Retrobyter Cannot Prove Partial Preterism Is Correct.

[teleiosis]

Please describe all the verses which show without any ambiguity in language, that Jesus used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Please describe all the verses which show without any ambiguity in language, that Jesus used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people.

ROFL! Getting a little specific in our topics, aren't we?

Aren't you forgetting something? Remember Yeshua`s words to Pilate?

John 18:33-37
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world (Greek: kosmos = "world-system"): if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
KJV

And, again, that is NOT what the Hebrew word gaaVar, spelled "gimmel-(with a dagesh)-qamets-vet-patach-resh," means!

All of the following words are in the same family:

OT:1396 gabar (gaw-bar'); a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently:
KJV - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

OT:1397 geber (gheh'-ber); from OT:1396; properly, a valiant man or warrior; generally, a person simply:
KJV - every one, man, mighty.

OT:1398 Geber (gheh'-ber); the same as OT:1397; Geber, the name of two Israelites:
KJV - Geber.

OT:1399 gebar (gheb-ar'); from OT:1396; the same as OT:1397; a person:
KJV - man.

OT:1400 gebar (Aramaic) (gheb-ar'); corresponding to OT:1399:
KJV - certain, man.

OT:1401 gibbar (Aramaic) (ghib-bawr'); intensive of OT:1400; valiant, or warrior:
KJV - mighty.

OT:1402 Gibbar (ghib-bawr'); intensive of OT:1399; Gibbar, an Israelite: -Gibbar.

OT:1403 Gabriy'el (gab-ree-ale'); from OT:1397 and OT:410; man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:
KJV - Gabriel.

OT:1404 gebereth (gheb-eh'-reth); feminine of OT:1376; mistress:
KJV - lady, mistress.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word in question is the first in this list, OT:1396. Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldee Languages uses a slightly different transliteration scheme than I usually do, which is fine. He is consistent. However, I like to adhere (as much as is humanly possible) to a transliteration scheme that gives a person the ability to sound out the word. For instance, in the BeGeD KeFeT (a mnemonic device that describes the letters that can take a dagesh - a dot in the middle of the letter), he chooses to double the letter if the dagesh is present and leave it a single letter if the dagesh is absent. I choose to change the letter to its associated sound. In the vet (the undotted bet, the bet without a dagesh), Strong's makes it a single "b." However, his transliteration of the bet is a "bb" because of the dagesh. In my transliteration scheme, I make the bet a single "b," but the vet I write as a capitalized "V" (to distinguish it from the "v" representing the vav) because those are the sounds they make. He will sometimes use a letter with an "h" following to distinguish with from without the dagesh, as in "th" for "thav" or "ph" for "phei" or "kh" for "khaph." I prefer to use "t" for "tav", "f" for "fei", and "kh for "khaf." For the gimmel and the dalet and the tav in modern Hebrew, there are no recognizable differences in sound between the letters with the dagesh and without the dagesh. So, for those I might double the letter if it has a dagesh or I might ignore the dagesh.

All this amounts to this: "dabar" to Strong's = "daaVar" to me. In either case, the word simply means "to be strong" if intransitive/reflexive or "to make strong" if transitive. Only if such is implied in the context does the word mean "to prevail" (meaning "to beat" someone in a contest or "to win" a contest) or "to act insolently." As one can see from the other words in the family, the word means "to be strong" in the sense of "to be valiant" or "to be a warrior."

Now, in Dani'el 9:27, we have to ask ourselves what Gavri'el meant when he said to Dani'el,...

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

The Hebrew of this verse is this:

27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaaVuwa` echaad vachatsiy hashaaVuwa` yashbiyt zebach uwminchaah v`al knaf shiquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad kaalaah vnecheraatsaah titakh `al shomeem:
PC Study Bible Interlinear

The word here is "Vhigbiyr" meaning "and-he-shall-make-strong." The next word, "briyt" is the word meaning "a-covenant" and is the direct object of the sentence. Thus, the words mean "and he shall make a covenant strong."

So, what does it mean to "make a covenant strong?" Well, typically it means...
"to ratify a covenant," or
"to confirm a covenant," or
"to affirm a covenant," or
"to attest to a covenant," or
"to substantiate a covenant," or
"to authenticate a covenant," or
"to validate a covenant," or
"to certify a covenant," or
"to verify a covenant," or
"to corroborate a covenant," or
"to bear out a covenant," or
"to support a covenant," or
"to uphold a covenant," or
"to sustain a covenant," or
"to fortify a covenant," or
"to strengthen a covenant," or
"to document a covenant," or
"to probate a covenant," or
"to prove a covenant."

The covenant is already there, and it is being "RATIFIED" or "SUSTAINED" or "FORTIFIED" or "STRENGTHENED" or "UPHELD!"

This was done first by Yeshua` performing all righteousness as instructed to do by His Father, such as submitting to being baptized, and by His Father supporting Him by His endorsement: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased!"

As far as the "seven years," that is declared in the prophecy; however, it could be said to be patterned after His father David:

2 Samuel 2:11
11 And the time that David was king in Hebron over the house of Judah was seven years and six months.
KJV

2 Samuel 5:5
5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.
KJV

1 Kings 2:11
11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.
KJV

So, He too should have reigned over Y'hudah (Judah) for seven years as did David. (I've known people on this forum to argue for fewer verses for more numbers!)

Solomon, too, had a seven-year period at the beginning of his reign:

1 Kings 6:37-38
37 In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the Lord laid, in the month Zif:
38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.
KJV

Indeed, building the Temple could very easily be related to Yeshua`s body:

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
KJV

However, there may yet be another way this is applicable, but it will have to wait until later today.

 

[teleiosis]

You list to prevail for gabar in the beginning, which the Wordbook of the Old Testament says is what gabar means when used as a verb, and then conveniently re-define it along all the synonyms for "confirm" - (which is a lousy translation provided by guys who worked by candlelight 400 years ago) - trying to make the word into something postitive when it is not when used in opposition to God - which is what setting up the abomination of an idol - the talking image of the anti-Christ - in the Holy Place: in the Temple and in front of the Curtain - is: it's in opposition to God.

Using Daniel 9:27 to prove Jesus is the "he" of Daniel 9:27 - is a circular argument.

Other coincidences of seven years, which do not establish limited-time covenants, do not prove that Jesus used (military) might to force or prevail a limited-time covenant with many!

You have failed to answer the original post.

(What's even funnier is when you ask Preterists to identify the midpoint abomination... and then try to have them reconcile that with the start of the one 'seven' in the light that Daniel 9:26. He-he-hee!)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis, my brother.

You list to prevail for gabar in the beginning, which the Wordbook of the Old Testament says is what gabar means when used as a verb, and then conveniently re-define it along all the synonyms for "confirm" - (which is a lousy translation provided by guys who worked by candlelight 400 years ago) - trying to make the word into something postitive when it is not when used in opposition to God - which is what setting up the abomination of an idol - the talking image of the anti-Christ - in the Holy Place: in the Temple and in front of the Curtain - is: it's in opposition to God.

Well, that's not quite what I did. I used Roget's International Thesaurus and looked up "ratify" as in "to STRENGTHEN a document such as an agreement or a covenant." I found two different paths that could be synonyms: 504.12 and 520.12.

The first, 504.12, falls under the category of "504. EVIDENCE, PROOF." The second, 520.12, is under "520. ASSENT." Section 504.12 included the word "strengthen" and is mostly concerned with various ways that evidence, such as an agreement or a covenant, is strengthened; section 520.12 is more about "endorsement" of a document, "assent" or saying "yes" to a document. Both categories include the word "confirm," but that is NOT where I started. Of the two, the closer synonym to gaaVar would be the 504.12 synonyms, and although it does include the synonym of "confirm," the stronger synonyms of "substantiate, authenticate, validate, certify, ratify, corroborate, FORTIFY, STRENGTHEN, or PROVE" are better. And, of all these synonyms, the closest English synonym to the Hebrew word gaaVar when used for a covenant would be "FORTIFY."

Wordbook of the Old Testament, if that is your sole source on the word, has somehow given you the wrong impression of the word. With the vowel pointing of qamets-patach (the paa`al pattern), it IS a verb! It may be used to form participles and nouns, but with this vowel pointing, it is fundamentally a verb. And, the PRIMARY concept of this verb is "to be (or make) strong."

The definition of "prevail," according to the Random House Webster's College Dictionary (Random House, New York, 1997), is...

v.t. (transitive verb)
1. to be widespread or current; exist generally.
2. to appear or occur as the most important or frequent feature or element; predominate.
3. to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence (usually followed by over): to prevail over one's enemies.
4. to succeed; become dominant; win out.
5. to use persuasion or inducement successfully (usually followed by on or upon): Can you prevail on him to go?
[1350-1400; Middle English < Latin praevale're = prae PRE- + vale're to be strong; cf. PREVALENT]

Using Daniel 9:27 to prove Jesus is the "he" of Daniel 9:27 - is a circular argument.

Oh, not at all. The "he" of Daniel 9:27 points to the "Messiah" of Daniel 9:26 which in turn points to Yeshua` the Messiah! That's not circular at all!

Other coincidences of seven years, which do not establish limited-time covenants, do not prove that Jesus used (military) might to force or prevail a limited-time covenant with many!

You have failed to answer the original post.

(What's even funnier is when you ask Preterists to identify the midpoint abomination... and then try to have them reconcile that with the start of the one 'seven' in the light that Daniel 9:26. He-he-hee!)

First, Yeshua did not USE "(military) might," as I've pointed out in my previous post, but also the verse does not REQUIRE that he use "(military) might!" That's something YOU'VE inserted into your definition for the word being discussed here, all bound up in your limited understand of what it means "to prevail." You're off in left field somewhere chasing rabbits or butterflies or something!

Second, I KNEW that I had not yet answered the original post! That's why I said, "it will have to wait until later today!" You just "jumped the gun."

Third, you aren't talking to a Preterist; you're talking to a PARTIAL preterist! There's a HUGE difference! Whether they have a problem with the "midpoint abomination" or the "start of the one seven" is irrelevant; I don't.

First, the one seven started with Yeshua`s baptism and His Father's acknowledgement: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
Second, the "overspreading of abominations" or the "spread-out wing of abominations" were the rejections, blasphemies, insults, inuendos, and general ill will that the elders of Y'hudah (who were SUPPOSED to be the ones who should have crowned Him) had toward GOD'S Messiah to be King, culminating in the CRUCIFIXION!
Third, Yeshua` was the one who left them "DESOLATE" (which is the midpoint of the seven), and...
Fourth, the tribulation (Greek: "thlipsis" = "pressure") or distress, primarily on the Jews, began at that point.
Fifth, when Yeshua` was crucified, that was their ultimate rejection of the Messiah.

After His resurrection and His ascension, they remain under the desolation and that resultant tribulation promised in Dani'el 9:27 until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," welcoming Yeshua` back as YHWH'S Messiah. From that point, they were given 40 years to repent (which they WOULD not do), and so, the Times of the Goyim (Gentiles) began in earnest in 68-70 A.D. With the destruction of the Temple, the offensiveness (abomination) stemming from the desolation, predicted by Yeshua` in the Olivet Discourse, came true. During the last almost 2000 years, the actual time of tribulation has been shortened as God has broken up their punishment so as not to overwhelm them completely. As Yeshua` is in the process of returning to earth, the latter half of the seventieth seven will continue, as described in Revelation as the "time, times and half a time," "forty-two months," and "1,260 days." When Yeshua` returns, He will rescue Isra'el from their surrounding enemies, cut off the Gentiles from Yerushalayim, and the Times of the Goyim, when they overran and trampled the streets of Yerushalayim, will be over.

I will get to your request for verses next.

 

[teleiosis]

310נכד (gābar) prevail, be mighty, have strength, be great. (ASV and RSV similar.)

Derivatives
310a (geber) man.
310b (gibbôr) mighty man.
310c (g[sup]e [/sup]bûrâ) might.
310d (g[sup]e[/sup] bîrâ) lady, queen (masc. lord, Gen 27:29, 37).
310e (g[sup]e[/sup] beret) lady, queen.

This root and its derivatives occur 328 times in the OT, of which the verb account for but 26. The cognate is well attested in the semitic languages, appearing in Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Phoenician, and Moabite. At present, it is only known in a proper noun in Ugaritic. In general the same meaning is shared throughout. In Arabic, the basic meaning of the root is “to rise, raise, restore,” with the idea of being strong, or prevailing over coming only in the only in the derived stems. That the Hebrew may share a similar range of meaning is seen in the Hithpael where the idea is not so much to make oneself prevail over God, as it is to raise oneself up in arrogance and stand in his face (Job 15:25; 36:9; Isa 42:13). The Hebrew root is commonly associated with warfare and has to do with the strength and vitality of the successful warrior.

In the first analysis, might and mighty men were causes for celebration in the OT. During much of the biblical period Israel was in a heroic age. Thus the feats and exploits of her champions we causes for delight and storytelling. Such an exploit was that of David’s three mighty men as they broke through the Philistine lines to bring him water from Bethlehem (I Chr 11:15-19). I Samuel 1 is a lament for the fallen heroes, Saul and Jonathan, extolling their valiant deeds. Similarly II Sam 23 records the glories of various mighty men. I and II Chronicles contain many references to the mighty men of Israel, commonly employing the phrase gibbôr hayil “mighty men of valor” to describe them. Although Chr generally uses the term to express “warrior” or “soldier,” there are indications that originally this was a technical term for men of a certain social class, “nobles” who had the privilege of bearing arms for the king (cf. Ruth 2:1; I Sam 9:1; II Kgs 15:20, etc. where “warrior” is too narrow a translation.

It is not surprising that in such a society God was often depicted as a warrior. God is the true prototype of the mighty man, and if an earthly warrior’s deeds are recounted, how much more should God’s be. Thus the psalmists recount God’s mighty acts (106:8; 145:4, 11, 12; etc.) and in various places those attributes which a warrior-king might be expected to possess ―wisdom, might, counsel and understanding― are attributed par excellence to God (Job 12:13; Prov 8:14). Isaiah (9:6; cf. 10:21) indicates that these will be the attributes of the Coming King, whose name is the Mighty God as well as the Prince of Peace, but he also makes it plain that justice and righteousness will accompany his might (cf. Ps 89: 13-14 [H 14-15]).

God’s might draws the limits to man’s might, for man’s prowess is to be gloried in just so long as it does not overstep itself. When man sees his might as all he needs for successful living, he is deluded (Ps 33:16; 90:10; Eccl 9:11). When he, in the arrogance of his strength, pits himself against the Warrior-God, he will be destroyed (Ps 52; Jer 9:22; 46:5; etc.). Rather might must be tempered with wisdom (I Sam 2:9; Prov 16:32; 21:22) and the greatest wisdom of all is to trust God. Thus it is said that he is geber (a male at the height of his powers) who trust God (Ps 40:4 [H 5]). The man possessed of might who yet distrusts his own powers and instead trusts those of God is most truly entitled to the appellation “man” (Job 38:3; jer 17:7; Mic 3:8). This is the “new man” of Paul, for he will have discovered that although transgressions have prevailed over him (Ps 65:3 [H 4]), the Lord’s mercy will prevail over them (Ps 103:11) and that the Lord is indeed “might to save” (Ps 80:3).


geber. Man. As distinct from such more general words for man as ’ādām, ’ish, ’enosh, etc., this word specifically relates to a male at the height of his powers. As such it depicts humanity as its most competent and capable level. Sixty-six occurrences.

gibbor. Mighty, strong, valiant, mighty man. (RSV often translates “warrior.”) The heroes of champions among the armed forces. Occurs 16 times.

g[sup]e[/sup]bûrá. Might. Refers especially to royal power. As such it is commonly ascribed to God. Sixty-three occurrences.

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament edited by R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke; © 1980, Moody Press, p 148/9, author: John N. Oswalt, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.

 

[Hitch]

Please describe all the verses which show without any ambiguity in language, that Jesus used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people.

Please describe all the verses which show without any ambiguity that ,,,your request is relevant.

 

[tgwprophet]

yolh woc eht yaw sordw teg danglet i nac yarelb eakm tuo thaw si gienb dais.
gnderstandinu can be xomplec and hard to histinguisd.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, terry.

yolh woc eht yaw sordw teg danglet i nac yarelb eakm tuo thaw si gienb dais.
gnderstandinu can be xomplec and hard to histinguisd.

First of all, there is no such thing as a "yolh woc," even in India. Second, I'm not trying to "danglet sordw." I'm trying to "entanglu mhet!"

Yes, understanding can be complex and hard to distinguish, but I'm attempting to make things simple, as simple as they can be for those who are novices to the Greek and Hebrew languages.

 

[teleiosis]

Holy cow the way words get tangled I can barely make out what is being said.
Understanding can be complex and hard to distinguish.

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aculalty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Amzanig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Please describe all the verses which show without any ambiguity in language, that Jesus used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people.

ALL the verses? That might be asking for a HUGE undertaking, but I'll start with SOME of the verses, how's that? You also ask for those verses that show no ambiguity in language. I don't even know if that is humanly possible! Consider: If I give you a verse that is clearly supportive of my position to me, would you see it as "clearly supportive" as I do? We can't even agree on Dani'el 9:27! I'll give you the verses that I consider clearly supportive to me, and I'll even give you reasons for WHY I believe them to support my position, but unfortunately, the old adage will come into play: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Again, let me reiterate that these verses do NOT support "that Jesus used military might to force, prevail or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people." My verses support that Yeshua` ratified the covenant that was HIS to ratify in obeying YHWH, His Father, and hearing His Father's approval and endorsement:

2 Samuel 7:8-17
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

2 Samuel 2:1-4
1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the Lord, saying, Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah? And the Lord said unto him, Go up. And David said, Whither shall I go up? And he said, Unto Hebron.
2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite.
3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron.
4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, That the men of Jabesh-gilead were they that buried Saul.
KJV

2 Samuel 5:1-5
1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh.
2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the Lord said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel.
3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the Lord: and they anointed David king over Israel.
4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years.
5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.
KJV

1 Chronicles 11:1-3
1 Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh.
2 And moreover in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the Lord thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel.
3 Therefore came all the elders of Israel to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the Lord; and they anointed David king over Israel, according to the word of the Lord by Samuel.
KJV

2 Chronicles 13:5
5 Ought ye not to know that the Lord God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?
KJV

2 Chronicles 21:5-7
5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord.
7 Howbeit the Lord would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever.
KJV

2 Chronicles 23:1-3
1 And in the seventh year Jehoiada strengthened himself, and took the captains of hundreds, Azariah the son of Jeroham, and Ishmael the son of Jehohanan, and Azariah the son of Obed, and Maaseiah the son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat the son of Zichri, into covenant with him.
2 And they went about in Judah, and gathered the Levites out of all the cities of Judah, and the chief of the fathers of Israel, and they came to Jerusalem.
3 And all the congregation made a covenant with the king in the house of God. And he said unto them, Behold, the king's son shall reign, as the Lord hath said of the sons of David.
KJV

Psalm 89:1-52
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen.
KJV

Isaiah 55:1-3
55 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
KJV

Jeremiah 33:19-22
19 And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
KJV

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

Hosea 11:1
11 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
KJV

Now, compare these to the New Testament verses:

Matthew 2:13-15
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
KJV

Matthew 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Mark 1:9-11
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Luke 3:21-22
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
KJV

Matthew 15:21-22
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
KJV

Hebrews 1:1-9
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV

And, there are MANY more that relate the Anointed to the Son, and that to the Son of David, and that to the Davidic Covenant and the kingship He deserves.

 

[teleiosis]

ALL the verses? That might be asking for a HUGE undertaking, but I'll start with SOME of the verses, how's that?

Again, let me reiterate that these verses do NOT support "that Jesus used military might to force, prevail or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people." My verses support that Yeshua` ratified the covenant that was HIS to ratify in obeying YHWH, His Father, and hearing His Father's approval and endorsement:

And, there are MANY more that relate the Anointed to the Son, and that to the Son of David, and that to the Davidic Covenant and the kingship He deserves.

There is no question that Jesus fulfilled the Father's Will.
There is no question that Jesus made a Covenant with His shed Blood.
There is no question that Jesus laid His Life down for a ransom for many.
There is no question that Jesus had the power to take His Life back up.
There is no question that Jesus is the Messiah King.

Dan 9:27 does not say "ratify." It says gabar. gabar does not mean to ratify.
As a verb, it means to prevail. See Isa 42:13. "he shall prevail against his enemies."
As an adjective, it means to be strong or mighty.
gabar carries with it, strong military overtones.
gabar can be negative when it is used of someone in opposition to God.

Job 15:25 because he shakes his fist at God and vaunts himself against the Almighty,
Job 36:9 he tells them what they have done— that they have sinned arrogantly.
__________________________________

And speaking of covenants - how is it that this is the only this verse and no other says, according to you, that Jesus prevailed a limited-time covenant?
Are you really trying to tell me that Jesus had a limited time offer for salvation?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

There is no question that Jesus fulfilled the Father's Will.
There is no question that Jesus made a Covenant with His shed Blood.
There is no question that Jesus laid His Life down for a ransom for many.
There is no question that Jesus had the power to take His Life back up.
There is no question that Jesus is the Messiah King.

Dan 9:27 does not say "ratify." It says gabar. gabar does not mean to ratify.
As a verb, it means to prevail. See Isa 42:13. "he shall prevail against his enemies."
As an adjective, it means to be strong or mighty.
gabar carries with it, strong military overtones.
gabar can be negative when it is used of someone in opposition to God.

Job 15:25 because he shakes his fist at God and vaunts himself against the Almighty,
Job 36:9 he tells them what they have done— that they have sinned arrogantly.
__________________________________

And speaking of covenants - how is it that this is the only this verse and no other says, according to you, that Jesus prevailed a limited-time covenant?
Are you really trying to tell me that Jesus had a limited time offer for salvation?

LOL! Please, take the time to define "prevail." Look it up! I'll wait. Then, please use it in a sentence.

 

[teleiosis]

Prevail does not mean to confirm, and confirm carries a completely different connotation with its main definition than gabar.

Now if you want to say Jesus "prevailed" over sin by laying His Life down for us in complete and total surrender, having to undergo physical torture and utter humilation at being hung naked on a cross with nails that are more like spikes - you can.

However, you go against how gabar is defined and how it is used in the Bible.

You cannot give any Scripture outside of Dan 9:27 to say Jesus used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Prevail does not mean to confirm, and confirm carries a completely different connotation with its main definition than gabar.

Now if you want to say Jesus "prevailed" over sin by laying His Life down for us in complete and total surrender, having to undergo physical torture and utter humilation at being hung naked on a cross with nails that are more like spikes - you can.

However, you go against how gabar is defined and how it is used in the Bible.

You cannot give any Scripture outside of Dan 9:27 to say Jesus used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people.

I didn't ask you to tell me what it is not; I asked you to define what it IS! Tell me what you think its definition is and use it in a sentence! If you can't follow simple directions, it's no WONDER that you are getting things wrong! I don't NEED to say that "Yeshua` used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven-year agreement" because that's NOT WHAT I BELIEVE!!!

Now, try again! Definition and sentence!

 

[teleiosis]

The challenge is to you Retro.

You're the one who can't provide any verse (outside of Dan 9:27) that says Jesus prevailed by military might ANY Covenant.

You're the one who can't provide any verse (outside of Dan 9:27) that says Jesus prevailed a limited time Covenant of only 7 (prophetic) years.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

The challenge is to you Retro.

You're the one who can't provide any verse (outside of Dan 9:27) that says Jesus prevailed by military might ANY Covenant.

You're the one who can't provide any verse (outside of Dan 9:27) that says Jesus prevailed a limited time Covenant of only 7 (prophetic) years.

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!!! THERE IS NO CHALLENGE!!! Water off a duck's back, man. I have no intension of providing ANY verse, inside or outside of Dani'el 9:27, that says that Yeshua` "prevailed by military might ANY Covenant!" IT'S NOT NECESSARY! I don't believe it, and you can't prove that it's what the word means anyway! Only in your way of thinking is it what the word means at all. You STILL refuse to give me a sentence in which you use the word "prevail," and do you know why? It's because YOU DON'T KNOW HOW to use the word properly!!! You have flubbed it every time you've attempted to use it! Even in the statement you made above, that's not how to use the word! JUST USE WHATEVER SENSE YOU WERE BORN WITH AND LOOK UP THE WORD!!! You DO have a dictionary, don't you?

Oh, and by the way, there's no such thing as a "prophetic year!" That's a ROYAL piece of nonsense! A 360-day year indeed. Humph! With a calendar like that, you'll be throwing snowballs in July in no time! (Hmmm... about 35 years, I'd say.)

 

[teleiosis]

You're the one who says Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one 'seven.'

Yet you want to throw down petty challenges that have nothing to do with proof for your Preterist leanings on Dan 9:27.
You have no intention of trying to provide any evidence outside of Dan 9:27 for your position because you can't find a shred of it.

- And you can't figure out that a times, a time and half a time is the same as 1260 days and then you have the audacity to try and label me with lunacy?
Really now...

You cannot prove Partial Preterism is correct on this one very basic, theological point.
You're wrong and you don't like it when I hold you accountable.
So now I have earned an enemy because your feelings are hurt.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Please describe all the verses which show without any ambiguity in language, that Jesus used military might to force, prevail, or confirm a limited time, seven year agreement with many people.

Hi teleiosis,

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are no scriptures to describe what happened but it is recorded in history. The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 AD (still in the disciples generation) was the decisive event of the War of the Jews that Josephes, a Jewish historian, wrote about while he lived through it.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud//josephus/index.htm

 

[teleiosis]

AD 70 fulfilled the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in v 26.

This in turn points to the source for the prince that shall come.

This person then forces a covenant for the one 'seven.'

After being in power for 42 months and waging war on the Saints, the false prophet erects a talking image to the invading King of the North who arrives very quickly (on wing, like a flood) to surround Jerusalem.

That hasn't happened yet, but it will.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

You're the one who says Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one 'seven.'

Yet you want to throw down petty challenges that have nothing to do with proof for your Preterist leanings on Dan 9:27.
You have no intention of trying to provide any evidence outside of Dan 9:27 for your position because you can't find a shred of it.

- And you can't figure out that a times, a time and half a time is the same as 1260 days and then you have the audacity to try and label me with lunacy?
Really now...

You cannot prove Partial Preterism is correct on this one very basic, theological point.
You're wrong and you don't like it when I hold you accountable.
So now I have earned an enemy because your feelings are hurt.

I have no intention of trying to provide any evidence outside of Dani'el 9:27 because there is NO NEED! First, I don't believe in a 7-year tribulation or even a 3.5-year tribulation. Therefore, why would I bother trying to prove or disprove such a monstrosity? I don't find it in Scripture; so, I don't believe it!

Second, I'll say this again ... slowly for you to grasp ... 1,260 days is NOT the same as three and a half "prophetic years." That is simple(ton) nonsense. There is NO SUCH THING as a 360-day year! PERIOD! Only in a Julian calendar would such a concept be seen, and even then one must throw out the 5.2422 days as an accumulation of holidays within the year or something!

The time periods in Revelation are three different amounts of time. That's why they are said in three different ways! They are NOT equivalent!

Finally, I may be exasperated by your persistent resistance to clear information, but I'll NEVER be your enemy, and you've not hurt my feelings a bit. I may not always have the time to get right back to you, but I'll ALWAYS remain a loyal brother to you! Even when we don't agree, I have no reason to doubt your sonship to God or your brotherhood.