Non trins are not christians or Jesus' followers.

[Phantasman]

I think it was the part about how mankind were puppets, flesh without souls, etc....waay too weird for me.
I probably should have backed away when it was "Russian dolls"...

I gotta ask you...if you believe Jesus is deity (God), how are you not a trinitarian?
This is just for my curiosity, you understand...

Flesh without souls? Who said that? Reread please.

Paul even said the first Adam was a natural man, the last one a quickening spirit (quickening means "made alive). What happened in between? Transgression, meaning to "go beyond the limits of".

1 Corinthians 15
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Puppets? OK, how about slaves instead? The knowledge of the Archons make more sense of what spiritual warfare is, to me, than the Lucifer myth. Jesus gave much knowledge on them, and so did Paul. The Acts of Jesus (4 NT Gospels) are one part of a larger teaching of what Jesus worked so hard to give us.

But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. Truth is one single thing; it is many things and for our sakes to teach about this one thing in love through many things. The rulers (archons) wanted to deceive man, since they saw that he had a kinship with those that are truly good. They took the name of those that are good and gave it to those that are not good, so that through the names they might deceive him and bind them to those that are not good. And afterward, what a favor they do for them! They make them be removed from those that are not good and place them among those that are good. These things they knew, for they wanted to take the free man and make him a slave to them forever.-Gospel of Philip

 

[brakelite]

I gotta ask you...if you believe Jesus is deity (God), how are you not a trinitarian?
This is just for my curiosity, you understand...

The modern traditional concept of the trinity is commonly accepted on the premise of three co-eternal separate yet interdependent persons. I cannot accept this for two principle reasons.
1. If Jesus is as old (or as eternally co-existent with) as the Father, then this contradicts the entire idea of Father and son, a concept upon which the whole NT is founded upon, and the character of which brings glory to both for the sacrifice of Calvary...if it were not so the whole episode of Genesis 22:1-14 is rendered meaningless, among numerous others.
2. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The spirit of man is the mind of man is it not? For when it is spoken of that we have in us the Holy Spirit, do we not from that time forth have the mind of Christ? When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, does not the scripture say that it is "Christ in us, the hope of glory'? Not another person, but Christ Himself abides in us. The Holy Spirit is not a third person, another mind apart from Christ and the Father. The Holy Spirit is the shared mind of the Father and Son.

Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

A shared Spirit. Belongs to the Father and the Son. Given to us and affirms we are God's children. It therefore is the Spirit of the Father passed on to the Son, affirming the Son as a truly begotten Son of the father, and likewise passed on to us, affirming us as adopted children of God.

Oh, I could add a third, more ummm, 'philosophical' reason for rejecting the trinity, and that would be the fact that the Roman apostasy holds the trinity as being the foundation doctrine for all her other doctrines and dogmas. For me to accept a foundational doctrine of the Antichrist as one of my own, goes against the grain. Sorry.

Due to the trinity teaching, it is believed by the majority of churches that Jesus Christ is not the literal begotten Son of God, but instead an equal, co-eternal God alongside the Father. The trinity teaching says that Jesus had no beginning and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that are playing a 'family role'. In other words, they are just play acting these roles of Father and Son. Because you are either a literal Father and Son, or you are just playing the roles.Jesus as the 'Son of God' is only a 'SYMBOLIC' application and He is not the literal Son of the Father. Yet we read throughout the scripture....

John 3:16 ...'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'
Romans 8:3 ...'God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.'
John 16:27-28 ...'For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.'
John 17:7-8 ...'Now they have known that all things whatsoever you have given me are of you. For I have given unto them the words which you gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.'
Proverbs 8:23-25 ...'I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth.'
Proverbs 30:4 ...'Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?'
John 20:17 ...'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'
Remember, God is our 'Father' by adoption. God is Christ's Father by birth!
I hope and pray that you can see the clear truth here. The Bible is very clear that Jesus came forth from the Father in eternity past, when there was nothing yet made. Jesus came forth from the Father as a literal Son. But now the churches, including my own Seventh-day Adventist Church have turned away from this vital truth and gone into apostasy. Is it important to know the truth concerning this?

1 John 2:22 ...'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.'

Yes, this issue is very important, because as the Bible clearly says in John 3:16, we are saved by the only begotten Son of God. And if you dig into the original Greek and Hebrew, you will see that Jesus was literally 'born' of God as a literal Son. So if you don't believe Jesus to be the Son of God, then how can you be saved by Him? This is very serious friends. And as 1 John 2 confirms, if you deny the Father and Son relationship, then you are an 'antichrist'.
The pillars of our faith are being rejected in the church today and the trinity teaching from Babylon has been embraced by virtually all the churches. This is something that will unite the churches in the last days. Please don't be deceived any longer. But stand on the firm foundation - Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and God gave His only Son for your salvation. Believe on the Son of God and you will be saved.
1 John 5:5 ...'Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?'

 

[brakelite]

The holy Spirit is a person but not a third person in the godhead......The Father is in Jesus and Jesus is the one in us...
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus is the Comforter....Jesus is the one in us and the Father in him
Joh_14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him,(through their shared Spirit) and make our abode with him.
Mat_28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mat_18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
NO THIRD PERSON

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

NO THIRD PERSON!!!!

 

[Phantasman]

The content before and after your 1 liners is import as well.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Jesus is omnipresent through the Holy Spirit of Truth, just as important.

No one had the Holy Spirit reside within them, until Jesus, as the first, was Christened by John the Baptist. Jesus could not even give the Spirit to another until he was glorified (arisen). At that time, Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to his followers (11 men 6 women) before his ascension.

Reference John 7:39
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

and

John 20

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


But, you are correct as the hierarchy. Jesus said his Father was his God as well as our God. His Father was our Father.

John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If you study Tertullian, there is your creator of the Trinity. A high priest of the Catholics (to me much like the high priest who set up the crucifixion).

On Tertullian:
Though conservative, he did originate and advance new theology to the early Church. He is perhaps most famous for being the oldest extant Latin writer to use the term Trinity and giving the oldest extant formulation of the Trinitarian terminology later adopted at the First Council of Nicaea

If you believe non trinitarians are not Christians, I guess all the people of the 1st and 2nd century, weren't.......Christians. The term was "coined" around 200 AD.

 

[kerwin]

I could start a thread that claimed that those that teach that Jesus is the one true God accuse God of being tempted by God. I just do not see how doing so would be profitable.

 

[Guestman]

There is no irony.

The Bible is clear on the nature of the triune God. The logic required to subordinate Jesus as a non-deity (or quasi-deity) was rightly declared heretical long ago and for good reason because it opened the door to numerous other heresies, which are often cloaked in deliberate deception or vagueness. This is one thing the spectrum of Christianity agrees upon! As the Apostle Paul said, there are certainly other gospels floating out there, and are we not called to instruct against the error of those ways?

Titus 2:12-13
And we are instructed to turn from godless living and sinful pleasures. We should live in this evil world with wisdom, righteousness, and devotion to God, while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

And, unfortunately, our age loves to cloak thoughtlessness and lack of reasoning behind the banner of being nonjudgmental. All one need do is sound super-spiritual enough.

If you are making an argument at all, be it here in the forums or even in a public forum with one person, you are making a judgment call on what you're espousing. I fully expect God to judge me for my understanding (or lack thereof) of the trinity. I don't claim to fully understand it or even be an expert on it, but Scripture is pretty clear in the status of Jesus. It also clearly states that Jesus was fully man and fully God, evident from verses like the one above. This really isn't an argument that there is much grey area on, other than small groups who come in and out of vogue as they attempt to redefine Jesus. I am not making this call or decision; the entire Christian Church universal has made this call or decision, very clearly based upon Biblical evidence.

To complete the context to the quotation of my post above, the individual to who I was responding maintained that everyone else had a personal opinion to which he effectively did not. This commentary comes even though he referred to what he doesn't care for in theology. His own opinion mediated by nothing, other than his own mind which is precisely what 2 Peter 1:20 spoke out against.

Does the Bible establish "the nature of the triune God" ? As with a court case, the facts must be presented no matter how painful it may be for some. Does Titus 2:13 say that Jesus is God ? What did the apostle Paul say when beginning to write to Titus ? He wrote: "To Titus, a genuine child according to the faith shared; May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior".(Titus 1:4)

Paul differentiates between God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. But trinitarians either disregard or just shove aside these words and then wrongly assume that Titus 2:13 is saying that God and Jesus are the same. Going further, Jesus said just hours before his death "The Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28)

Now why would Jesus say this if he were part of a triune God ? Jesus never hid the truth about his relationship with the Father nor the holy spirit, but said: "All things have been handed over to me by my Father".(Matt 11:27) How could "All things have been handed over to me by my Father" if Jesus is in reality part of a triune God that is "co-eternal and co-equal" ?

Why would Jesus say to his disciples when being arrested: "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me more than 2 legions of angels ?"(Matt 26:53) Why would he need to appeal to the Father for angels to save him if he is God ? This is where logic, reason and a genuine sincerity comes into play for those who want to find out just who God, Jesus and what the holy spirit is.

Unfortunately, as John Dickerson of Meet the Press said recently (April 2, 2017): "Studies show that when a person believes something passionately, contrary facts don’t change their mind, they make them double down". Why would people "double down" against the facts ? Because they don't want their "boat to be rocked", remaining with a mistaken belief rather than seek what really is true.

Jesus gave more "truths" about who he and the Father is, saying: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me".(John 7:16) Jesus straightforwardly acknowledged that all that he taught did not originate with him, but came from the Father, God. He firmly established this by further saying: "If anyone desires to to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or (Greek E,"a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms", Strong's Exhaustive concordance) I speak of my own originality".(John 7:17) It is like saying: "Do you want tomatoes or onions ?, whereby there is a clear distinction between the two.

Thus Jesus clearly distinguished himself from God by the Greek word E as well as all his other words. For example, why is the temple called "the house of my Father" and not "my house" if he is part of a triune God ?(John 2:16) If Jesus is God, then why did he say to his eleven faithful apostles: "But for the world to know that I love the Father, I am doing just as the Father commanded me to do" ?(John 14:31) Can a co-equal command the other to do anything ? No, but the one greater can do so and hence Jesus accurately said that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28)

Of the holy spirit, Jesus said to his disciples after his resurrection: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father (not Jesus) has promised, about which you heard from me; for John, indeed, baptized with water, but you will be baptized (or immersed) with holy spirit not many days after this......you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you".(Acts 1:4, 5, 8)

Thus, just as water is not a person but something that a person can be dipped under, so likewise the holy is not part of a triune God, but as Jesus said, it is a "power" that can move people (and things) to accomplish what God wants. The holy spirit is Jehovah God's active force that he used to create the universe and its life.(see Ps 104:30) It is a force that a person can be "baptized" into or immersed with.

 

[Angelina]

If the Holy Spirit were not a person, he would not be referred to in the bible as a "He" John 15:26, 16:13-14. If the Holy Spirit were not a person, he would not be included in Matthew 28:19. The Holy Spirit could not be grieved, Ephes 4:30, sinned against, Isaiah 63:10, or lied to, Acts 5:3 if he were just a force and not a personal being.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 says ~ Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed in his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”

I personally do not agree with the above Thread title simply because understanding the Trinity is not included in the gospel message. It is something that we learn as we grow in Christ and not something we automatically understand from our un-renewed hearts.