Matthew 24

[Davidpt]

That was what I have warned them about infidel Josephus for a long time before you came here. They are defending Josephus because of their flawed 70AD theories to build a doctrine. They do not understand that the fallen stones of the temple are PEOPLE of the congregation - the temple of Christ's body. Not physical stones. (Matthew 24:1-2, John 2:18-20)



I believe that Matthew 24 is prophesied about the New Testament Congregation right before the Second Coming when the Elect starts to see the "SIGNS" of Christ's return. For example, when they see the abomination of desolation, and the signs in the sun, moon, and stars which point to the judgment of the New Testament congregation which must take place first before the Second Coming, per 1st Peter 4:17. This is only possible with spiritual discernment. Not carnal.

Nothing to do with 70AD, Titus, or the 1st century.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Since I'm assuming that you don't deny that 70 AD happened, and that you don't deny that Christians fled the city before it was destroyed, produce the Scriptures that explain how they knew to flee the city before it was destroyed since you are apparently denying that Luke 21:21 is one of those Scriptures. It is ludricrous IMO, the fact 70 AD undeniably happened, that nothing in the entire Discourse is involving 70 AD, though.

What's with all these extremist positions involving the Discourse? On one hand you have some Preterists insisting that nothing in the Discourse is involving events beyond 70 AD. Then on another hand you have some Futurists who are insisting that nothing in the Discourse is involving the first century, and certainly not 70 AD.


As if none of the following could possibly fit the first century leading up to 70 AD.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Notice how that verse starts out---But before all these. Then notice this in verse 11--and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. Then compare that with this---and there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken(Luke 21:25-26)

And where does it place these events? Before or after verse 12 has been fulfilled? Before or after verse 20 has been fulfilled?
The fact a lot of Amils fall under the category of idealism, I'm guessing chronology and literal events are probably not relevant for the most part. Granted, there are numerous things in the Discourse that shouldn't be taken in the literal sense.

Everything, though? As if there is no such thing as literal nations warring with literal nations. As if there is no such thing as literal earthquakes happening anywhere on this planet. If none of those things can be involving the literal, maybe we shouldn't take the coming in Luke 21:27 in the literal sense, either. That Preterists are correct here. That it was a coming in judgment in 70 AD, a coming that didn't literally involve anyone bodily returning.

That's what happens when we end up with these extremist positions. We end up with the literal not involving the literal, but involving another sense instead. Prerists do it with the coming recorded in verse 27. They make a literal event to be meaning an event in a different sense altogether. And we have futurists, like you, doing pretty much the same thing with Luke 21:20, not to mention, verses 9-15. Where you have decided literal events are not literal events at all, but are meaning in another sense altogether.

Obviously then, since Pretrerists couldn't remotely be correct about verse 27, that it is not a literal event involving the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, . and that some of the rest of us, including you, couldn't possibly be interpreting Matthew 24:15 incorrectly, that that verse is not meaning in a literal sense involving a literal temple in Jerusalem in the first century, this then tells us that some of the Discourse is meant to be taken in a literal sense, and some of it isn't. Even you can't argue with that unless you want to insist Luke 21:27 is not involving a literal event, meaning the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age. And since that can be involving a literal event, and that 70 AD obviously involved a literal event, why then can't Luke 21:20 simply be meaning what happened in 70 AD?

 

[covenantee]

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Since I'm assuming that you don't deny that 70 AD happened, and that you don't deny that Christians fled the city before it was destroyed, produce the Scriptures that explain how they knew to flee the city before it was destroyed since you are apparently denying that Luke 21:21 is one of those Scriptures. It is ludricrous IMO, the fact 70 AD undeniably happened, that nothing in the entire Discourse is involving 70 AD, though.

What's with all these extremist positions involving the Discourse? On one hand you have some Preterists insisting that nothing in the Discourse is involving events beyond 70 AD. Then on another hand you have some Futurists who are insisting that nothing in the Discourse is involving the first century, and certainly not 70 AD.


As if none of the following could possibly fit the first century leading up to 70 AD.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Notice how that verse starts out---But before all these. Then notice this in verse 11--and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. Then compare that with this---and there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken(Luke 21:25-26)

And where does it place these events? Before or after verse 12 has been fulfilled? Before or after verse 20 has been fulfilled?
The fact a lot of Amils fall under the category of idealism, I'm guessing chronology and literal events are probably not relevant for the most part. Granted, there are numerous things in the Discourse that shouldn't be taken in the literal sense.

Everything, though? As if there is no such thing as literal nations warring with literal nations. As if there is no such thing as literal earthquakes happening anywhere on this planet. If none of those things can be involving the literal, maybe we shouldn't take the coming in Luke 21:27 in the literal sense, either. That Preterists are correct here. That it was a coming in judgment in 70 AD, a coming that didn't literally involve anyone bodily returning.

That's what happens when we end up with these extremist positions. We end up with the literal not involving the literal, but involving another sense instead. Prerists do it with the coming recorded in verse 27. They make a literal event to be meaning an event in a different sense altogether. And we have futurists, like you, doing pretty much the same thing with Luke 21:20, not to mention, verses 9-15. Where you have decided literal events are not literal events at all, but are meaning in another sense altogether.

Obviously then, since Pretrerists couldn't remotely be correct about verse 27, that it is not a literal event involving the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, . and that some of the rest of us, including you, couldn't possibly be interpreting Matthew 24:15 incorrectly, that that verse is not meaning in a literal sense involving a literal temple in Jerusalem in the first century, this then tells us that some of the Discourse is meant to be taken in a literal sense, and some of it isn't. Even you can't argue with that unless you want to insist Luke 21:27 is not involving a literal event, meaning the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age. And since that can be involving a literal event, and that 70 AD obviously involved a literal event, why then can't Luke 21:20 simply be meaning what happened in 70 AD?

You can expect little other than a surfeit of nonsense when attempting to converse with a cult.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Since I'm assuming that you don't deny that 70 AD happened, and that you don't deny that Christians fled the city before it was destroyed, produce the Scriptures that explain how they knew to flee the city before it was destroyed since you are apparently denying that Luke 21:21 is one of those Scriptures. It is ludricrous IMO, the fact 70 AD undeniably happened, that nothing in the entire Discourse is involving 70 AD, though.

First, you need to understand that the Olivet Discourse was not prophesied about the Jews in the 1st Century. Rather its about SPIRITUAL Jews (Christians) in SPIRITUAL Judea (church) prior the Second Coming which I believe is taking place right now.

Second, the problem is that you pay too much respect to Flavius Josephus. I mean respected by who, and for what reason? Respected for Biblical explanation of the meaning of Matthew 24 and the abominations that makes desolate? Respected to detail the fleeing from Judaea to the mountains, or the fall of the Holy Temple? How about its rebuilding or restoration? No, NOT Josephus, not EVER!
The 70 A.D. doesn't qualify as an abomination that made anything desolate, much less the Holy Temple of God--which "that" Temple in Jerusalem at the time was not! That Temple Christ spoke of was left desolate in 33 A.D., along with the Holy City Jerusalem. It was left desolate by the abominations that, to this day, its people still don't recognize. Not abominations as Josephus and assorted Preterists or Futurists think they might refer to, but as defined and spoken of throughout God's word. Pay attention. It is the abominations of "His People." As it is written:

Ezekiel 43:7-8

• "And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
• In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger."

Flavius Josephus doesn't know any more about "this" abomination that makes desolate prophesied against the people of Israel, as the majority of the people of Israel themselves did! Selah! Nor do many professing Christians today understand the "real" abominations that they themselves have wrought that will make their house desolate as well. They all are all too busy looking at the temporal things like physical armies, cities, materials of buildings, literal stones, arrows, crying babies, and mountains, geopolitical wars, golden thrones, and the power of the rulers of this world. In doing so, like Israel before them they completely miss the point, just as you do. The Biblical fact is, the Romans did NOT make the Temple Desolate by any act they did in it, it was the people of Israel by the acts they did in it. Contrary to Josephus, the abominations were not by the Romans, but by the Israelites themselves, The Lord's OWN children of God's congregation, and the desolations were not of physical city having all its stones falling or being thrown down (Lu 19:41-4), but of a spiritual fall of a city, It means that a spiritual kingdom removed from them, and a spiritual Holy Temple whose stones were all thrown down. As we see there is not really much difference between the eschatology of Flavius Josephus, the Premillennialists and the Judaizers. They ALL have their collective heads in earthly Jerusalem seeking physical fulfillment there, rather than an archetypal Jerusalem that represents the city from above. Selah.

As if none of the following could possibly fit the first century leading up to 70 AD.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

God is talking about Christians' responses during the New Testament period BEFORE the Great Tribulation to accusations, lies, and queries about the gospel we bear witness to.

Luke 21:10-15

• Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
• And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
• "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
• And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
• Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
• For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."

Do you know how will God give to His Two Witnesses a mouth, Revelation 11:3? It is to testify God's Word concerning Salvation and judgment. It is by our becoming messengers that give testimony (Revelation11:7) to "His words." For example, we're not the author or source of this testimony, we're merely the witness bringing the "testimony" of what God has said. For God's word is "always" the perfect, accurate, trustworthy, answer that cannot be gainsaid (contradicted, or spoken against) or resisted. What professing servant of God (as the judaizers were) are going to say God's word is a lie? None, because they all are professing to follow it. Remember how Christ would ask them something about the Scripture and they would reply, "we cannot tell?" That's because they knew an honest answer would reveal their deceit or contradict the Scriptures. They couldn't gainsay nor resist it, but they still hated Christ for His teaching, (Luke 21:12-15).

Notice how that verse starts out---But before all these. Then notice this in verse 11--and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. Then compare that with this---and there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken(Luke 21:25-26)

And where does it place these events?

Verses 10 and 11 speak of the beginning of sorrow FOR THE CHURCH. Matthew 24 confirms this:

Mat 24:5-8
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Do you know what war, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes the Lord talked about here?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Mat 24:5-8
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Luk 21:8-11
(8) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
(9) But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
(10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
(11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Do you understand what Christ was talking about here? I do NOT think so! Let me explain:

Do you know what is fearful sight? It depends upon if we are a people that fear God. Scripture interprets Scripture as to what is fearful. And God's Word says His judgment is indeed a fearful thing. And that's what this time of apostasy is all about! It is the wrath of God upon His people, and it is FEARFUL. Yet we give glory to God even in that. This has nothing to do with fighting with arrows or missiles. It has nothing to do with physical food to eat. This has nothing to do with cancer or COVID. This has nothing to do with the physical shaking of the pile of dirt in the Middle East. Let forget Titus, Romas, and physical city and temple for a moment and pay attention to what God says:

Hebrews 10:30-31

• "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge His people.
• It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

I'd say this time is very fearful, for the vengeance of God is the ultimate fear. And ONLY the believers (true ones) have respectful, reverential, fear of God. But the unbelievers of the congregation will NOT notice it.

As far as it "seeming" literal? Of course it does. Most everything in the Bible seems literal. Didn't the Jews think Elijah had to very literally and physically return in order to fulfill prophesy? Yes, but they were wrong. When Christ said they had to eat His flesh, they walked away in droves. Because they presumed He was speaking to them very literally. ...which of course He was not. And they presumed He was talking about a literal Temple, when He prophesied they would destroy it. The list is endless. The point is, assumption is the mother of Biblical errors. As far as it seeming fearful, Scripture interprets Scripture.

Luke 21:11

• "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

The verse itself is a model that demonstrates some of the fearful sights. They are given as Famines, Pestilence and Earthquakes, which throughout Scripture "points" to spiritual events. For example:

Famines​

Amos 8:11

• "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

In other words, a spiritual famine, a shortage or hearing God's word, a scarcity, drought or absence of the true gospel message, which spiritually are the bread of life and the waters of life. It is because the church has fallen into apostasy.

Pestilence​

Revelation 18:2-4

• "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
• For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
• And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

This thing spiritually are equated with Famine, with Pestilence, disease and plagues and with spiritual shaking or trembling. The fearful signs are not literal, but spiritual signs of famine in not hearing the word of God, spiritual disease of a spiritual plagues upon those of Israel who are not sealed (a spirit direct from the pit), and the spiritual earth shaking which shakes the foundations of the church, which is spiritually Babylon and was represented by that city. It's all God's spiritual judgments. Not God very Literally shaking heaven or literally shaking the earth, or stars literally falling from the sky to the earth (as if that's plausible) or figs literally shaken from a tree, but the spiritual signification of these things.

Earthquakes​

Isaiah 13:13-19

• "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
• And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
• Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
• Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
• Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
• Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
• And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."

Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, the "spiritual" condition of God's people (congregation) when He brings judgment upon them. The children of the city will not be spared, more specifically those who have NOT receive the seal yet are under the Lord's wrath, per Revelation 9:

Rev 9:2-6
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Those unfaithful people of the congregation who have not yet sealed by God (Revelation 7:1-4) will be subject to His Wrath. They will think they are Christian by seeking death (in Christ) or have desire to die (in Christ) but cannot find salvation. That is the judgment of God upon His church. That is fearful signs!

But people like you seem to say, "beware taking things spiritually. Sorry...beware of taking things in Scripture "any" other way than the Lord intends them taken. Be it crooked roads, Sheep, valleys, Vines, Goats, Fig Trees, Olive Trees, Temple, City, Dragon, Bread, Jerusalem, fields, Virgins, Serpents, Kings, Mountains, Lions, wolves or anything else. Scripture interprets scripture, not our assumptions on what it "seems" like, like you did with temple in Matthew 24:1-2!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I assume you also think you can walk on water also? One step and you will hit bottom, one post on the book of Revelation thinking you can give light even to the very best of God's children is an platitude statement, and only shows your limited bible understanding.

​

Maybe, with a faith of a mustard seed. The point us anyone who comes to these sites or ANYWHERE and goes into long dissertations on one chapter, is not teaching biblical truths, he's teaching his on truths. The bible speaks for itself, we just not to unscramble God/Jesus meanings. Its very clear Matt. 24:4-13 is intended for the disciples only. Verse 14 shows them WHY they will never see Jesus' 2nd coming, thus when the 70 AD wars and rumors of wars kicks off in like 67-70 AD the Disciples already know it not Jesus come again. Nothing in those verses is about the END TIME save vs. 14 where the Rapture happens. Verses 7-9 is a DEMONSTRATION why vs 6 can not be THE END.

You can not explain something you do not understand brother.

 

[covenantee]

Mat 24:5-8
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Luk 21:8-11
(8) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
(9) But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
(10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
(11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Do you understand what Christ was talking about here? I do NOT think so! Let me explain:

Do you know what is fearful sight? It depends upon if we are a people that fear God. Scripture interprets Scripture as to what is fearful. And God's Word says His judgment is indeed a fearful thing. And that's what this time of apostasy is all about! It is the wrath of God upon His people, and it is FEARFUL. Yet we give glory to God even in that. This has nothing to do with fighting with arrows or missiles. It has nothing to do with physical food to eat. This has nothing to do with cancer or COVID. This has nothing to do with the physical shaking of the pile of dirt in the Middle East. Let forget Titus, Romas, and physical city and temple for a moment and pay attention to what God says:

Hebrews 10:30-31

• "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge His people.
• It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

I'd say this time is very fearful, for the vengeance of God is the ultimate fear. And ONLY the believers (true ones) have respectful, reverential, fear of God. But the unbelievers of the congregation will NOT notice it.

As far as it "seeming" literal? Of course it does. Most everything in the Bible seems literal. Didn't the Jews think Elijah had to very literally and physically return in order to fulfill prophesy? Yes, but they were wrong. When Christ said they had to eat His flesh, they walked away in droves. Because they presumed He was speaking to them very literally. ...which of course He was not. And they presumed He was talking about a literal Temple, when He prophesied they would destroy it. The list is endless. The point is, assumption is the mother of Biblical errors. As far as it seeming fearful, Scripture interprets Scripture.

Luke 21:11

• "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

The verse itself is a model that demonstrates some of the fearful sights. They are given as Famines, Pestilence and Earthquakes, which throughout Scripture "points" to spiritual events. For example:

Famines​

Amos 8:11

• "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

In other words, a spiritual famine, a shortage or hearing God's word, a scarcity, drought or absence of the true gospel message, which spiritually are the bread of life and the waters of life. It is because the church has fallen into apostasy.

Pestilence​

Revelation 18:2-4

• "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
• For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
• And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

This thing spiritually are equated with Famine, with Pestilence, disease and plagues and with spiritual shaking or trembling. The fearful signs are not literal, but spiritual signs of famine in not hearing the word of God, spiritual disease of a spiritual plagues upon those of Israel who are not sealed (a spirit direct from the pit), and the spiritual earth shaking which shakes the foundations of the church, which is spiritually Babylon and was represented by that city. It's all God's spiritual judgments. Not God very Literally shaking heaven or literally shaking the earth, or stars literally falling from the sky to the earth (as if that's plausible) or figs literally shaken from a tree, but the spiritual signification of these things.

Earthquakes​

Isaiah 13:13-19

• "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
• And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
• Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
• Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
• Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
• Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
• And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."

Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, the "spiritual" condition of God's people (congregation) when He brings judgment upon them. The children of the city will not be spared, more specifically those who have NOT receive the seal yet are under the Lord's wrath, per Revelation 9:

Rev 9:2-6
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Those unfaithful people of the congregation who have not yet sealed by God (Revelation 7:1-4) will be subject to His Wrath. They will think they are Christian by seeking death (in Christ) or have desire to die (in Christ) but cannot find salvation. That is the judgment of God upon His church. That is fearful signs!

But people like you seem to say, "beware taking things spiritually. Sorry...beware of taking things in Scripture "any" other way than the Lord intends them taken. Be it crooked roads, Sheep, valleys, Vines, Goats, Fig Trees, Olive Trees, Temple, City, Dragon, Bread, Jerusalem, fields, Virgins, Serpents, Kings, Mountains, Lions, wolves or anything else. Scripture interprets scripture, not our assumptions on what it "seems" like, like you did with temple in Matthew 24:1-2!

Do not forget, readers, that this is a cult of antichrist which refuses to confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Red Baker]

Did Christ literally come in the literal flesh at His first coming?

1st John 5:5,6~"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

 

[Red Baker]

I’m not sure why they wouldn’t want to admit Jesus came in the flesh, it’s interesting that you haven’t gotten a reply yet.

I do believe the record that God gave of his Son, who was born in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin and condemned sin in the flesh by his perfect obedience to the law of God in thoughts, words, and deeds from conception until death.

Why would anyone deny is truth? If they do, they are not of God, but have a antichrist spirit.

I probably believe it more than you, since I hold to Jesus' complex nature being fully God and fully man, conceived in time (two thousand years ago) not in eternity past. The great mystery of the Godhead is that Jesus is not only the Son of God who took on flesh, but that he is also the everlasting Father of all things per Isaiah 9:6. Enough on that subject, since it is not part of this thread.

 

[Red Baker]

Because it would compel them to admit that Scripture contains literal as well as spiritual truths.

Both of which are present in Matthew 24 et al.

We let the scriptures interpret themselves and they will, yet I do not see your reasoning behind what you are saying has any impact on how we should interpret Matthew 24~as I said above, the CONTEXT does that for us, and by comparing other scriptures with scriptures is the means of understanding what they are teaching. It's not that complicated.

 

[Red Baker]

Maybe, with a faith of a mustard seed.

Agreed

The point us anyone who comes to these sites or ANYWHERE and goes into long dissertations on one chapter, is not teaching biblical truths, he's teaching his on truths.

Ronald, that's a true statement, yet, it is true also, that we all are here teaching what we believe God has revealed to us as his truth, so, our duty who profess to be his children, is to obey 1st John 4:1, and test them with the word of God to see if they are of God or not, on the particular subject under consideration.

The bible speaks for itself,

Amen, I believe that with all of my heart.

, we just not to unscramble God/Jesus meanings

Not sure what you mean exactly with those words~but, I think you are saying we should not corrupt Jesus' intended meaning, which I agree, yet, let's be honest, we all have been guilty of doing so in our ignorance~living in a body of sin and death, even Peter did~and the apostles were very ignorant of many truths in the beginning~even concerning the death of our Lord and his resurrection, it was afterwards that they came to believe fully and correctly. Understanding truth is a very slow progress for all of us, because of the slowness of our hearts, spiritual truths does not come easy. Errors and lies come very naturally to all of us.

Its very clear Matt. 24:4-13 is intended for the disciples only

Ronald, you are wrong dear brother, and I trust before God to prove that Matthew 24 and 25 is more so for us than the apostles~even Paul in 2nd Thess 2, will prove this...later. Ronald, do not allow yourself to divorce chapter 25 from 24, it is one complete discourse covering one subject, the last days just before Jesus' second coming, and us being ready for that day as we see it approaching.

Verse 14 shows them WHY they will never see Jesus' 2nd coming, thus when the 70 AD wars and rumors of wars kicks off in like 67-70 AD the Disciples already know it not Jesus come again. Nothing in those verses is about the END TIME save vs. 14 where the Rapture happens. Verses 7-9 is a DEMONSTRATION why vs 6 can not be THE END.

While I agree that verse 14 is a sign that the destruction of Jerusalem was not the second coming of Christ, that does not mean there is nothing in Matthew 24:5-30 ~ that is not about the days leading up to Christ's second coming in judgment upon the whole earth after he first gathers together his elect from the four corners of the earth.

 

[Red Baker]

To me, this assertion makes any reasoned discussion with you, a waste of my time.

Sir, that's your call.

Of course we Christians are the Spiritual Temple of God on earth during this Christian age. This truth does not preclude a new Temple being built in Jerusalem, as many prophecies tell us.

We are, and the only temple where God dwells and where he will ever dwell.

There has to be a Temple, along with sacrifices and offerings; present in the end times, for the Leader of the world Government to stop them, Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess 2:4

Sir, you are not understanding such scriptures properly~which is causing you to hold to other doctrines that truly are dishonouring to Christ and his finished work of redemption which is never to be practice or offered again, never.

I'll come back and do a short work on 2nd Thess 2 later, maybe today. So you can test what I have to say with the scriptures.

Ezekiel 40 to 46 is a Prophecy, in great detail about this near future Temple, to be built by the Christian peoples, the Israelites of God.
King Jesus will dwell in it for the Millennium. Isaiah 2:1-3, Zechariah 14:16

I'm thankful you refer to Jesus as King Jesus ~ for so is he NOW at the present time, though waiting till all of his enemies are made a footstool, much like David was anointed king, yet later he ruled from Jerusalem but not as first, though king of Israel.

Acts 2:29-36~"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

1st Timothy 6:15​

“Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;”

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sir, that's your call.

We are, and the only temple where God dwells and where he will ever dwell.

Sir, you are not understanding such scriptures properly~which is causing you to hold to other doctrines that truly are dishonouring to Christ and his finished work of redemption which is never to be practice or offered again, never.

I'll come back and do a short work on 2nd Thess 2 later, maybe today. So you can test what I have to say with the scriptures.

I'm thankful you refer to Jesus as King Jesus ~ for so is he NOW at the present time, though waiting till all of his enemies are made a footstool, much like David was anointed king, yet later he ruled from Jerusalem but not as first, though king of Israel.

Recent excavations have found the ancient temple site. It is not where the muslim mosque sits, but well south of it.
The temple will be rebuilt.
The GT is for the Jews and they are the last harvest, ( fruit harvest in summer, after, grain harvest).
The temple is where the AC is revealed and Jews are no longer decieved by him.

 

[rwb]

Hello,

I agreed with your understanding of Matthew 24, more specifically the generation. It is the generation of evil or spiritual family of Satan which continued from Even to Christ’s day and to the last day when all things are fulfilled.

Nothing to do with 70AD. Or even 1967AD that premillennialism often use.

Why would an evil and adulterous generation be told to look for life in the fig tree? Christ speaks these words to His disciples, telling them to look for life to be seen once again in the fig tree that they might know the Kingdom of God has come to them, and as they go out unto all the nations of the world whosoever hears and believes the Gospel enter into the spiritual (not physical) Kingdom of God through Christ's Spirit in them. That's how we know the generation that shall not pass till all these things have been fulfilled is the chosen generation, and is not the sinful generation that shall also be with the holy people of God to the end of days.

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1 Peter 2:10 (KJV) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Red Baker]

Recent excavations have found the ancient temple site. It is not where the muslim mosque sits, but well south of it.
The temple will be rebuilt.
The GT is for the Jews and they are the last harvest, ( fruit harvest in summer, after, grain harvest).
The temple is where the AC is revealed and Jews are no longer decieved by him.

Sir, that's pure Jewish fables promoted mostly by the Scofield Reference bible that the fundamentalist of the Independent Baptist and Pentecostals have latched on to.

Watch for my post on 2nd Thess 2, later in the day and then add your comments if you desire.

 

[Red Baker]

Why would an evil and adulterous generation be told to look for life in the fig tree?

Christ did not tell them to look for the budding of the fig tree andall trees, but to his elect through the apostles.

The evil and adulterous generation of little serpents would increase greatly as this world comes to its end.

Christ speaks these words to His disciples, telling them to look for life to be seen once again in the fig tree that they might know the Kingdom of God has come to them

Sir, you have it wrong. Jesus used the fig and all tree, to teach us when those trees bring to put forth buds then we all know that summer is nigh at hand~so likewise, when we see those things which Jesus said would come to pass in Matthew 24 up until he spoke those words of the budding of the trees, then KNOW his coming is very near, even at the doors.

I must run for an appointment....later

 

[rwb]

That was what I have warned them about infidel Josephus for a long time before you came here. They are defending Josephus because of their flawed 70AD theories to build a doctrine. They do not understand that the fallen stones of the temple are PEOPLE of the congregation - the temple of Christ's body. Not physical stones. (Matthew 24:1-2, John 2:18-20)



I believe that Matthew 24 is prophesied about the New Testament Congregation right before the Second Coming when the Elect starts to see the "SIGNS" of Christ's return. For example, when they see the abomination of desolation, and the signs in the sun, moon, and stars which point to the judgment of the New Testament congregation which must take place first before the Second Coming, per 1st Peter 4:17. This is only possible with spiritual discernment. Not carnal.

Nothing to do with 70AD, Titus, or the 1st century.

I agree that we should not use Josephus for understanding the Bible. Nor do I believe the things Christ warns His disciples would come has nothing to do with these first century Jewish disciples. What Christ speaks of, are things that come upon the Church in this world throughout the age of the Gospel of Christ. I think one mistake some make is trying to force fulfillment into the time "right before the Second Coming". The Olivet Discourse speaks of things that happens to faithful saints, including those living in the days Christ walked the earth. Because the things written are not limited to only the time right before Christ coming again. They are things that began to come to pass even for the first century disciples when they began to take the Gospel of the Kingdom of God into all the nations of the world. Christ wants His disciples to know of the spiritual Kingdom of God and to understand how man may enter the Kingdom of God through the Spirit of Christ in them. Trying to limit the words of Christ to the time just prior to Christ coming again is to miss the purpose for which Christ spoke these words to His disciples of every age. Most of the discourse speaks of the physical/literal tribulation that shall come upon the Church on earth as She faithfully seeks to build the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel of Christ.

 

[rwb]

I’m not sure why they wouldn’t want to admit Jesus came in the flesh, it’s interesting that you haven’t gotten a reply yet.

I believe that's much of the purpose for Christ giving us the discourse. Especially these first century Jewish disciples were consumed with dwelling on a PHYSICAL Kingdom of God to come. Even today some who profess to be Christians are still consumed with Christ coming again to set up a physical Kingdom on this earth. Christ wrote the discourse that we might know His Kingdom has come, and it is not a physical Kingdom to be found on this earth, nor can it be physically seen, because the Kingdom of God is within you. This information would be especially important for the first century disciples to understand, that they would know by grace through faith that the spiritual Kingdom of God was fruitful even though we cannot literally/physically see it.

 

[Red Baker]

That's how we know the generation that shall not pass till all these things have been fulfilled is the chosen generation, and is not the sinful generation that shall also be with the holy people of God to the end of days.

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1 Peter 2:10 (KJV) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

There's a problem with that understanding~it fails the test of the context under consideration.

Go back and consider carefully Jesus' words starting at verse 5 down to verse 25. Who is under consideration in those verses for the main part? False prophets and their followers. Also, who are under consideration after verse 34? Read verses 37-51. Especially so 37-39.

Thank you for your consideration of those scriptures, I pray they would help you to get a better understanding of the message in Matthew 24,25, etc.

 

[Red Baker]

I believe that's much of the purpose for Christ giving us the discourse. Especially these first century Jewish disciples were consumed with dwelling on a PHYSICAL Kingdom of God to come. Even today some who profess to be Christians are still consumed with Christ coming again to set up a physical Kingdom on this earth. Christ wrote the discourse that we might know His Kingdom has come, and it is not a physical Kingdom to be found on this earth, nor can it be physically seen, because the Kingdom of God is within you. This information would be especially important for the first century disciples to understand, that they would know by grace through faith that the spiritual Kingdom of God was fruitful even though we cannot literally/physically see it.

Brother, I agree with most you said here except that the kingdom of God is within you.

I know where you take that phrase from, but if you go there and read the context carefully then you would never used that phrase again in this sense.

Luke 17:2021,~"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, and they demanded when the kingdom of God should come ~ follow Jesus' words carefully and you will see that he said it does not come with observation: neither shall they say, lo here! or, lo there, for the kingdom of God is within you...that is, within their very midst, in the person of Jesus Christ and his teachings concerning how to please God~Jesus certainly did not teach that it was within their hearts, but the kingdom of God was indeed within their very midst and they sought to killed the prince of glory for their hatred of his teachings, and his godly life living in the spiritual kingdom of God that all born again children of God live in by loving God and seeking to do his will. More on this later, maybe.

 

[Davidpt]

First, you need to understand that the Olivet Discourse was not prophesied about the Jews in the 1st Century. Rather its about SPIRITUAL Jews (Christians) in SPIRITUAL Judea (church) prior the Second Coming which I believe is taking place right now.

Second, the problem is that you pay too much respect to Flavius Josephus.

Speaking of problems, you are inventing problems that are not even true about me, lol. I already realize, and even said so, that the Discourse is mainly involving the church during His ascension through His return and what happens after He returns. As to Flavius Josephus, guess what? I have never to this day read all of what he wrote concerning this topic. I have read bits and pieces of it here and there is all. Plus what I have noted others saying about some of the things he wrote. There is no way in a million years I have too much respect for someone, such as him, let alone any respect, when I haven't even bothered to read everything he wrote pertaining to this subject to begin with.

As to the rest of this post and your next post, believe it or not, I'm on the same page with you about some of that. If only you understood the sheep and goats judgment in the same manner I do, and maybe you even do, that would put us even more on the same page. In my view the sheep and goats are meaning professed servants of Christ throughout the NT church age. The sheep meaning His profitable servants, the goats meaning His unprofitable servants. It for sure isn't meaning all the unsaved lost since the beginning of time. Cain, for example, would not be answering Christ in the following manner, the fact Christ's first advent was not remotely during the days he was living in---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?(Matthew 25:44)