think all of the good angels represented Christ in some way in the book of Revelation. But to me, they are still just angels, doing the work for Christ.

In the garden of Eden they were stationed at the door to the garden to keep fallen Man out. And so they seem to oversee divine judgment, to ensure God's holiness is maintained in all matters, in Eternal Judgment and in Redemption.

And since angels were there in the beginning they will also be there at the end, carrying out final judgments in preparation for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. So these angels carry out tasks, and don't just resemble Christ for their artistic value. Rather, they are bringing conquest, unrest, famine, and death. These are characteristics of the present NT age, even as the Gospel ministry is busy carrying out God's plan of redemption in the world.

After the time of Christ, Kingdom authority, initially given to Israel, was given to the Roman Empire, which was Christianized under Constantine and Theodosius. But in the process, the Empire expanded and conquered, allowing the Church a home to be born into and grow out of. This was a period of Roman conquest, as well as barbarian conquest. It opened up a place for future Christian expansion.

In the period following the early Roman period came a time of Christian expansion into Europe, accompanied by a bloody period in which barbarian invasions continued and the Moslems arose. This is also where the Holy Roman Empire arose and put a halt to Moslem advances into Europe.

In the period following the rise of the Holy Roman Empire in the West, Catholicism reached its peak, placing the nation under a degree of control by the Pope. A lot of corruption evolved, with Crusades, plagues, and infighting among Christian nations. In the East the Byzantine Empire continued its rule. Christian rule was established in Europe, East and West.

Finally, there has been the Evangelical stage which has been a revolutionary period, with massive deaths due to wars, etc. These 4 historical Christian stages of Gospel growth can be made to fit the 4 Living Creatures. But I suppose I could fit symbols any way I want with enough imagination?

 

[Reddsta]

Rev 6.7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

These angels appear to encourage the advance of the Church in NT history. Perhaps they represent a progressive development of the Church in history, the lion representing the 1st 500 years, the ox representing the 2nd 500 years, the man representing the 3rd 500 years, and the flying eagle representing the 4th 500 years?

It's purely a theory in my mind, but if I was to quickly characterize these periods of development in the Church I might see it as the Roman Imperial stage, the Expansion into Europe stage, the Catholic stage, and the Evangelical stage. What do you think?

Greetings Randy,

I am not really surprised that no one has responded to your offer to discuss the four living creatures...and I have watched and waited to see if anyone would. I have brought this up on forums over the last few years and either received nothing like you or that it does not matter who the creatures are.

I have in fact done an in-depth look at these creatures...there is light or revelation for this understanding today...but it will not support todays modern false messiah belief structure...the revelation of these four living creatures throughout the history of creation puts on display the eternal spiritual reality of the kingdom of God on earth and in heaven today.

I believe that it is a revelation by the Holy Spirit...and must be received by faith in the Holy Spirit...lets see how this proceeds shall we?

Redd...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Greetings Randy,

I am not really surprised that no one has responded to your offer to discuss the four living creatures...and I have watched and waited to see if anyone would. I have brought this up on forums over the last few years and either received nothing like you or that it does not matter who the creatures are.

I have in fact done an in-depth look at these creatures...there is light or revelation for this understanding today...but it will not support todays modern false messiah belief structure...the revelation of these four living creatures throughout the history of creation puts on display the eternal spiritual reality of the kingdom of God on earth and in heaven today.

I believe that it is a revelation by the Holy Spirit...and must be received by faith in the Holy Spirit...lets see how this proceeds shall we?

Redd...

By all means, brother--you have my interest!????? I'm all ears....

I suspect that people don't respond if they just don't know the answer. It is interesting and there is not much help in the Scriptures or even in the commentaries. There is largely speculation, which is all that I'm doing, as well. You're welcome to make your own speculations? I wouldn't fault people for not speaking when the Scriptures are silent.

It is a pretty large leap for me to suggest that each creature aligns with successive 500 year periods. But I have more reason than it appears on the surface.

1st, these creatures appear to be angels, which can assume unusual creaturely forms, whether man or animal. And we know angels help to determine national alignments in history, as well as to pass judgments when God is ready to do so.

But we know these 4 creatures have successive faces, and align with the 1st 4 seals' opening successively. Hence, they appear to make their angelic impact successively in history. Since God gave Israel the box of His presence, the Tabernacle, in geometric shapes, primarily rectangles and squares, I should think there is some geographic order expressed as periods of time, such as 500 year periods.

Many years ago I read a book about the construction of the Tabernacle, entitled The Path of the Just by Maureen Gaglardi, a Canadian pastor and teacher. She 1st pointed out to me (in her book)--probably the only one who did, that the courtyard of the temple, the holy place, and the holy of holies, each consisted of one or two squared rectangles.

And she believed that the holy of holies, being square, represented a thousand year Millennium, with the holy place, being two squares, represented approximately 2000 years. Thus, from Christ to the end of the Millennium was represented in the Tabernacle by 3000 years of history, 2000 years in the holy place, the Church, and 1000 years in the holy of holies, the Millennium.

I looked back upon history and noticed that there was roughly periods of 500 years when God accomplished certain things, determining major shifts in history. 2000 BC was Abraham, and 1500 BC was roughly the giving of the Law. 1000 BC was David/Solomon's reign, and 500 BC was roughly the restoration of the temple. Of course, Jesus came after 0 AD. And that may be where the 1st living creature began his operations.

I just extended this formula to see 500 AD as representing the Fall of Rome and extension of Christian Rome into Europe. 1000 AD was the height of Roman papal power, along with the rise of strong Christian kings over Christian states. 1500 AD was the beginning of world evangelization. And 2000 AD has seen the rise of Antichristianity in formerly-Christian Europe.

My guess is that these 4 living creatures are exerting divine judgment at these critical junctions, to determine history in the direction of fulfilled prophetic design. But it's pure speculation. I just find it interesting to speculate in this way. Hopefully some truth comes out of it.

 

[Reddsta]

By all means, brother--you have my interest!????? I'm all ears....

Thank you Randy…I hope you are ok with me throwing some things out here before we actually dig into the “Four Living Creatures” to establish some eternal, spiritual basis for the understanding of the prophetic…setting the stage for this “deep dive”…ok?

I am sure that you have a premium value for the years you have spent seeking our Lord…and in simple reflection of your own life can see how you have grown in His image and likeness during that time. It was never about human knowledge and understanding…it is about the complete transformation of the “mindset”…a mindset that is being aligned with the mind of the Lord Yahshua via Holy Spirit.

To get to the revelation and understanding of who the “Four Living Creatures” are…will require a journey…it is an exciting journey at that. Allow me to set up what I have learned with the following prerequisites…then we can interrogate the Scriptures.

I have read many of your posts and will assume that you have received the Holy Spirit since you believed…correct? No offense intended…only clarification…Holy Spirit born revelation is an order of understanding above or outside of human reasoning…and it requires the Holy Spirit to be alive in ones spirit to receive revelation of the eternal realm of our Lord Yahshua.

The time that we are now in…to those who follow Christ…those who are the children of God, which inhabit the kingdom of God on earth, have a sense that, maybe there's a new sound from heaven these days. Our Father is speaking to us with an understanding that could not be recognized before its time.

He's using the prophetic scriptures to reveal His plan to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. It's important that before we take this deep dive into the prophetic scriptures to make note of a couple of things.

First, the prophetic scriptures are an illumination, to our path, a light to our path. This being the case, we are to spend the time required to understand how God speaks from the prophetic into the day for which a prophetic word was destined. Seems like, for a time we lost that, but I think we now know that the day is changed. We know that the plan of God goes exactly as He has set it forth, and it is not changed…we understand that.

It's time for us to grow up in our understanding and realize that there are things that are happening today that we're going to need to look at and understand. This is important in order to carry out the Lords plan for us, which is to build the kingdom of God and become the glory of God on the earth.

For those who understand this, they see it was the very purpose for God creating the heavens and the earth. That He would in the end of this age…raise up a body on the earth…in the fullness of His glory, and His grace…and all that dwells in the earth and above the earth, are going to encounter this.

The second thing is…Paul the Apostle refers to maturity in 1 Cor. 2…Eph. 3…and Heb. 5. In 1st Corinthians 2…he speaks of a “wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

But they did, which proves his point convincingly. Our Father has hidden in Himself wisdom from before creation even existed and this wisdom spoken in a mystery is only a mystery to those who are not supposed to know it. However we must be diligent and ask the Lord for understanding of this wisdom for our day.

Then in Hebrews 5…he says “For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”

Here Paul was seemingly desirous to speak about the order of Melchizedek, which he calls solid food…yet he chastises them for being too immature to digest the solid food. He then mentions that those who are mature are so…because they have been practicing spiritual discernment as a lifestyle and do digest solid spiritual food.

Finally in Ephesians 3…Paul says…”To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Here you have the apostolic revealing the mysteries in its appointed time…to the children of God and you see it is for the purpose of…the body of Christ revealing these hidden mysteries to rulers of darkness…sounds like war.

We have the spirit…the mature are accessing the mind of our Father to interpret His wisdom shrouded in mystery, because Yahshua makes it known to us in its appointed time…we absolutely require it. He gives His wisdom to His children liberally so…we need to make use of that grace.

All that to say, that the journey we are about to embark upon…in this…the end of this age…is following along the lines of Paul’s maturity value…and presumes a level of maturity that has been cultivated faithfully over the years. It's with this understanding, that we should go forth into the prophetic wisdom and see what God is telling us today.

Redd...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thank you Randy…I hope you are ok with me throwing some things out here before we actually dig into the “Four Living Creatures” to establish some eternal, spiritual basis for the understanding of the prophetic…setting the stage for this “deep dive”…ok?

Of course. We are to live by divine revelation. I believe all men have some truth revealed to them from God because all were created to do good. They could not do good unless they understood what it is.

The "wisdom" you speak of is when we are regenerated in the knowledge of God, choosing to live by Christ. Then we have divine revelation with us constantly, and are always cognizant of what God wants from us morally. At times, we may be more personally directed, but in a sense, it is all "personal."

My life took a radical turn when I learned that I could live by divine revelation beyond simply "living by the 10 Commandments." I've prayed to God in sincerity all of my life, but in my adolescence I was transformed by the revelation that "God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him." He wants us to obey Him *all the time.* When I made that choice I was transformed spiritually, and God took His seat upon the throne of my life. I was "regenerated." I now "walk in the Spirit."

On the other hand, we still live in these fleshly bodies and are still haunted by minds that tend to wander. There is a natural resistance to divine revelation that our love for God wants to overcome.

And so, there is always the danger that we confuse "divine revelation" with rationalization and self-interest. It requires a long period of growth to become habituated in choosing the good. We should never "grow weary in well-doing," testing everything to be sure it is truly God!

 

[Reddsta]

I've prayed to God in sincerity all of my life, but in my adolescence I was transformed by the revelation that "God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him." He wants us to obey Him *all the time.* When I made that choice I was transformed spiritually, and God took His seat upon the throne of my life. I was "regenerated." I now "walk in the Spirit."

Greetings Randy,

Thank you for sharing a bit of your story with me my brother. There are many who simply do not receive the Holy Spirit and for them…spiritual revelation cannot happen. In that state there can be no spiritual understanding of the kingdom of God…yet they will debate you if you let them.

It’s best that we realize that there are moments in human history when the Living God…the Creator...interrupts the pattern of humanity…He interrupts the pattern to bring new things, according to His eternal plan.

Today we are living in moments of history that are on a timeline continuum from the beginning of the age to the end of the age...from the beginning of the time of man to the conclusion of the time of man on earth. Humanity largely has lost sight of that, and most of them really never gave it any thought. For most people, the urgency of living every day dominates their thoughts, rendering them unable, to think outside of that.

When you speak of prophetic Scriptures, and when you speak of the purposes of God in creation being fulfilled as they can only be fulfilled in human time…here on the earth…you are apt to be thought of as an opportunist. As someone who is taking advantage of the fact that people are scared and worried that they do not know where things are going…and there is always that risk.

However, if we do not speak about what God is saying, humanity will be blown around by the winds of change…into the uncertainties of our time without any knowledge…without any light…without any understanding with which to inform their judgments.

Prophetic Scriptures have been written in the manner that they have, because they reference certain historical times. During those times, God chose certain persons through who are to speak words that are prophetic…or Spirit and future looking regarding the exact details of His will and plans for humanity and creation.

The most important thing we can do today is to seek our Father as to His will and desire for the times in which we live. We will be looking at types and shadows, numbers, dreams, and visions...all the ways that God speaks prophetically to His people.

You cannot know what prophetic things mean until the time has come for the revealing of those things from heaven. So, if we have had traditional prophetic maps…charts and things pointing in every direction…it is time to lay those things aside because they were conceived in a time prior to the appointed time for the revealing of such things…they heavily reference historic events within those time periods.

God laid up these prophetic things to be opened at the appropriate time. It was impossible for people on their own, in prior times to envision the days in which we live in.

But it was never impossible for God to envision the times in which we would live…and He has shared His plans with us ahead of time so we can be prepared all along.

In fact, the book of Revelation was a revelation given to John while he was caught up into heaven…so it was above time and space…the horizons were distant. But as time moved on…inevitably heaven and earth would meet…and our horizon…what used to be the future…would now be the present.

In these days a shift has come and with it, different times have come. That is why we need to revisit prophetic Scripture, not through the lenses of prior speculation and conjecture, but instead through the proven revelation and insights that have been given of recent times. This is because they were leading up to…and providing keys of understanding for…that which God is now unveiling. So, in light of that…it is essential that we wade into prophetic Scripture.

Redd...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Greetings Randy,

Thank you for sharing a bit of your story with me my brother. There are many who simply do not receive the Holy Spirit and for them…spiritual revelation cannot happen. In that state there can be no spiritual understanding of the kingdom of God…yet they will debate you if you let them.

True, and sadly, these "nominal Christians" lack awareness of their carnal attitudes in their debates. If it's difficult, at times, for us truly regenerated Christians to overcome our pride, how on earth can someone who doesn't even know the Spirit hope to analyze themselves, and separate themselves from carnal attitudes? We can only hope to reach out to them by revelation 1st, before stepping into deeper theological issues that require understanding of the Spirit.

Prophetic Scriptures have been written in the manner that they have, because they reference certain historical times. During those times, God chose certain persons through who are to speak words that are prophetic…or Spirit and future looking regarding the exact details of His will and plans for humanity and creation.

Certainly, each time in history had a purpose from God's point of view. For example, if God had determined to make Israel the prototypical nation for all future nations of faith, then he had to bring Israel through their covenant relationship to ultimate failure as a nation, and then present Christ as an atonement. Christ could not come to bring full grace to the nation until the nation had fully failed.

And now we know that all Christian nations have suffered the same fate as Israel. They have entered into their own covenant with God, ie Christianity, only to fail over time. When the nations have fully failed under their Christian covenant, it will be time for Christ to return.

You cannot know what prophetic things mean until the time has come for the revealing of those things from heaven. So, if we have had traditional prophetic maps…charts and things pointing in every direction…it is time to lay those things aside because they were conceived in a time prior to the appointed time for the revealing of such things…they heavily reference historic events within those time periods.

Yes, we have to be careful with "prophetic charts" because they are so subjective. We are not going to get an advance blueprint so as to predict the future. However, I am a teacher-type of person, and teachers like charts. It helps their students with visual aids to simplify matters for their understanding. Communication is key--not prediction.

In these days a shift has come and with it, different times have come. That is why we need to revisit prophetic Scripture, not through the lenses of prior speculation and conjecture, but instead through the proven revelation and insights that have been given of recent times. This is because they were leading up to…and providing keys of understanding for…that which God is now unveiling. So, in light of that…it is essential that we wade into prophetic Scripture.

Redd...

Thanks brother. We share recognition of the importance of *divine* guidance and revelation, as opposed to idle speculations and presumptuous declarations.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Rev 6.7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

These angels appear to encourage the advance of the Church in NT history. Perhaps they represent a progressive development of the Church in history, the lion representing the 1st 500 years, the ox representing the 2nd 500 years, the man representing the 3rd 500 years, and the flying eagle representing the 4th 500 years?

It's purely a theory in my mind, but if I was to quickly characterize these periods of development in the Church I might see it as the Roman Imperial stage, the Expansion into Europe stage, the Catholic stage, and the Evangelical stage. What do you think?

Nah, they are just four living creatures around teh throne and John simply used what their features appeared to look like to desc ribe them.

We readf too much symbolism into teh book of revelation. This is witnessed to by the millions of personal interpretations of what things mean.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nah, they are just four living creatures around teh throne and John simply used what their features appeared to look like to desc ribe them.

We readf too much symbolism into teh book of revelation. This is witnessed to by the millions of personal interpretations of what things mean.

Or, you're just tired of wracking you brain like the rest of us? I do get it, though. Unless it's interpreted for us we're left with a lot of head-scratching.

What I can't ignore, however, is the fact we are given all of this detail. This may be something early Christians could pick up much easier than we can, due to their proximity to early Jewish understandings.

It is clear to me that the living creatures are similar to the ones described in Ezekiel, and there they are explained to be cherubim, or angels. I think we can know this much.

But we can, I think, go farther than this. In Ezekiel the appearances and faces of the cherubim seemed directly related to the prophecies of judgment contained in Ezekiel's book. Human, lion, ox and eagle seem to present God's original call for Man to "subdue the earth." And these are means God uses to bring judgment upon the wicked on earth.

The "ox," however, appears to be inconsistent with the theme of judgment. Maybe I just don't understand what it means to "subdue the earth?" Maybe an ox is used to "plow up the earth?"

I'd like to understand this better, but at times I'd like to agree with you that "it's only symbolism with little sense of what it means."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Or, you're just tired of wracking you brain like the rest of us? I do get it, though. Unless it's interpreted for us we're left with a lot of head-scratching.

What I can't ignore, however, is the fact we are given all of this detail. This may be something early Christians could pick up much easier than we can, due to their proximity to early Jewish understandings.

It is clear to me that the living creatures are similar to the ones described in Ezekiel, and there they are explained to be cherubim, or angels. I think we can know this much.

But we can, I think, go farther than this. In Ezekiel the appearances and faces of the cherubim seemed directly related to the prophecies of judgment contained in Ezekiel's book. Human, lion, ox and eagle seem to present God's original call for Man to "subdue the earth." And these are means God uses to bring judgment upon the wicked on earth.

The "ox," however, appears to be inconsistent with the theme of judgment. Maybe I just don't understand what it means to "subdue the earth?" Maybe an ox is used to "plow up the earth?"

I'd like to understand this better, but at times I'd like to agree with you that "it's only symbolism with little sense of what it means."

I do not even think it is symbolism. I think these are simply four creatures around the throne who worship god forever. I believe them to be cherubim (above an angel and seraphim)

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

I simply cannot see any reason to go into interpretations of this passage.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do not even think it is symbolism. I think these are simply four creatures around the throne who worship god forever. I believe them to be cherubim (above an angel and seraphim)

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

I simply cannot see any reason to go into interpretations of this passage.

I understand and sympathize. However, I find *lots of reason* to ask if this is "symbolism!" How can I not when these creatures are unlike anything we have ever seen on earth? "Eyes all about?" "6 wings?" "4 distinct appearances?" How can it *not* be symbolism?

Also, we are told that angels are "spirit creatures." Their appearance sounds more like physical, earthly creatures than whatever a "spiritual creature" is? Why not view them as symbolic?

But again, your point is well-taken. If we can't derive value out of the detail, then the detail should be of no consequence. It is purely descriptive of what "is."

 

[Reddsta]

Yes, we have to be careful with "prophetic charts" because they are so subjective. We are not going to get an advance blueprint so as to predict the future. However, I am a teacher-type of person, and teachers like charts. It helps their students with visual aids to simplify matters for their understanding. Communication is key--not prediction.

This is a great point Randy...I too use a white board constantly for "communication"...visuals are of great assistance to all. I have had some beautifully prepared displays and charts over the years that I have found are really not useful with the revelation of the Lord in our day...today.

The updated maps and charts are helpful for today...if you come up with something awesome...please share it with me...my artistic ability never progressed beyond the "stick-man."

Communication is key...as you stated.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Thanks brother. We share recognition of the importance of *divine* guidance and revelation, as opposed to idle speculations and presumptuous declarations.

Greetings Randy…and your welcome

Now, before I get to the “Four Living Creatures” where we can start with their “location”…I would just like to put the final touch on the “pre-dive” set up…thank you for your patience and may the revelation of He who was, is and is to come flow richly into your spirit.

Prophetic Scripture…at the time of their revelation is no longer prophetic…it is apostolic.

Prophetic is the thing that is yet out in the distance. I am saying these things that “are now,” used to be the distant future when they were written. But now that they are here, they are no longer prophetic, in the sense of the distant future.

So, they are going to be decoded and they are going to be unpacked by the apostolic. These are the helmsmen who steer the ship through these times, the ship is steered apostolically because that is how the Father has set the guidance of the heritage of God…they are the apostolic…making known the plans of the Father to the children today.

The time has come for the unveiling of that which used to be distant. If you walk far enough toward the distant horizon, eventually you will be standing right in the midst of what you saw afar off. That is what I am saying. The interpretation of these things for the benefit of the saints, to be translated into guiding principle of how the body of Christ is to live, has been entrusted into the apostolic guidance of the Body of Christ in this time.

Now, there are other things that will yet be spoken prophetically, and there are aspects of this that are yet to be decoded prophetically. However…many…of the things that are before us today are not prophetic any longer…they have come…“This is that.”

So with the intent of providing revelation and insight…and by that…guidance…we are wading into prophetic Scripture at the direction of the Lord…for our time.

It is possible…that some of the things that we will speak of here…are things that I have never spoken before, nor have you ever heard before…why?

It is simply because the time has come, and God is going to speak these things through the mouths (plural) of some group of people alive in the earth at the time that such things had come.

This is the children's bread, and my hope is that it will strengthen you in these times that are irrevocably changed.

May the word of God bring peace to you in the revelation of it.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Part 1 beginning the dive…The Four Living Creatures.

Moving from a look at the need and the importance of the prophetic scriptures, we are going to dive into Revelations chapters 4-6 as a start. A good place to start is with the voice in the midst of the four living creatures. Here we can begin to look at their specific location…which I think you will see as amazing and important. Let’s look at what has been hidden in God for many ages past…which is now being revealed…this is the food for the mature who can discern between “good and evil”...we will be kicking up new revelation about Christ!

Let’s set the stage here…

“And I saw that the one seated on the throne was holding in his right hand an unopened scroll with writing on the inside and on the outside, and it was sealed with seven seals.” (Rev 5:1 TPT)

“And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.” (Rev 5:6-7 NKJV)

“And I heard what seemed to be a voice from among the living creatures saying, “A small measure of wheat for a day’s pay, and three measures of barley for a day’s pay, but don’t harm the olive trees producing oil and the vines producing wine.” (Rev 6:6 TPT)

So, speaking from inside or among the four living creatures…is the Lamb. Now this should stir your interest greatly because, in the picture of heaven, the throne is central. He who sits upon the throne and the Lamb is surrounded by the four living creatures.

If you were to imagine a court in which there are concentric circles. In the midst of the circle are the throne, and the Lamb, the One who holds the scroll with seven seals. That would be the epicenter, not only of heaven, but of creation itself, because it suggests that the authority to govern creation is vested in the One who sits upon the throne.

We know Yahshua claimed, “I have all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18). So the living God…who is Spirit…who dwells outside of time, who holds all of creation together in the breadth of His hand…the Word which has upheld the world since it was created…and everything in creation…has conferred authority to govern creation to the One who sits upon the throne and the Lamb.

The four living creatures are the next in the circle around the throne. If you think of this as a court, and all authority in the Kingdom is vested in the One who is sitting upon the throne…the next circle of authority is the executive functioning.

They do the bidding of the One who sits on the throne, who has all authority. Outside of the four living creatures are the twenty-four elders, twelve being the number of government, times two, represents the government of the Kingdom of God in heaven and on earth.

We need to focus on the four living creatures because they are the executive function of the vested authority of the One who sits upon the throne. The power that is vested in the throne governs all that is in heaven and on earth. But that power does not originate in heaven…it originates in God…who is eternal. Before there was heaven and earth…before the created realm came in to being…God would say, “In the beginning, God.”

It is vital for you to see that the throne is the “symbol of the authority” that holds creation together. It did not just create things; it continues to hold it together for the purposes for which God created the heavens and the earth.

Those purposes are meant to be carried out…as I have been saying…executed. The One who has absolute authority or the potential that reveals the absolute or complete authority is the essence of the four living creatures. They are the primary executors of the authority of the throne, and this is by design.

They are so connected to the One who sits upon the throne, they operate in the authority of the One who sits upon the throne…in the fashion of an ambassador…a messenger…one who has been tested and proven…who can be deployed to represent the living God.

It would be very good to remember these things that we have seen and go over them, because we will see in the unfolding of prophetic, that they absolutely represent the authority of the throne.

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us through His Son, whom He appointed heir over all things” (Hebrews 1:1-2).

That Son is a spiritual man known as Christ...a corporate man. Four is the number of God’s creation, here as the corporate man. That is why we have four "living" creatures surrounding the One who sits upon the throne, which is the executive authority of God in all of creation, who may claim to have all power in all of creation.

We can pick up here next time.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Greetings Ronald...

I do not even think it is symbolism. I think these are simply four creatures around the throne who worship god forever. I believe them to be cherubim (above an angel and seraphim)

The word or name "Cherubim" may have different scriptural meanings...however in reference to the "Four Living Creatures" from Ezekiel...in...10:9 Ezekiel seems to refer to all "4" of the living creatures as "the cherubim."

Then in 10:14 Ezekiel lists the 4 living creatures individually...he refers to the "ox" the "face of the cherub" it appears that he is clearly stating that the "ox" is to him...the cherub.

"And each one had four faces. The first face was the face of a cherub, the second face was the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle. Then the cherubim rose up. They are the living beings that I saw by the river Chebar." (Eze 10:14-15 NASB)​

I simply cannot see any reason to go into interpretations of this passage.

As you wish Ronald...as you wish.

However we are endeavoring to do just that...to interpret the numbers, symbols, colors, types and shadows etc...that are interwoven throughout all of scripture from Genesis the book of the "beginnings" of the creation of the heavens and the earth and mans existence in it...to Revelation the book of the "summations" of the created heavens and earth and mans existence in it.

Our God and Father is very intentional from before the beginning of the created heavens and earth about all that constitutes "scripture" it is a joy for Him to see us plundering the heavens in an effort to gain a deeper relationship with Him...it is this that makes us more like Him...which is why He put creation in place to begin with.

May His Spirit continually grow within you Ronald.

Redd...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Greetings Randy…and your welcome

Now, before I get to the “Four Living Creatures” where we can start with their “location”…I would just like to put the final touch on the “pre-dive” set up…thank you for your patience and may the revelation of He who was, is and is to come flow richly into your spirit.

Prophetic Scripture…at the time of their revelation is no longer prophetic…it is apostolic.

Prophetic is the thing that is yet out in the distance. I am saying these things that “are now,” used to be the distant future when they were written. But now that they are here, they are no longer prophetic, in the sense of the distant future.

So, they are going to be decoded and they are going to be unpacked by the apostolic. These are the helmsmen who steer the ship through these times, the ship is steered apostolically because that is how the Father has set the guidance of the heritage of God…they are the apostolic…making known the plans of the Father to the children today.

The time has come for the unveiling of that which used to be distant. If you walk far enough toward the distant horizon, eventually you will be standing right in the midst of what you saw afar off. That is what I am saying. The interpretation of these things for the benefit of the saints, to be translated into guiding principle of how the body of Christ is to live, has been entrusted into the apostolic guidance of the Body of Christ in this time.

Now, there are other things that will yet be spoken prophetically, and there are aspects of this that are yet to be decoded prophetically. However…many…of the things that are before us today are not prophetic any longer…they have come…“This is that.”

So with the intent of providing revelation and insight…and by that…guidance…we are wading into prophetic Scripture at the direction of the Lord…for our time.

It is possible…that some of the things that we will speak of here…are things that I have never spoken before, nor have you ever heard before…why?

It is simply because the time has come, and God is going to speak these things through the mouths (plural) of some group of people alive in the earth at the time that such things had come.

This is the children's bread, and my hope is that it will strengthen you in these times that are irrevocably changed.

May the word of God bring peace to you in the revelation of it.

Redd...

Right, Apostles 1st and then Prophets. Got it.

The value of Scripture is always on Now, because it is in the Now that we obey and please God. It is in the Now that we relate with God and maintain our Spirituality. So I think we're on the same page.

Elitism, however, is not my thing. That there are distinctive gifts of apostles and prophets I will agree, and I do submit to the various ministries, although they will also have to submit to my teaching gift as well.

If what is said does not register in my spirit and in my knowledge of the Truth, I will reject it. And I will reject elitism as misrepresentative of God. Everything God does requires humble servants to properly minister who He is and what He says.

Isa 40.4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the Lord will be revealed,
and all people will see it together.
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you were to imagine a court in which there are concentric circles. In the midst of the circle are the throne, and the Lamb, the One who holds the scroll with seven seals. That would be the epicenter, not only of heaven, but of creation itself, because it suggests that the authority to govern creation is vested in the One who sits upon the throne....

The four living creatures are the next in the circle around the throne. If you think of this as a court, and all authority in the Kingdom is vested in the One who is sitting upon the throne…the next circle of authority is the executive functioning...

It is vital for you to see that the throne is the “symbol of the authority” that holds creation together. It did not just create things; it continues to hold it together for the purposes for which God created the heavens and the earth.

Yes, we know this. It's pretty obvious that a "throne" represents authority, and the authority of God who sits there! It stands to reason that the cherubim before the throne are glorifying God as authoritative. They would obviously carry out His executive orders.

That Son is a spiritual man known as Christ...a corporate man. Four is the number of God’s creation, here as the corporate man. That is why we have four "living" creatures surrounding the One who sits upon the throne, which is the executive authority of God in all of creation, who may claim to have all power in all of creation.

I don't know what you mean by saying "Christ...a corporate man"? And I'm not sure there is any Scripture saying "four is the number of God's creation"?

However, the number 4 is sometimes used as in the 4 directions of heaven, N, S, E, and W. And so, it is all-encompassing. It can also refer to 4 chair or table legs, which is a sturdy base for heavier furniture.

We are simply told that there are 4 Creatures, and so God is categorizing some work on earth as in 4 parts, or in 4 stages, I think. It all has to do with bringing in the Kingdom of God at Christ's Coming. That's why I theorize that the 4 Creatures could represent 4 500-year periods in NT history.

I mean, I could be dead wrong. But as I see it, the 1st 500 years represented the time when the Kingdom of God passed to the Roman Empire. Rome was Christianized during this period. It was represented by the lion, and by the white horse of conquest, the 1st Seal.

The 2nd 500 year period represented the period when Rome passed into an enlarged Holy Roman Empire, represented by the Red Horse of death, the 2nd Seal. This was a period of growth, supplanting previous pagan cultures. It was also a time of Islamic challenge. The Living Creature was the ox, or calf, an animal of development.

The 3rd 500 year period represented the time when Catholicism came to rule in the Holy Roman Empire, when Christian leaders became dominant in Christian states in Europe. This was represented by the Living Creature depicting a Man. But it was characterized by the limitations of a labor class, presented almost as famine conditions. This time in Europe was feudal and rendered laborers virtual slaves, who pursued moving into a Middle Class.

The 4th 500 year period represented the time of world evangelization, the flying eagle. Protestantism and Evangelicalism emerged, together with colonialism. The 4th Seal is depicted by a pale horse, indicating Sickness. This period did produce Sick conditions, in which revolution predominated.

After the year 2000, Antichristianity arose. COVID has helped to elicit this kind of conversion, where people began to expose who they really are. I think Antichrist is on the horizon, once Antichristianity has overtaken European culture.