Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

[APAK]

Okay, instead of that large Exodus picture of the type/antitype I related above, I will offer the more succinct version that God gave to Israel...the sanctuary itself. Ps 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
The sanctuary service, with its furniture, its setting, and its priesthood, was the gospel for Israel. Throughout it reveals the gospel to us...it prefigures everything the NT offers. The sanctuary and everything associated with it is the earthly shadow, the OT shadow, of the NT and heavenly reality.
The altar of sacrifice was the figure of the true sacrifice of Calvary. But Israel wasn't saved at the altar. The blood of the covenant needed to be carried into the sanctuary. The priest needed to minister there for the redemption of Israel, with all things pointing to Christ, and that redemption was not complete until the day of atonement, itself a type of the latter-day Day of Atonement immediately prior to the second coming of the High Priest to the earth to take His people home.
The reality is now being enacted in heaven itself where our High Priest ministers in blood in the heavenly sanctuary. The shedding of blood was but the beginning. In that blood was the confessed sins of the people. Those sins in the OT were carried into the sanctuary and in type transferred/sprinkled before the curtain. In heaven written upon the books of record. That record of our sins are not yet blotted out. Not until the High Priest leaves the sanctuary/temple at the conclusion of the Day Of Atonement is our salvation secure...and those sins were blotted out and removed only on condition of the continuing repentant attitude of the people, both of Israel in the OT and spiritual Israel in the New.

Brakelite:

Jesus just didn’t replace the high priest and his daily and annual services within the Mosaic sanctuary as the mediator to God for the forgiveness of our sins. He replaced or fulfilled the purpose of the high priest in the physical sanctuary on earth and the need for a sacrificial lamb for the shedding of blood on the base of the altar of God, for personal sins. Once Jesus atoned for ours sins once and for all, on Calvary, he thus ‘cleansed the sanctuary’ with his constant access to God in heaven. He made the sanctuary itself redundant and the need for earthly priests as intercessor between God and man’s sins.

Jesus never had to leave the sanctuary because he was never in it. He replaced or moved some functions of it as he now has direct access to God, as the holy of holies in heaven; as our direct mediator to God.

As you said he sacrificed his life (Calvary) in the outside court, as the burnt offering of the goat/lamb at the altar of burn offerings, in public and not in private display. The confirmation of this was his own blood shed on the cross and God’s physical destruction of the 3rd and final temple and sanctuary around 70 AD.

If our sins are still remembered and recorded today in some book in heaven, where is this fact recorded in scripture? Wouldn’t it be late to address past recorded sins after we arise when called or transformed in a twinkling of an eye to immortality? Is God going to take back our immortality in our glorious bodies if he decided not to blot out some of our past sins? It makes no sense.

It seems you have a doctrine of grace + works = salvation ‘like’ although different, from the religion you oppose.

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” Hebrews 10:16,17



Bless you brother,


APAK

 

[Helen]

to epostle1, nonbelievers are not redeemed. Redemption is a result of getting saved. Eph 1 and Col 1 are talking about believers in Christ, and as we all know Eph 1:13-14 is OSAS passage.

Yes, I agree with OSAS...but I cannot believe that redeemed does not mean redeemed,
Redeemed is the result of the price of redemption be paid.

ALL are redeemed, the full price paid, the prison gates opened.
Some come out..some still sit there in the damp and dark. Their choice.

Just had to say that.

Bless you...Helen.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Right, but to you believing and confessing is a work, which is false Eph 2:8-9.

This verse doesn't say a THING about confessing so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
However, you are cherry-picking again because you take ONE verse and absolutize it to cover EVERYTHING.
Jesus didn't do that.

Jesus said that SEVERAL things were necessary for salvation - not the LEAST of which was DOING the will of God (Matt. 7:21). He ALSO said that we must be BAPTIZED with water (Mark 16:16, John 3:5) and that we must pick up our cross DAILY (Luke 9:23). ALL of the Beatitudes that are salvation-based are WORKS (Matt. 5:1-12).
The Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats is about salvation and how it is affected by our WORKS (Matt. 25:31-46).

As I stated earlier - Belief is a good place to START - but we don't finish there when it comes to true faith.

BOL, forgiveness, salvation and redemption are a package deal. Why do you ignore the text, it's right there for you to see...

Eph 1:5-7 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption (apolutrósis) through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption (apolutrósis) of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Col 1:12-14 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption (apolutrósis), the forgiveness of sins.

And Peter spoke WISELY about people like YOU who don't understand Paul's writings and twist them to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul is talking about the redemption of those who ALREADY follow Christ. He is NOT making a general statement about what Jesus did on the cross - which is PAY FOR (redeem) the sins of the ENTIRE world.

You take Heb 6 and Heb 10 as literal, but in reality it's figurative for maturity in Christ. Heb 6 and 10 are also used as a cross reference for the crucifixion of Jesus. Reading my responses over and over does nothing if you do not believe. The word "confidence" is mentioned twice in Heb 10 and is also mentioned in 1 Jhn 5:9-14 and Rom 8:38-39 which are both OSAS scripture. There's too many contradictions for Heb 6 and Heb 10 to be literal.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

And I see that you LEFT OUT Heb. 10:26-27 which speak of those born again believers having had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and being in danger of LOSING their "secure"place with God.

Try wiggling your way out of "Epignosis".
I already gave a scholarly clinic on this word to your friend Taken on another post from which he is STILL reeling . . .

Right, it's about obedience of faith, and what is the definition of faith?

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

Yes - and I ALREADY showed you that fidelity and faithfulness takes WORK.

Just as a married man works at his fidelity and faithfulness to his wife - so does the Christian WORK at his fidelity and faithfulness to Christ.
THIS is what Paul is talking about in Phil. 2:12 when he admonishes his readers to WORK OUT their salvation with "fear and trembling."

BOL, to understand these passages you need to read it in full context, Matt 7:15-23. In Matt 7:15, Jesus is making a comparison between believers and nonbelievers by using the words sheep and wolves. Believers in Christ are the sheep, and nonbelievers are the wolves. The nonbelievers were the one's working their way into the kingdom, which Jesus plainly says depart from me workers of iniquity.

God bless

Those false prophets and unbelievers in Matt. 7:15-23 don't have TRUE faith because they only have WORKS.
On the other hand - YOU are advocating another counterfeit faith by dissecting works from faith to have only "Belief".

This is just as empty and impotent as those people in Matt. 7:15-23 . . .[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[epostle1]

Right, but to you believing and confessing is a work, which is false Eph 2:8-9.

By demonizing the word "work", you make void Eph 2:8-9. You lump together "works of the law" with "good works". They are different words with different meanings. "believing and confessing" are good works, not works of the law.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24

BOL, forgiveness, salvation and redemption are a package deal. Why do you ignore the text, it's right there for you to see...

John 3:16 for God so loved the world... it does not say for God so loved only believers. "forgiveness, salvation and redemption" are related, but they are not the same. Double predestination was invented by John Calvin; it's not in the Bible and was never taught by anyone until Calvin showed up.

Eph 1:5-7 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption (apolutrósis) through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

This is another Calvinoid false dichotomy. Because the word "redemption" is in the verse does not mean that God doesn't love the whole world.(see John 3:16) It means redemption is applied to adopted sons along with everybody else. All are redeemed but not all are adopted sons/daughters.

Heb. 9:12 – Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption (apolutrósis) of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Col 1:12-14 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption (apolutrósis), the forgiveness of sins.

Eph. 1:5 – Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 – therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose)
You can't put to grace and to glory into a blender to make a scriptural smoothie.

You take Heb 6 and Heb 10 as literal, but in reality it's figurative for maturity in Christ. Heb 6 and 10 are also used as a cross reference for the crucifixion of Jesus. Reading my responses over and over does nothing if you do not believe. The word "confidence" is mentioned twice in Heb 10 and is also mentioned in 1 Jhn 5:9-14 and Rom 8:38-39 which are both OSAS scripture. There's too many contradictions for Heb 6 and Heb 10 to be literal.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

Right, it's about obedience of faith, and what is the definition of faith?

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

BOL, to understand these passages you need to read it in full context, Matt 7:15-23. In Matt 7:15, Jesus is making a comparison between believers and nonbelievers by using the words sheep and wolves. Believers in Christ are the sheep, and nonbelievers are the wolves. The nonbelievers were the one's working their way into the kingdom, which Jesus plainly says depart from me workers of iniquity.
God bless

Jesus is telling to beware of false prophets (wolves), He is not comparing believers and nonbelievers. Matthew 7:15-23 is about knowing good fruit from bad fruit. The bad tree gets thrown into the fire.
A biblical understanding of the difference between predestination to grace (which we could lose) and predestination to glory (what we cannot lose) makes mincemeat out of OSAS.

 

[Heb 13:8]

This verse doesn't say a THING about confessing so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
However, you are cherry-picking again because you take ONE verse and absolutize it to cover EVERYTHING.
Jesus didn't do that.

Eph 2:8-9 is in regards to getting saved BOL, it proves that believing and confessing is not a work.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

not the LEAST of which was DOING the will of God (Matt. 7:21).

And that's what His sheep do, they do the will of God. The wolves do not Matt 7:15.

He ALSO said that we must be BAPTIZED with water (Mark 16:16, John 3:5)

Spiritual water, not H2O.

and that we must pick up our cross DAILY (Luke 9:23)

has to do with discipline and sanctification, it has nothing to do with losing salvation.

ALL of the Beatitudes that are salvation-based are WORKS (Matt. 5:1-12).

There's that word believe again...

Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

Jhn 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

The Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats is about salvation and how it is affected by our WORKS (Matt. 25:31-46).

Right, and the sheep are those who have come to faith in Jesus Christ inside the 70th week, and the goats are nonbelievers. Sheep/wolves, Sheep/goats.

As I stated earlier - Belief is a good place to START - but we don't finish there when it comes to true faith.

And that's what believers in Christ have, is true faith.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Phil 1:5-6 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Jhn 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

And Peter spoke WISELY about people like YOU who don't understand Paul's writings and twist them to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

And those on the path of destruction are those who do not have Jesus Christ. He is the gate to salvation, but you don't need Him because you can save yourself, right BOL?

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Jhn 10:7-10 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

2 Pet 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul is talking about the redemption of those who ALREADY follow Christ. He is NOT making a general statement about what Jesus did on the cross - which is PAY FOR (redeem) the sins of the ENTIRE world.

BOL, what do you think we're believing in when getting saved, we're believing in what Jesus did on the cross. (death, burial, resurrection)

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption (apolutrósis) of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

And I see that you LEFT OUT Heb. 10:26-27 which speak of those born again believers having had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and being in danger of LOSING their "secure"place with God.

Try wiggling your way out of "Epignosis".
I already gave a scholarly clinic on this word to your friend Taken on another post from which he is STILL reeling . . .

BOL, it's because you think it's literal, but the author is using figurative language for maturity in Christ. Heb 10:26-27 is actually a cross reference with Heb 6:4-6.

Yes - and I ALREADY showed you that fidelity and faithfulness takes WORK.

And this work is through belief in the finished work of the cross. Are demons considered righteous and called friend's of God?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Just as a married man works at his fidelity and faithfulness to his wife - so does the Christian WORK at his fidelity and faithfulness to Christ.
THIS is what Paul is talking about in Phil. 2:12 when he admonishes his readers to WORK OUT their salvation with "fear and trembling."

Right, work out not work for.

On the other hand - YOU are advocating another counterfeit faith by dissecting works from faith to have only "Belief".

Preaching the finished work of the cross and depending on God to save you rather than yourself is not counterfeit. Again, this work is through belief in the finished work of the cross. Are demons considered righteous and called friend's of God?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

 

[Heb 13:8]

By demonizing the word "work", you make void Eph 2:8-9. You lump together "works of the law" with "good works". They are different words with different meanings. "believing and confessing" are good works, not works of the law.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24

epostle1, James 2 has nothing to do with losing salvation. The context is Godly righteousness or lack thereof.

James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

James 2:24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

Works of the law or good works?, what's the difference when you think that believers in Christ can fall away and end up in hell. Non-osas is a false doctrine.

John 3:16 for God so loved the world... it does not say for God so loved only believers. "forgiveness, salvation and redemption" are related, but they are not the same. Double predestination was invented by John Calvin; it's not in the Bible and was never taught by anyone until Calvin showed up.

Right, you only become a believer through BELIEF.

Jhn 3:12-18 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

but redemption is not the same thing as salvation.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption (apolutrósis) of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end.

No, the guarantee is through what God already did for us on the cross. If we If we, If we If we, it's not about you epostle1.

Eph. 1:5 – Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

And free will is the reason why sanctification and God disciplining His children exists, Heb 12.

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Phil 1:5-6 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Jhn 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

 

[Heb 13:8]

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 – therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose)
You can't put to grace and to glory into a blender to make a scriptural smoothie.

And God will have His way with those who are in Christ. Is He not a jealous God? Do you not believe in the power of God?

Phil 1:5-6 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Pet 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jesus is telling to beware of false prophets (wolves), He is not comparing believers and nonbelievers. Matthew 7:15-23

Oh, but He is.

Luke 15:1-7 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” 3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Jhn 10:7-10 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Jhn 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than allc ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Act 20:28-30 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

A biblical understanding of the difference between predestination to grace (which we could lose) and predestination to glory (what we cannot lose) makes mincemeat out of OSAS.

No, what makes mincemeat out of false doctrine is spiritual blindness.

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

 

[epostle1]

epostle1, James 2 has nothing to do with losing salvation.

I didn't say that and neither does James in 2:24. You should read my posts and not read into them what you want.

The context is Godly righteousness or lack thereof.

The context is "A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." Faith and works are organically fused. Dancing around James 2:24 will give you a scriptural hernia.

James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

James 2:24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

What they do is another way of saying good works, works is not a four letter word.

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

Sending spies the wrong way was a good work, and it counted for something, even for a hooker. You wouldn't know a good work if it hit you over the head. In fact, hitting you over the head would be a good work, if it brought you to your senses.

Works of the law or good works?, what's the difference when you think that believers in Christ can fall away and end up in hell. Non-osas is a false doctrine.

Again, you twist my words into things I never said. Believers in Christ cannot fall away if they endure to the end. I don't think proof texts will convince you otherwise. Perseverance appears about 11 times in the NT. I could flood the page with scripture, but the word is as confusing to you as good works.

Right, you only become a believer through BELIEF.

I don't deny that. Scripture says belief is the beginning, scripture does not say BELIEF is the be-all-and-end-all. You read scripture with a chain saw.

Jhn 3:12-18 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Belief is the beginning, a means to an end, it is not an end in itself. Believing is critical, but nowhere in scripture is believing ALL you need. That reduces faith to a free ticket or an inoculation. Even demons believe, and they tremble. Using John 3 alone is a false dichotomy; and an abuse of scripture.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption (apolutrósis) of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1 doesn't disprove redemption for the human race. "guaranteeing our inheritance until..." What part of "until" don't you understand?
"guaranteeing our inheritance instantly.."??? Is that how you read it???

No, the guarantee is through what God already did for us on the cross. If we If we, If we If we, it's not about you epostle1.

Justification is a process, Instant justification is a man made tradition. So is instant soup, instant potatoes.

And free will is the reason why sanctification and God disciplining His children exists, Heb 12.

Why would God discipline His children if their salvation is assured?

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

"...carry it on to completion" does not mean we are completed. We are completed when we persevere and DIE. That's what the day of Christ Jesus means. After we persevere and die, then we can be 100% absolutely guaranteed certain of our salvation, NOT BEFORE.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world..." It doesn't say "for God so loved just believers".

Phil 1:5-6 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

We can be confident of this after we are dead.

1 Jhn 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

There is nothing in these verses that says our salvation is guaranteed. They list perks for those who do believe.

Gal. 5:6 – the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith. Get it?

 

[Taken]

And is the Holy Spirit the one who taught tens of thousands of different men to teach tens of thousands of different and polar opposite doctrines that contradict each other?

How Silly!

The Lord reveals His Word.
The Lord reveals His Understanding to men whom believe and whom His Word applies and whom seek His understanding.

You reveal you do not know how to determine what applies to you or the understanding thereof.

ALL

of your posts are long-winded rants that run on seemingly forever with no real conclusion.

It appears you seek your "holy father" for the understanding of Scripture.

I seek thee Only "Holy Father, Lord God" for my understanding of Scripture.

It is of no surprise to me, we do not understand the same.

First of all - how do YOU know what happened to the 11 remaining Apostles after Judas??

First of all - Scripture teaches what happens to men who are IN Christ.

The Bible doesn't tell us.

Carnal interest VS Spiritual interest.

It is Catholic Church Tradition that fills in the blanks as to what happened to the rest.

Not news. Suffering, persecution, being hated, and the Lord with them forever was foretold.

That being said - the very Bible you swear by

I believe and trust the Word of God....
Which was GIVEN first man, Given the Hebrews, Given the Jews, and Given the Gentiles.
I do not recall any mention of Catholics.

was compiled and declared Canononical by that SAME Church that you reject.

Compiled and declared?

Compiled from what? Oh Right...writings God declared to be written. But if you want to declare the Catholics take credit for Scriptural
Writing, that's you, not me.

Why do YOU believe in it??

Because I trust to believe the Lords Word is True.

Finally - as long as you keep rejecting God's Word

Making up FALSE ACCUSATIONS does NOT make you RIGHT. It simply reveals repeatedly you are A FALSE ACCUSER.

Does "your holy father" give you blessing for that behavior?

 

[Heb 13:8]

You wouldn't know a good work if it hit you over the head. In fact, hitting you over the head would be a good work, if it brought you to your senses.

Now you know how Jesus felt with the Pharisees.

Even demons believe, and they tremble.

Are demons considered righteous and called friends of God?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Believers in Christ cannot fall away if they endure to the end.

If if if if, it's not about you epostle1.

Belief is the beginning, a means to an end, it is not an end in itself. Believing is critical, but nowhere in scripture is believing ALL you need.

Right, we also need sanctification and discipline, things that God works in us instead of sending us to hell.

Justification is a process, Instant justification is a man made tradition. So is instant soup, instant potatoes.

No, justification is a one time event, sanctification is the process.

Why would God discipline His children if their salvation is assured?

Because we live in a fallen world.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world..." It doesn't say "for God so loved just believers".

Right, it says whoever believes will have eternal life. You should quote the whole passage.

We can be confident of this after we are dead.

No, we are confident now as stated in Rom 8:38-39 and 1 Jhn 5:9-14.

There is nothing in these verses that says our salvation is guaranteed. They list perks for those who do believe.

To the religious or I guess I should say the confused and spiritually blind, yes salvation is not guaranteed because they have not fully surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ, and fully surrendering is believing and confessing Rom 10:9.

Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith. Get it?

Right to perfect our faith, not lose it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Eph 2:8-9 is in regards to getting saved BOL, it proves that believing and confessing is not a work.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

WRONG.
First of all - Eph. 2:8-9 says absolutely NOTHING about confessing your sins. Anyway - confessing is cooperating with God's grace of faith.

And that's what His sheep do, they do the will of God. The wolves do not Matt 7:15.

Correct. His Sheep mus DO - not just sit back and "believe" . . .

Spiritual water, not H2O.

WHERE does Mark 16:16 or John 3:5 state this??
Can you show me??

John 3:5 is surrounded by verses regarding H2O:
- In John 1, we see the Baptism of Jesus. We see WATER (H2O) and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove.
- In John 2, we see the Wedding at Cana and His first miracle where He changes WATER (H2O) into wine.
- In John 3:3-5, we see Jesus telling Nicodemus that a man must be born again of WATER (H2O) and Spirit.
- In John 3, AFTER speaking to Nicodemus, we see Jesus and the Apostles BAPTIZING in WATER (H2O).

has to do with discipline and sanctification, it has nothing to do with losing salvation.

WRONG.
It has to do with cooperating with God's saving grace.

There's that word believe again...

Ummmm, NOT in the Beatitudes - OR in the Lesson of the Sheep and Goats.

In BOTH places, we see that those who are saved are those who were DOING the will of God - not simply "believing". James 2:19 reminds us that even the DEMONS believe but that doesn't save them - nor will it save YOU.

And that's what believers in Christ have, is true faith.

WRONG.
The Demons are "believers" (James 2:19) but they don't have faith.

There are MANY people who believe in God - but choose NOT to follow Him.

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

NOT really sure why you keep pasting this definition - when it only serves to bolster MY position.

Just as a married man works at his fidelity and faithfulness to his wife - so does the Christian WORK at his fidelity and faithfulness to Christ.
THIS is what Paul is talking about in Phil. 2:12 when he admonishes his readers to WORK OUT their salvation with "fear and trembling."

 

[BreadOfLife]

And those on the path of destruction are those who do not have Jesus Christ. He is the gate to salvation, but you don't need Him because you can save yourself, right BOL?

I have Him more substantively than YOU do because I have Him spiritually AND physically in the Eucharist.

BOL, what do you think we're believing in when getting saved, we're believing in what Jesus did on the cross. (death, burial, resurrection)

Jesus DIED on the cross.
He didn't get buried and rise from the dead until AFTER He was taken down from the cross.

BOL, it's because you think it's literal, but the author is using figurative language for maturity in Christ. Heb 10:26-27 is actually a cross reference with Heb 6:4-6.

NONSENSE.
Epignosis has a literal meaning and is used TWELVE times in the New Testament.
Are you now going to tell me that ALL 12 times it is only being used "figuratively"??

Go sell your disobedience and lack of faith somewhere else . . .

And this work is through belief in the finished work of the cross. Are demons considered righteous and called friend's of God?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Right, work out not work for.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

True Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works)

Preaching the finished work of the cross and depending on God to save you rather than yourself is not counterfeit. Again, this work is through belief in the finished work of the cross. Are demons considered righteous and called friend's of God?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

WRONG.
It's counterfeit when you attempt to dissect obedient works from faith.

As I have educated you MANY time now - True Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works)

 

[BreadOfLife]

How Silly!

The Lord reveals His Word.
The Lord reveals His Understanding to men whom believe and whom His Word applies and whom seek His understanding.

You reveal you do not know how to determine what applies to you or the understanding thereof.

No - tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines while claiming they were ALL led by the Holy Spirit is not "silly". It's tragic and it's an abomination before God.

It appears you seek your "holy father" for the understanding of Scripture.

I seek thee Only "Holy Father, Lord God" for my understanding of Scripture.
It is of no surprise to me, we do not understand the same.

Not only does this have NOTHING to do with what we were talking about - you just PROVED my point again . . .

First of all - Scripture teaches what happens to men who are IN Christ.
Carnal interest VS Spiritual interest. Not news. Suffering, persecution, being hated, and the Lord with them forever was foretold.

Ummmmm, YOU indicated what happened to the other Apostles yet you have absolutely ZERO evidence for your claims except for what you have heard from CATHOLIC TRADITION.

Scripture DOESN'T tell us what happened to them . . .

I believe and trust the Word of God....
Which was GIVEN first man, Given the Hebrews, Given the Jews, and Given the Gentiles.
I do not recall any mention of Catholics.

Compiled and declared?

Compiled from what? Oh Right...writings God declared to be written. But if you want to declare the Catholics take credit for Scriptural
Writing, that's you, not me.
Because I trust to believe the Lords Word is True.

Yet, it was the CATHOLIC CHURCH who sifted through the hundreds of Books and declared WHICH ones wee inspired under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This was NOT left up to ANY of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that YOU refer to as "The Church."
Why do YOU consider it to be the "Lord's Word" if its canonicity was decided upon by a "false" church??
This is hypocrisy at its WORST . . .

Making up FALSE ACCUSATIONS does NOT make you RIGHT. It simply reveals repeatedly you are A FALSE ACCUSER.
Does "your holy father" give you blessing for that behavior?

I'm not a "false accuser".

It is YOU who cannot accept the word "Epignosis" that is used TWELVE times in the New Testament to describe born again believers in Christ. Remember - ALL Scripture is GOD-BREATHED . . .[/QUOTE]

 

[Enoch111]

It's tragic and it's an abomination before God.

This could equally apply to the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church. Enforced celibacy is a doctrine of devils.

 

[epostle1]

Now you know how Jesus felt with the Pharisees.

Jesus didn't need to be brought to his senses, and He didn't teach the false doctrine of OSAS.

Are demons considered righteous and called friends of God?

Surely, you can't be that stupid.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

James does not say Abraham was justified instantly.

John 3:16 – justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey).

The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 – Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

You are recycling the same losing arguments you gave a few weeks ago. I won't waste my time refuting them a third time.

If if if if, it's not about you epostle1.

That has nothing to do with the quote of mine. I said: "Believers in Christ cannot fall away if they endure to the end." Perseverance, found in the NT 11 times, destroys the OSAS myth. If salvation is assured, you don't need to persevere.

[/QUOTE]

 

[BreadOfLife]

This could equally apply to the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church. Enforced celibacy is a doctrine of devils.

Priestly celibacy is not a "doctrine", Einstein.
It's a DISCIPLINE - like not eating meat on Fridays during Lent or fasting on Good Friday.

You need to do some homework before you attempt to debate anything Catholic . . .

 

[epostle1]

This could equally apply to the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church. Enforced celibacy is a doctrine of devils.

This is not a well thought out reply.
First, there is no such thing as enforced celibacy. Men entering the seminary do so by their own free will. They can leave anytime. They have 7 years to pray about their decision. What really bothers you is the fact that we have men and women who give up everything to follow Him, including spouse and children (there are exceptions, some priests have wives and children). You don't have such a high degree of dedication and commitment in your system so you mock what you refuse to understand.

Second, 1 Timothy 4 1-3 is a popular verse taken our of context by fundamentalists and Jehovah's Witlesses. They think it disproves celibacy. Here is why their interpretation is a load of taurus excretum.

Paul is not referring to a mandatory discipline that would not be formalized until the 11th century. No Apostle has prophesied about a disciplinary ruling, so it's ludicrous to think Paul is making a prophecy.

Paul is talking about the Gnostics. They forbade marriage not out of the teachings of Jesus and Paul on celibacy, but because they believed the flesh was evil. They fasted from certain foods; not because they were following Jesus' instructions on fasting, but because they believed the foods were evil. If you study 1st century gnostics, this is exactly what they did.

Let's suppose for a minute Paul is talking about celibacy in the future.
Anti-Catholics like Dave Hunt will go to the amazing extent of embracing the Albigensians as Christian brothers, in order to find a Christian “church” which runs counter to the Catholic (or Orthodox) Church in this period.
These heretics were Manichaean-type dualists

• who believed that flesh and material creation were evil and that
• “Christ was an angel with a phantom body who, consequently, did not suffer or rise again.”
• They rejected the sacraments,
• hell,
• the resurrection of the body,
• and condemned marriage.

Yet Dave Hunt is ready to accept them as Christian brothers before he will offer the right hand of fellowship and the title of “Christian” to a Catholic like myself! A prime example of irrational anti-Catholicism if ever there was one!

Matt. 19:11-12 – Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church’s practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

The Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and life-giving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

 

[Philip James]

To the religious or I guess I should say the confused and spiritually blind, yes salvation is not guaranteed because they have not fully surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ, and fully surrendering is believing and confessing Rom 10:9.

The Catholic religious surrender their lives to Jesus Christ daily.. If this is all that is required, i guess im puzzeled why you wouldnt join us?

Edited to add:
Or do you not know what we do at Mass?

Peace!

 

[Heb 13:8]

First of all - Eph. 2:8-9 says absolutely NOTHING about confessing your sins.

That's because the author is referencing believers in Christ who have already confessed their sins.

Eph 2:1-3 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Correct. His Sheep mus DO - not just sit back and "believe" . . .

And if they sit back they don't lose salvation, they are sanctified and disciplined, Heb 12. The accusing spirit doesn't change the Gospel message no matter how many times you log on.

WHERE does Mark 16:16 or John 3:5 state this??
Can you show me??

John 3:5 is surrounded by verses regarding H2O:
- In John 1, we see the Baptism of Jesus. We see WATER (H2O) and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove.
- In John 2, we see the Wedding at Cana and His first miracle where He changes WATER (H2O) into wine.
- In John 3:3-5, we see Jesus telling Nicodemus that a man must be born again of WATER (H2O) and Spirit.
- In John 3, AFTER speaking to Nicodemus, we see Jesus and the Apostles BAPTIZING in WATER (H2O).

Well, let me ask you this first. Do you believe spiritual water is biblical?

Jhn 7:37-39 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Ummmm, NOT in the Beatitudes - OR in the Lesson of the Sheep and Goats.

Read again BOL. Notice HOW we become children of God, it is through belief.

Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

Jhn 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

The Demons are "believers" (James 2:19) but they don't have faith.

They don't have faith in what exactly?

There are MANY people who believe in God - but choose NOT to follow Him.

Yeah, it's called false belief. Honoring God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him, Luke 8:13. No root in apostates, not even those who own laptops.

NOT really sure why you keep pasting this definition - when it only serves to bolster MY position.

Because you take the word "works" out of context. You're using it to save yourself instead of believing on the finished work of the cross. It's His works that save us, not ours. The devil is forever trying to be God, wouldn't you say BOL?

Just as a married man works at his fidelity and faithfulness to his wife - so does the Christian WORK at his fidelity and faithfulness to Christ.
THIS is what Paul is talking about in Phil. 2:12 when he admonishes his readers to WORK OUT their salvation with "fear and trembling."

Work out, not work for.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I have Him more substantively than YOU do because I have Him spiritually AND physically in the Eucharist.

Wow, did your parents teach you that? It's time to grow up BOL.

Jesus DIED on the cross.
He didn't get buried and rise from the dead until AFTER He was taken down from the cross.

Yup, and believing in the resurrection is the hard part, wouldn't you say BOL?

Epignosis has a literal meaning

So does the word "maturity", but you don't see God sending believers to hell because of lack of maturity.

Go sell your disobedience and lack of faith somewhere else . . .

Oh my obedience and faith is just fine, I'm more concerned for you and where this doctrine is taking you.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

True Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works)

and you keep quoting James 2 as if it's speaking of losing salvation. Alzheimer's is tough.

As I have educated you MANY time now - True Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works)

I believe Alzheimer's does hit around 3 million cases per year.