Paul never claimed Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

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MatthewG

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Yes, the word is used to refer to someone being alive and living their lives. It is not used to refer to the act of being resurrected from death to life. Keep that in mind when reading Revelation 20. And please consider how the word anazao is used to refer to the rest of the dead instead of the word zao. That isn't by accident. The word anazao is used to refer to people being resurrected to life, but zao is not. So, Revelation 20:4 is not referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ while verse 5 is referring to the bodily resurrection of "the rest of the dead".
4 Then I saw tthrones, and useated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw vthe souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those wwho had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. xThey came to life and yreigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4​

thrones: Dan 7:9, Dan 7:18, Dan 7:22, Dan 7:27; Mat 19:28; Luk 22:30; 1Co 6:2-3

the souls: Rev 6:9; Mal 4:5; Mat 17:10-13; Mar 9:11; Luk 1:17, Luk 9:7-9

beheaded: Mat 24:10; Mar 6:16, Mar 6:27; Luk 9:9

the witness: Rev 1:9, Rev 11:3, Rev 11:7, Rev 12:11

and which: Rev 13:12-17, Rev 14:11, Rev 15:2, Rev 17:8

and they: Rev 5:9, Rev 11:11, Rev 11:15; Dan 2:44, Dan 7:18, Dan 7:27; Rom 8:17, Rom 11:15; 2Ti 2:12

Yeah, I think this was about the first resurrection. I still got a lot of studying to do either way it goes.
 
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Truth7t7

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Yeah, I think this was about the first resurrection. I still got a lot of studying to do either way it goes.
There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

ewq1938

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You were 100% correct to post this counter thread, and every bit within your rights to do so.

Yeah. It's always ok to start a thread of your own. It's good to offer an alternative thread that speaks the truth in the title.
 
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ewq1938

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49. Did Paul say Revelation 20:4 already happened?


No.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Some Amillennialists believe these scriptures are speaking of the same thing as Revelation 20:4:


Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



Paul wasn't literally sitting in heaven when he wrote that, nor was he beheaded, nor did he live again after being physically dead. The beheaded dead saints that come back to life and rule with Christ are not the ones who were sitting on the thrones. The two passages do not match at all aside from the mention of "sitting".


Revelation 20:4 is speaking of a physical resurrection of saved Christians. Ephesians 2:4-6 is speaking of formerly unsaved (spiritually dead) people accepting Christ and their souls being spiritually quickened resulting in them being saved by grace. Revelation 20:4 is what will physically happen to some of these Ephesians 2:4-6 saved people. It will be how they physically die. This will happen in the Great Tribulation which has not yet even started.

Don't confuse the physical resurrection of the physically dead in Revelation 20:4 with the spiritual conversion (being saved) of unbelievers becoming believers in any part of the bible. The two events are obviously not the same.
 
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Truth7t7

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Revelation 20:4 is speaking of a physical resurrection of saved Christians.
"Wrong"

It's speaking of "Souls" that are living and reigning in the Lord's Eternal Spiritual Realm, waiting for the last day resurrection of all
 
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rwb

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49. Did Paul say Revelation 20:4 already happened?


No.

Of course, Paul didn't say Rev 20:4 is a current reality, John did! In fact, John writes these beheaded saints after death, are seen alive in heaven because in time, which a thousand years symbolizes they LIVED and REIGNED on earth with Christ spiritually. Beheaded souls don't live in TIME in heaven because heaven is eternal, and this earth, that exists in TIME will pass away.

When believers die and as living soul go to heaven, we have entered into eternal life with Christ in heaven. Because it is our spirit, indwelt with His Spirit within, that is promised eternal life, not our physical body. Christ never promised these bodies of death will be eternal. He promises our physical mortal bodies will be resurrected and changed to immortality and incorruptible. We now, through the resurrection of Christ, Who is the first resurrection, possess eternal life through our spirit in dwelt with the life-giving Spirit. So, when we die the eternal life we spiritually possess through the life-giving Spirit within us never dies.
 

ewq1938

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"Wrong"

It's speaking of "Souls" that are living and reigning in the Lord's Eternal Spiritual Realm, waiting for the last day resurrection of all


No, they are people (called souls) who are physically resurrected just as Christ was.
 

Davy

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That didn't address them and I did say that it was saved people being physically killed in the great tribulation.

What you didn't address was the three events that Paul mentioned that are also in revelation 4:20 here they are again

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
That is given in relation to the FUTURE RESURRECTION that only will happen on the day of Christ's FUTURE RETURN. Nor does that single Rev.20:4 stand in isolation, but MUST be understood in context with the whole Rev.20 Chapter.

Rev 20:1-6
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


The previous Rev.19 Chapter showed the day of Christ's future return, and subduing all of Satan's host, and destroying the beast and false prophet in the "lake of fire", with Satan ("dragon") being spared. That right there is a very solid pointer of these Rev.20 events following those Rev.19 events.

So at verse 1 above, the beast system is destroyed, and the false prophet is destroyed. Yet Satan is not destroyed, so what happens to him at Christ's return? Satan is shown here being locked in his pit prison FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. That is no metaphor. The end of Isaiah 24 also reveals the kings of the earth that served him will also be locked in that pit prison, and after "many days" will be visited. That... is a pointer to this "thousand years" and this Rev.20 time.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The souls beheaded for the witness of Jesus is specifically about Christians. And in Rev.6 on the 5th Seal, those beheaded "for the word of God" is about those souls under the Altar that ask God 'how long' before He issues His vengeance. Those souls are the dead executed for The Word of God back in Old Testament times, and New Testament times. They are told to wait yet a season, until their brethren are killed as they were, which is about the saints during the COMING TRIBULATION that will be delivered up to give a Witness for Christ and will be killed for it.

The reference to those which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, nor received his mark, is SPECIFIC TO THOSE WHO GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION. And we know... that great trib time is on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing JUST PRIOR TO CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN ON THE 7TH TRUMPET - 3RD WOE. And that means the LAST GENERATION ON EARTH.

Thus there is NO WAY to push those events backwards in time in history. Christ Jesus has NOT returned to this earth yet, but He will. When He does return, that is when these Rev.20 events will happen.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
KJV


In Rev.2 & 3 Jesus promised His faithful would reign with Him with the "rod of iron". That "rod of iron" of His future reign was promised Him back in Psalms 2 about His future literal rule over all nations and peoples on earth. Jesus has NEVER ruled over all nations and peoples on earth to this day. So that's easy to know when that happens, i.e., in the future.
 

Gilligan

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Examples posted are always of physically alive people accepting Christ and spiritually becoming alive ie: being saved.

Rev 20:4 is vastly different with already saved people who already had accepted Christ, refusing the mark of the beast etc during the GT and are beheaded (physically killed) and at the timeframe of Rev 20, are resurrected back to physical life.

Amill totally ignores the fact that the beheaded saints were ALREADY SPIRITUALLY ALIVE before being beheaded and they don't seem to understand that being beheaded means a person physically dies. Details like these don't matter to Amill.
Beheaded is one of those one time used words by God, that is always spiritually sacrificial with the saved believer, and could be physical as with Paul.

The word is specifically used for temple slaying of animal sacrifices to God, which were commanded by the law of Moses for the true God, and followed by nations to their gods, that are no gods. In pagan Greek and near East religion, it is most known for the Minoan double-sided axe.

When we crucify our old man of sin on our cross, that we take up for Jesus Christ, we are inwardly circumcised by the Spirit of Christ, as well as inwardly beheaded of our old life of sin. We now may hold only to the Head of the church and body of Christ Jesus.

Both our old heads get cut off. :vgood:

The error of amils, is that they say such beheading is only spiritual, and not physical, so that the first resurrection is only spiritual and not bodily. They only do so in order to say the reign of Christ on earth is only spiritual, and never physical with the immortal resurrected bodies of His saints.

I'm still not sure why they so zealously hate the very idea of Jesus personally reigning over the nations on earth as King, and so despise anyone who believes the prophecies of it, but it is what it is.
 
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ScottA

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Examples posted are always of physically alive people accepting Christ and spiritually becoming alive ie: being saved.

Rev 20:4 is vastly different with already saved people who already had accepted Christ, refusing the mark of the beast etc during the GT and are beheaded (physically killed) and at the timeframe of Rev 20, are resurrected back to physical life.

Amill totally ignores the fact that the beheaded saints were ALREADY SPIRITUALLY ALIVE before being beheaded and they don't seem to understand that being beheaded means a person physically dies. Details like these don't matter to Amill.

If "beheading" spiritually meant "removing their head whom is Christ" (as was the case with John the Baptist, proceeding the crucifixion of Christ--a foreshadowing)...how would you then interpret the beheadings foretold of the Great tribulation?

Because it does.

@Truth7t7
 
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