Rev. 16:15

[Trekson]

This verse hasn’t made sense to me for a long time. It just seemed out of place. It’s placement in the book of Rev. seemed illogical because I always assumed it was speaking of the rapture. I was discussing this with a post-tribber but it really doesn’t fit in with the post-trib scenario either. So, I’ve been pondering and praying for understanding for quite a while and here is what I’ve learned. I think the problem lies in the verses we normally associate with it.

I have a KJV study bible with many editorial comments. I keep forgetting that these comments are based upon the presumptions of their (the editors) beliefs. The editors are pre-trib and their comments reflect that belief and thus their relating scriptures may not always be the best, but are assumed because of their pre-disposition to pre-trib theology. I’ve seen this in other translations as well on other topics. The identity of the church as the bride is one that comes to mind.
With all that said, let’s take a closer look at the verse in question: Rev. 16:15 - “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

The “relating” verses in my study bible are Matt. 24:43 and 2 Co. 5:3.
Matt.24:43 & Luke 12:39
- “But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.”
2 Cor. 5:1-4
- “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life
."
I added vss. 1,2,4 for the sake of context. The word “naked” (according to the editors) in this verse implies, “without a body”. That didn’t make a lot of sense to me either?!

I put in bold (back to Rev. 16:15) and underlined the important parts of our study. If we were to look at this verse literally and as it seems upon reading it, woe to the person who is showering or in a state of undress at the rapture. They would become the “laughingstock” of heaven. I’m sure in decades past many a sermon was preached on the dangers of sleeping in the nude based on this verse. However, a deeper look into this verse shows that a very different concept is in mind. Here are some other verses commonly associated with this theme.
1 Thess. 5:2-6
- “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
2 Pet. 3:10
- “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Rev. 3:3
- “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

The first two say that “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night. Now we know that the day of the Lord is a multi-themed event spanning over a millennia, so these three verses as well as Matt. 24:43 seem to be speaking of the sudden, unannounced arrival of these events. I don’t believe any of these tie into Rev. 16:15. If you remember, prior to this verse the two witnesses were making God’s forthcoming judgments known to the world (Rev. 11:3-12) and we had the three angels announcing to the world the same, (Rev. 14:6-9). With these facts in mind, His “coming as a thief” as normally understood, seems unlikely. While the world may not believe or heed the warnings they won’t be able to claim unawareness or ignorance.

We also need to decide who is Christ speaking to. There are three possibilities:
1. The church
2. Believing Israel in hiding, or
3. The unbelieving world.

I readily admit that I’m studying this with my own pre-disposition towards a pre-wrath rapture and will use scriptures that seem to support my understanding, however, I hope that this study will at least have most of you re-examining how you have previously interpreted the scripture.

Within the context of Rev. 16:15, just prior to this verse we have the three frogs going out to the three kings (kings of the east, north and south: the a/c is already there.) to call them to the “great battle”. The very next verse affirms that they are gathered to Armageddon.

Seeing as I believe the church to already be in heaven at this time, I believe this verse is speaking to the remaining two parties. “Behold I come as a thief,” is spoken to the world and the second part, I believe, is spoken to believing Israel in hiding. I think the best concept that the word “thief” implies is with the context of John 10:10 - “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
Christ is coming to Armageddon to reclaim (steal back) His throne, to kill and destroy His enemies (those who persecuted His church during the great trib.) and the enemies of Israel.

The second part of John 10:10 is the promise to those who heed the second part of Rev. 16:15 - …”Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. They will have an abundant life if they “watcheth and keepeth” their garments. This abundant life is depicted in many of the OT prophecies about the millennium. What garments are these?
Again, we have three choices:
1. Normal every day garments.
2. Wedding garments.
3. Garments of righteousness.

Here are a few verses that may shed light on this subject:
Rev. 3:4
- “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.”
Rev. 3:18
- “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.”
Matt. 22:11-12
- “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.”

According to Strong’s, the words “watcheth and keepeth” combined have two possible meanings: The first is to “keep awake and guard from loss”. This one is probably the most considered, however, I think the second meanings are more appropriate to this verse: “To be vigilant and take note of prophecy.” The bible doesn’t tell us what believing Israel is doing for the 1260 days they are in their place of safety but I believe that they are being instructed by the 144,000 on the ways of salvation, the OT prophecies and their fulfillments regarding the Messiah, the NT and their prophecies, (taking note of prophecy) to give them an understanding of what’s going on in the outside world.

I believe the garments also apply to “believing Israel” who I believe is depicted in Rev. 19:8 - “Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) (NIV) This verse implies they are given their garments because of their righteous acts while the church has their garments washed in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:14 - “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

I believe the latter part of this verse: “he walk naked, and they see his shame “ also has a different not so apparent meaning. The Strong’s definition is simply: “he walk nude and they see his indecency”. There must be a different meaning behind this phrase. Here’s my opinion. According to Rev. 19:8, their garments are the result of their righteous acts. Rev. 3:18 above can imply that without acts of righteousness they will have no garments (clothing).

As I believe the 144,000 to be the bride of Christ; Matt. 22:11-12, also listed above, can take on a deeper meaning because these garments of righteous acts also double as wedding garments when they are described as the “wife” of the Lamb. Rev. 19:7 - “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.”

Only Israel has ever been referred to as the wife of God. The book of Hosea (with his unfaithful wife) outlines the history of God’s relationship to Israel and their future restoration of fellowship. There are several other “word” pictures that depict Israel as an unfaithful “wife” in the OT. It can also be implied that the description given to John in
Rev. 19:10
- “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

This identifies the church (that have the testimony of Jesus, see also Rev. 12:17) as someone other than the woman of vss. 7-8. So, to sum it all up, this is my opinion of what Rev. 16:15 is saying:

The time of my vengeance has come (Lk 21:22 & 2 Thes. 1:8-10) Behold! I come to reclaim my crown and to kill and destroy the enemies of my church and of Israel. Be vigilant, take heed of the prophecies lest you are judged unfit to wear the wedding garments of righteousness and be seen walking unprepared as if naked and ashamed.

 

[veteran]

You are way... overthinking it. It's not that difficult why our Lord Jesus would put that warning there on the 6th Vial timing for His Church.


Rev 3:3-5
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
(KJV)

Rev 3:18-19
18 I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(KJV)


Christ's command for us to 'watch' is the same matter as Paul's in 1 Thess.5. It's in regard to the coming tribulation time.

Fact of the matter is, the 6th Vial timing is STILL tribulation timing, which is WHY our Lord Jesus is still telling us to be on guard at that point.

But in comes MEN'S DOCTRINES, telling you that you aren't gonna' be here when the Vials are poured out! So WHO have you listened to if you believe that? To MEN, and not to our Lord Jesus' warning.

Would it really hurt that much to simply disregard what those MEN are teaching on that, and instead listen directly to Christ there about it? I mean, what would it mean you'd have to give up, going to that Church, are getting into conversations about the Pre-Wrath position, etc.? How much is their worth to you in contrast to the worth of what our Lord Jesus said?

 

[Trekson]

Veteran, I believe that I am listening to what Christ and the Holy Spirit has shown me. Here's the way I look at it. Pre-wrath has a lot more in common with post-tribbers (which I'm assuming you are) than we do with pre-tribbers. I'm a prepper and I fully expect to be here for the majority of the 70th week and I actually expect the likelihood of martyrdom to be a realistic one. However, I do believe in a seventh seal rapture, but I don't believe it is imminent or secret. Look at it this way, are you really going to stand before Christ and complain if His timing is different from yours and you're "saved" from experiencing His wrath. I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't complain if the highly doubtful pre-trib rapture occured. I'd fall on my knees and thank God for sparing my family and I the hardships that are surely coming. If you're right and His return is post-trib, oh well what's a couple more years in the scheme of things. If I'm still alive and He has protected me thus far than I'm sure He will keep on doing so.

Yes, I believe in watching and the expectation of Luke 21:25-28 - "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (the sixth seal)
[sup]26 [/sup]Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Rev. 6:17)
[sup]27 [/sup]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (at the 7th seal)
[sup]28 [/sup]And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Notice vs. 28 says when they "begin" to come to pass, NOT when everything is all over. (words in parenthesis mine)

Also, FYI the pre-wrath timeline puts the vials after the 70th week, the 1260-1290 days of Dan.12:11, then comes Armageddon and than 1290-1335 days will be the sheep and goat judgment and the wedding. IMHO.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Just in case you didnt know .Armegeddon where the beast ,the false prophet and the kings are to have battle in in Israel.
Its not in Clili or China.
Maybe this will give you a hint as to where to find the beast.

Ps .Rev 16;15 is in a perfect location.
Like the scripture said.They will be tormented in the prsence of the Lamb.
Jesus has to be in Jerusalem to be present when those who worshiped the beast recieve thier punishment.


Revelation 14;10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16;
[sup]19 [/sup]And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I believe that I am listening to what Christ and the Holy Spirit has shown me. Here's the way I look at it. Pre-wrath has a lot more in common with post-tribbers (which I'm assuming you are) than we do with pre-tribbers. I'm a prepper and I fully expect to be here for the majority of the 70th week and I actually expect the likelihood of martyrdom to be a realistic one. However, I do believe in a seventh seal rapture, but I don't believe it is imminent or secret. Look at it this way, are you really going to stand before Christ and complain if His timing is different from yours and you're "saved" from experiencing His wrath. I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't complain if the highly doubtful pre-trib rapture occured. I'd fall on my knees and thank God for sparing my family and I the hardships that are surely coming. If you're right and His return is post-trib, oh well what's a couple more years in the scheme of things. If I'm still alive and He has protected me thus far than I'm sure He will keep on doing so.

None of the theological seminary positions means squat. They are just reasonings of men, and do not act as a replacement for God's Holy Writ. Yet, that's exactly what many have allowed them to do. Our Lord Jesus is still giving the same warning on the 6th Vial that He gave to the Churches in Asia, which is the same warnings His Apostles gave us about the end time events, which should be enough.

Yes, I believe in watching and the expectation of Luke 21:25-28 - "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (the sixth seal)
[sup]26 [/sup]Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Rev. 6:17)
[sup]27 [/sup]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (at the 7th seal)
[sup]28 [/sup]And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Notice vs. 28 says when they "begin" to come to pass, NOT when everything is all over. (words in parenthesis mine)

Thankfully, that 28th verse is not the sole example of those events Christ gave. So we shouldn't take that one verse off to a corner by itself to interpret it. It's still in the near future tense as other Scriptures confirm, the Rev.16:15 admonition being one of them.

Also, FYI the pre-wrath timeline puts the vials after the 70th week, the 1260-1290 days of Dan.12:11, then comes Armageddon and than 1290-1335 days will be the sheep and goat judgment and the wedding. IMHO.

Once again, you're trying to 'fit' the Scripture into a theological position, instead of allowing the Scripture to interpret Scripture. The events of the 6 Vials are all during tribulation timing, and it's easy to know that because of the type events mentioned on the 6th Vial, i.e., the beast, false prophet, and dragon, are still shown doing their thing on earth. Christ ends the tribulation with His coming on the 7th Vial, which is when the battle of Armageddon will happen.

 

[Trekson]

Veteran, As far as this topic is concerned we seem to have reached a stalemate. You see things one way, I see it another way. Only time will tell which is right. However, whomever is right isn't the point, imo, the point is the discussion and exchange of ideas in itself and the "friendly" fellowship that accompanies such discussions.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, As far as this topic is concerned we seem to have reached a stalemate. You see things one way, I see it another way. Only time will tell which is right. However, whomever is right isn't the point, imo, the point is the discussion and exchange of ideas in itself and the "friendly" fellowship that accompanies such discussions.

No problem, and I hope you keep watching.

 

[Guestman]

Why did God "sandwich" Revelation 16:15 concerning a person keeping awake and having his "outer garments" on between verse 14 that speaks of demons that goes "forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty" and verse 16 that names this battle as Armageddon ?

Very simply to impress the need to have on a true Christian's "outer garments" or that which identifies one as a true Christian, so that when the "war of the great day of God Almighty" erupts in the near future, or Armageddon, these will be shown as genuine Christians who has kept spiritually awake and watching world events unfold, tying these in with the prophecies of the Bible that are linked in a time pattern leading up to Armageddon.

What are the identifying marks of a true Christian that these will wearing as an "outer garment" for all to see when Armageddon arrives ?

(1) Those who practice it have genuine love among themselves.(John 13:34, 35; 1 John 4:8)

(2) All their beliefs are based on the Bible.(John 17:17; 2 Tim 3:16,17)

(3) They pray for God's name of Jehovah to be hallowed or sanctified. (Matt 6:9; Ps 83:18)

(4) They proclaim God's kingdom in all the earth, not some political or social philosophy.(Matt 24:14; Acts 28:23)

(5) They keep separate from the world's affairs, untainted by the world's politics or conflicts, remaining neutral in time of war.(James 1:27; John 17:14)

(6) They put God's kingdom and his righteousness first in their lives.(Matt 6:33)

(7) They cultivate the fruitage of God's spirit, not condoning war or personal violence.(Gal 5:22,23; Rom 12:17-21)

(8) They obey all human laws not contrary to God's law.(Rom 13:1-7)

(9) The true religion successfully unites people of every race, language, and tribe. It does not preach nationalism or hatred, but love worldwide.(Isaiah 2:2-4; Col 3:10,11)

(10) The true religion teaches the truth regarding God's purpose for man and the earth.(Matt 5:5; Ps 115:16; Isaiah 45:18)

 

[MTPockets]

Hi! 'Trekson'

Ummm, it seems to me that the key to your question can be found with Paul's statement: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body".
You might wish to pay particular attention to the verb tense of the verse; eg: "IS SOWN" & "IS RAISED" "THERE IS" & "THERE IS" (again) .

It is shameful that a body be naked; this applies to both the natural and spiritual existence of a person.
Adam and Eve became ashamed of the nakedness which had occurred with their SPIRITUAL body; the robes of their righteousness had been torn to shreds which caused them to be found naked in the unseen world. Their covering of their natural body was a visible shadow of what they had discovered about themselves spiritually.

If you were to assume this insight for yourself, you might be better equipped to answer the additional questions you posed.

 

[Risen Angel]

Throw away your study bible.

What is the point of this discussion? Oh yeah, the clothing thing. Here, I will give an excerpt of my journal. Raw, unedited and written upon waking. Hopefully no one will block this content. Try not to do anything too stupid with the information.

"I meet a girl who invites me over to her house; we grow closer together over time and eventually have sex: while I am still naked she begins to smile mischeviously. She has hidden my clothes; I find them and dress quickly. Soon after I am dressed a man enters the room; he is older. He is her husband or boyfriend; I am angry because she has deceived me intentionally. I explain that I am just visiting and project that we are merely friends, and I leave the house.

As I walk the street I begin to understand that we are opponents, her and I: we are called, chosen. The time arrives and black clothing is given each of us; we stand on opposing sides of a sea of water, each on a mountain. I am preparing for flight and rows of fireworks mark the gate from which I will launch myself.

{shift in sequence}

I stand on a mountain, dressed in white; I am here, about to [ ascend , descend ] in flight to carry the message of God: I spread my wings and launch myself from the mountain. The message is in two parts; I become both segments of the message: the first upon the mountain, the second upon the ground."

I've never released my journal.

Revelation was apparently written by someone who had a dream, so I give you this dream in response. But this is simply a piece taken out of context; I'm not about to post to the whole world. I find it interesting because the topic of clothing has absolutely taken over my day. First, the dream this morning. Second, church this evening speaking about the same verse someone referenced in this discussion. And Third, a new verse which this whole thread has been named after. Sometimes when God is trying to make a point he references the same thing over and over again until I have no choice but to PAY ATTENTION.

Look, I'll be quite honest: I don't have a clue about what you guys are talking about with all this theological debating. I live my life as one searching for and communicating with God; my entire life is dependent upon his spirit residing within me: I take that pretty seriously. I mean, you would too if you came to understand it.

So, why the clothing emphasis? What does it mean, and why are people so fascinated by it.... they search through the word and reference a lot of material, some discussion takes place but no one really understands it. And, with no apology, I don't really know if any of you really DO want to understand it. Sometimes I think the discussion about the topic becomes the goal rather than the revealing of the truth.

So, if you want an answer: go to God and ask him. He isn't some absent landlord living in a foreign country (I'm fairly sure at this point that someone who has read the word long enough will cry out - Vineyard! - Matthew 21:33). Don't stare into the abyss too long because it has a tendency of sucking people into it.

I thought the point of all this was JESUS.

I see an intellectualism creeping into the faith that disturbs me. Why haven't these questions already been answered for you? Why has no one offered a vision, a word, a thought that strikes to the heart?

Have any one of you considered that if you were meant to understand, then you would; because he would show you? God is very real and active; he is watching and listening. Do you think he has gone somewhere unreachable? And seriously, who cares about this tribulation nonsense? When did this obsessive train of thought ride the rail of doctrine into your mind?

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, to the Jew first, and also of the Gentile." (Romans 2:9)

How about that tribulation? Why not focus on something of value, rather than wasting your time.

"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope: and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Romans 5:3-6)

How about you guys stop worrying about what is coming and start considering what is happening right now, at this very moment, as you are reading these words.

 

[veteran]

Intellectualising? Focusing on the tribulation? If one was meant to understand? What gibberish is all that?
-----------
Translation:

don't use your brain when studying God's Word

don't focus on the events to come for the end of days which our Lord Jesus WARNED us to be watching and paying attention to.

not anyone here is meant by God to understand.

--------------

Risen Angel - that above is what your crazy rant is inferring, which is NOT an example of Christian Doctrine per God's Word nor my Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, you have NOT... been resurrected yet, so you are NOT... a 'risen angel'. By that example you have shown instead, that you are 'spiritually dead'.

 

[Risen Angel]

What has to happen for one to be resurrected?

I have lived, died, lived again, died again, lived, died... ad infinitum. I die daily.

Seriously though, I don't have anything to prove to you, but let me say this: everything I write comes at a cost. I expose myself. When was the last time you resurrected the dead? I don't mean with a machine, some electricity and some powerful drugs. I mean ask God and the person laying dead on the floor opens their eyes in a response to that prayer.

When was the last time you died, and then awoke?

Do you think I come to this forum with nothing of experience, just a simple book knowledge? In another thread you asked if I was immortal, and you seemed a little shocked. Why? Jesus came and offered eternal life. My spirit and his are entwined. When he did whatever it was that he did to me I changed and now I am eternal. Do you understand? It is a fairly simple concept and one that the entire faith is based on. My spirit is quite alive although I keep driving a sword through it every time I compromise with this world.

You want Christian doctrine? Here it is: I love you. I love you when you stumble around in the dark and bump into things you can't see; I love you when you fall down and cry out in pain; and, I love you when you lash out in anger. Why? Because my master commands me to, and I obey him.

Trust me, I don't get it right all the time. I have a fallen nature and I'm stuck in this body, for now.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Trekson.

Okay, so we've been down one path in this discussion. Allow me to back up and go down a completely different path.

This verse hasn’t made sense to me for a long time. It just seemed out of place. It’s placement in the book of Rev. seemed illogical because I always assumed it was speaking of the rapture. I was discussing this with a post-tribber but it really doesn’t fit in with the post-trib scenario either. So, I’ve been pondering and praying for understanding for quite a while and here is what I’ve learned. I think the problem lies in the verses we normally associate with it.

I have a KJV study bible with many editorial comments. I keep forgetting that these comments are based upon the presumptions of their (the editors) beliefs. The editors are pre-trib and their comments reflect that belief and thus their relating scriptures may not always be the best, but are assumed because of their pre-disposition to pre-trib theology. I’ve seen this in other translations as well on other topics. The identity of the church as the bride is one that comes to mind.
With all that said, let’s take a closer look at the verse in question: Rev. 16:15 - “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

It is important to understand this verse in its context more than trying to understand its placement as a topic. A study help, such as your study Bible, are MEN'S WORDS that try to gain some sense in HUMAN ways of understanding. ALWAYS take what is written in a study help with a grain of salt! Even when other verse locations are given, the connection the current passage has to those other passages of Scripture is suspect! They are the verses that THE AUTHORS OF THE STUDY HELP BELIEVE are connected in some way to the current passage under scrutiny. They may be connected; they may NOT be connected! Only the contexts will tell. Most study helps make such connections based on similar words and phrases found within the verses, but that is a dangerous assumption for a number of reasons:

First, English similarities may NOT reflect Hebrew or Greek similarities in a one-to-one relationship. That is, there is not exactly one Hebrew word that was translated to exactly one English word in all cases, and there is not exactly one Greek word that was translated to exactly one English word in all cases. One MIGHT get "lucky" and find he is looking at passages that were more or less one-to-one with the Hebrew or Greek, but more often than not, the apparent connection might just be a fluke based on the translation choices of the translators. No translation is strictly one-to-one. There are too many synonyms and antonyms in both Hebrew and English or Greek and English through which one may translate a passage. Look up almost any Greek word in Strong's Dictionary of the Greek Language, and look at the various ways it was translated into English for the KJV. For instance, look up "agapee" (NT:26) and after the colon-long-dash at the end of the entry, one will find "(feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love." This means that in the English KJV, one will find the word translated as "charity," "feast of charity," "charitably," "dear," and "love." So, one could go back to the body of the concordance and look up the words "charity," "feast," "charitably," "dear," and "love," and find NT:26 used at least once in one of the New Testament verses listed for that word.

Second, the various authors of the different books, such as Ezekiel, Zechariah, Matthew, or Ephesians, may have been using the same Hebrew or Greek word found in two different locations but were not using the words in the same way! Based on the theme of the book or the style and composition of the book, the words may be used in different ways. For instance, is the author trying to communicate in poetry or as a history of events or may he be trying to write an essay on a particular subject? These can all affect how he might use those words!

Third, are we sure - especially in prophetic texts - that the words are used about the SAME TIME PERIOD? There were MANY "days of the LORD" given in Scripture! All that distinguishes a "day of the LORD" from any other day is that it is a time when the LORD (YHWH) TAKES ACTION! He stops warning through His prophets and "lowers the boom!" He's had enough! Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) is mostly about the awful events surrounding the Captivity as Y'hudah is captured by N'vukhadnetsar (Nebuchadnezzar), king of Bavel (Babylon). When that day arrived, it was called a "day of the LORD!" Therefore, much of Yirmeyahu's prophecy is NOT about our future; it was about THEIR future which is now our PAST! We can still learn from their example rather than going through something similar, but the prophecy is mostly fulfilled. However, there were some statements that Yirmeyahu made that were not TOTALLY fulfilled, and those statements may have been fulfilled at a later time period or have not yet been fulfilled. God, who transcends time, will say things through His prophets that may span millennia as easily as he talks about what comes next.

There are other reasons, but these are the most important ones (IMO). The bottom line is this: "Let God be true and EVERY man a liar!" Always consider the source! What God has given in His Word we can count on, but what others SAY about His Word is questionable.

The “relating” verses in my study bible are Matt. 24:43 and 2 Co. 5:3.
Matt.24:43 & Luke 12:39
- “But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.”
2 Cor. 5:1-4
- “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

I added vss. 1,2,4 for the sake of context. The word “naked” (according to the editors) in this verse implies, “without a body”. That didn’t make a lot of sense to me either?!

I put in bold (back to Rev. 16:15) and underlined the important parts of our study. If we were to look at this verse literally and as it seems upon reading it, woe to the person who is showering or in a state of undress at the rapture. They would become the “laughingstock” of heaven. I’m sure in decades past many a sermon was preached on the dangers of sleeping in the nude based on this verse. However, a deeper look into this verse shows that a very different concept is in mind. Here are some other verses commonly associated with this theme.

LOL! Yes, I can actually REMEMBER such sermons! What they SHOULD have said is that the word "naked" implies "without an incorruptible, immortal body assured." They assume that Paul meant the following:

2 Cor. 5:1-4
- “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our temporary, mortal body) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands (our eternal, immortal body), eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven (we fervently desire to be "dressed" in our eternal, immortal bodies): 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked (without the presence of an eternal, immortal body). 4For we that are in this tabernacle (current mortal body) do groan, being burdened (with sin and mortality): not for that we would be unclothed (die), but clothed upon (resurrected), that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

And, I believe that's a fairly accurate assumption, based on the context of these verses.

As you can see, the editors of your study Bible have selected these two passages based on the words "watcheth" and "naked." Of course, there are other key English words in the passage: "thief," "keepeth," "garments," and "shame."

1 Thess. 5:2-6
- “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
2 Pet. 3:10
- “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Rev. 3:3
- “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

The first two say that “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night. Now we know that the day of the Lord is a multi-themed event spanning over a millennia, so these three verses as well as Matt. 24:43 seem to be speaking of the sudden, unannounced arrival of these events. I don’t believe any of these tie into Rev. 16:15. If you remember, prior to this verse the two witnesses were making God’s forthcoming judgments known to the world (Rev. 11:3-12) and we had the three angels announcing to the world the same, (Rev. 14:6-9). With these facts in mind, His “coming as a thief” as normally understood, seems unlikely. While the world may not believe or heed the warnings they won’t be able to claim unawareness or ignorance.

Yes, these three verses are based on the English word, "thief," being in common (and possibly the word "watch"). I believe that you have reasoned correctly here. It was just a common coloquialism used in their culture. It doesn't directly tie these verses together with Rev. 16:15 or even with each other!

I don't believe that Revelation 3:3 is to be considered talking about anybody other than the ekkleesia in Sardis, Asia Minor, and that at the time that Yochanan (John) was actually writing to them. I don't find any evidence that suggests that these "churches" represented anything for which they are usually used, such as "seven time periods during the Church Age." That's just baloney, IMO. We can learn from them, do what they did that was right, avoid what they did that was wrong, but they don't "represent" ANYTHING! They were simply seven congregations with which Yochanan was familiar, and especially since they were just across the water from him. So, Yeshua` came to him to write His words to them, since they were close by.

We also need to decide who is Christ speaking to. There are three possibilities:
1. The church
2. Believing Israel in hiding, or
3. The unbelieving world.

I readily admit that I’m studying this with my own pre-disposition towards a pre-wrath rapture and will use scriptures that seem to support my understanding, however, I hope that this study will at least have most of you re-examining how you have previously interpreted the scripture.

I know this is hard to do, but you should not be studying with ANY pre-disposition. We, as human beings go, build our philosophies upon what we have already been taught, and it's hard to do otherwise, but the best plan of attack is just to sit back with a version with which you can feel comfortable reading, and read through a book, ideally in a single sitting. Let its message flow INTO you, rather than trying to superimpose your view upon the text. Read it several times, over and over again, until it begins to make sense to you. Try to put yourself into Yochanan's shoes and try to imagine what he was seeing, hearing, and feeling, when he wrote the words. Understand his position, I mean, he was a prisoner exiled to an island, and the only way he might get anything he had written to those he loved was through the hands of his jailers. Therefore, he may have written in code, if he thought they would misconstrue what he was trying to say as a verbal attack against Rome or the emperor. And, if you need to do a further study on a particular portion, check it against the Greek texts that we have available. Use an interlinear so you can see the Greek with an English version and it will help you to understand what is going on in the passage. Look for multiple usages of a particular Greek word; look for common terms between passages; look for antonyms where one of the two words is formed out of the other. There are many ways to see what Yochanan was trying to communicate, but above all, of course, ask God to show you what you need to see so you might be able to better understand the text.

Also, there are other possibilities than the three you've mentioned, if you "slice" the population differently.

Within the context of Rev. 16:15, just prior to this verse we have the three frogs going out to the three kings (kings of the east, north and south: the a/c is already there.) to call them to the “great battle”. The very next verse affirms that they are gathered to Armageddon.

Seeing as I believe the church to already be in heaven at this time, I believe this verse is speaking to the remaining two parties. “Behold I come as a thief,” is spoken to the world and the second part, I believe, is spoken to believing Israel in hiding. I think the best concept that the word “thief” implies is with the context of John 10:10 - “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
Christ is coming to Armageddon to reclaim (steal back) His throne, to kill and destroy His enemies (those who persecuted His church during the great trib.) and the enemies of Israel.

The second part of John 10:10 is the promise to those who heed the second part of Rev. 16:15 - …”Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. They will have an abundant life if they “watcheth and keepeth” their garments. This abundant life is depicted in many of the OT prophecies about the millennium. What garments are these?
Again, we have three choices:
1. Normal every day garments.
2. Wedding garments.
3. Garments of righteousness.

Here are a few verses that may shed light on this subject:
Rev. 3:4
- “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.”
Rev. 3:18
- “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.”
Matt. 22:11-12
- “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.”

According to Strong’s, the words “watcheth and keepeth” combined have two possible meanings: The first is to “keep awake and guard from loss”. This one is probably the most considered, however, I think the second meanings are more appropriate to this verse: “To be vigilant and take note of prophecy.” The bible doesn’t tell us what believing Israel is doing for the 1260 days they are in their place of safety but I believe that they are being instructed by the 144,000 on the ways of salvation, the OT prophecies and their fulfillments regarding the Messiah, the NT and their prophecies, (taking note of prophecy) to give them an understanding of what’s going on in the outside world.

I believe the garments also apply to “believing Israel” who I believe is depicted in Rev. 19:8 - “Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) (NIV) This verse implies they are given their garments because of their righteous acts while the church has their garments washed in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:14 - “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

I believe the latter part of this verse: “he walk naked, and they see his shame “ also has a different not so apparent meaning. The Strong’s definition is simply: “he walk nude and they see his indecency”. There must be a different meaning behind this phrase. Here’s my opinion. According to Rev. 19:8, their garments are the result of their righteous acts. Rev. 3:18 above can imply that without acts of righteousness they will have no garments (clothing).

As I believe the 144,000 to be the bride of Christ; Matt. 22:11-12, also listed above, can take on a deeper meaning because these garments of righteous acts also double as wedding garments when they are described as the “wife” of the Lamb. Rev. 19:7 - “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.”

Only Israel has ever been referred to as the wife of God. The book of Hosea (with his unfaithful wife) outlines the history of God’s relationship to Israel and their future restoration of fellowship. There are several other “word” pictures that depict Israel as an unfaithful “wife” in the OT. It can also be implied that the description given to John in
Rev. 19:10
- “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

This identifies the church (that have the testimony of Jesus, see also Rev. 12:17) as someone other than the woman of vss. 7-8. So, to sum it all up, this is my opinion of what Rev. 16:15 is saying:

The time of my vengeance has come (Lk 21:22 & 2 Thes. 1:8-10) Behold! I come to reclaim my crown and to kill and destroy the enemies of my church and of Israel. Be vigilant, take heed of the prophecies lest you are judged unfit to wear the wedding garments of righteousness and be seen walking unprepared as if naked and ashamed.

LOL! I think it's a lot simpler than all that. Watch the three verses, verses 14-16, carefully. He is gathering them for battle! So, what does He do? HE STEALS THEIR CLOTHES! In essence, He is making them fight in Har-Meggidown in their underwear or less! Verse 15 begins the second sentence with "Blessed." The word in Greek is "markarios" and it means...

NT:3107 makarios (mak-ar'-ee-os); a prolonged form of the poetical makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension, fortunate, well off:
KJV - blessed, happy (X -ier).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

They should consider themselves "lucky" if they've been vigilant and get to keep their clothes for the battle!

Actually, I believe that it is just one more way that God shows His mercy! Who would be so head-strong as to charge into a battle in their underwear?! If He steals their clothes, then they might sit down to think, "Do I really want to fight this war?" If they aren't being driven by these unclean demons, then they might reconsider.

 

[veteran]

What has to happen for one to be resurrected?

I have lived, died, lived again, died again, lived, died... ad infinitum. I die daily.

Seriously though, I don't have anything to prove to you, but let me say this: everything I write comes at a cost. I expose myself. When was the last time you resurrected the dead? I don't mean with a machine, some electricity and some powerful drugs. I mean ask God and the person laying dead on the floor opens their eyes in a response to that prayer.

Only God can raise someone from the dead, which by prayer from us would be a petition for Him to do it. We don't do the raisin'.

When was the last time you died, and then awoke?

You mean like in a secret pagan initiation ritual coffer? Do they really get naked in that resurrection ritual? Maybe you didn't realize the followers of the god of this world mimic the real resurrection to come by brainwashing their members into thinking they can become gods on earth in the now. It's simply another form of that old serpent's deception like he did with Eve in God's Garden.

Do you think I come to this forum with nothing of experience, just a simple book knowledge? In another thread you asked if I was immortal, and you seemed a little shocked. Why? Jesus came and offered eternal life. My spirit and his are entwined. When he did whatever it was that he did to me I changed and now I am eternal. Do you understand? It is a fairly simple concept and one that the entire faith is based on. My spirit is quite alive although I keep driving a sword through it every time I compromise with this world.

Maybe those who desire to mimic the resurrection told you that you were now immortal, but you are not. The difference in what they are teaching you and what Paul taught is that the event of putting on immortality will occur at the time of the future resurrection and twinkling of an eye change on the "last trump" (1 Cor.15). That last trump has not sounded yet today.

You want Christian doctrine? Here it is: I love you. I love you when you stumble around in the dark and bump into things you can't see; I love you when you fall down and cry out in pain; and, I love you when you lash out in anger. Why? Because my master commands me to, and I obey him.

Thank you, I love you too, as a brother in Christ Jesus. And I'm not angry nor lashing out. I wouldn't bother showing you about the mimickers if I didn't care about your soul.

Trust me, I don't get it right all the time. I have a fallen nature and I'm stuck in this body, for now.

You should no longer have a fallen nature if you walk in Christ Jesus. That's about your spirit, not your flesh. As of right now we have the Promise of eternal life if we stay the course in Him. But we're living in perilous times today, because the devil's servants are packed in on this earth today in prep for the coming of their king.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Retrobyter, Do I think anyone is going to battle in their underwear? No, I don't. If you read the article you would see that I rejected what the editors of the bible thought and after prayerful consideration I rec'd what I believe was my answer from God. I never try to reason with just my intellect because I'm well aware that God's ways aren't our ways. Everything I write is because I prayed to God and asked for understanding and these are the things He showed me. If someone disagrees, that's fine. My purpose here is to share what God showed me, not to win a debating contest. It's up to the reader to decide if anything I write has merit or not, but hopefully they'll approach each topic with an open mind. I'm sorry to say, I haven't witnessed that too often here.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Trekson.

Hi Retrobyter, Do I think anyone is going to battle in their underwear? No, I don't. If you read the article you would see that I rejected what the editors of the bible thought and after prayerful consideration I rec'd what I believe was my answer from God. I never try to reason with just my intellect because I'm well aware that God's ways aren't our ways. Everything I write is because I prayed to God and asked for understanding and these are the things He showed me. If someone disagrees, that's fine. My purpose here is to share what God showed me, not to win a debating contest. It's up to the reader to decide if anything I write has merit or not, but hopefully they'll approach each topic with an open mind. I'm sorry to say, I haven't witnessed that too often here.

ROFL! After seeing it in the context that way, I DO! It's just too funny! Imagine! Being so fierce - so DRIVEN (by the evil spirits) - as to finding something, however ridiculous, to wear just to be sure he could join in the fight! One might just come in his body armor with hardly a thing on underneath it! That would be pretty dog-gone determined to fight!

I've read in the Bible some pretty funny things that God has done to people, such as the donkey thing with Bala'am, but humor doesn't translate too well from language to language; so, the humor in the Bible is not well seen. Even when one discovers the humor, it's like having to explain a joke. It loses its humor in the explanation. Like the BEAM in a person's eye who is trying to get a speck out of someone else's eye, it's funny but how many get the joke?

I truly believe that God does EVERYTHING He can to discourage someone from coming to the Battle, but some will be DETERMINED to come! To those, Yeshua` says, "Well, c'mon, then! Meet your Waterloo!"

 

[MTPockets]

Hi! 'Trekson'

Admittedly, I'm a little more than hesitant to offer my opinion on the verse you quoted; simply because you already seem quite confidently immune with your own expressed views.

The Book of Revelation is a revelation (unfolding) of two simultaneous events:
1. The maturing of the sons of God by the Holy Spirit.
2. The maturing of the sons of Perdition by the spirit of the Anti-Christ.
The battle of Armageddon is not an earthly battle; it is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, (Eph 6:12).
Therefore, the events described take place primarily in the unseen world (the world of the spirits / the kingdom of heaven). But the results of them will also become manifested on the earth.

The verse you mentioned interrupts the unfolding drama of the endtimes with a final warning not to be caught unawares by the horrible temptations of Rev 16:14.

Concerning the meaning of, "keeping his garments", "to go naked", and "to be seen exposed":
In 2Corinthians 5, the apostle mentioned that at the moment of their death, (the moment when their earthly tent is pulled up), the children of God have a dwelling place made without hands, an eternal building of God in heaven. At his death, a Christian leaves his outward person, and his inner man then has a covering in the unseen world. It is in this context that Paul mentions a garment.
In Rev 16:2 he said, "Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked". So, there is a possibility at the moment of death of not having the "garment of righteousness". The inner man then stands naked.
For example, let's suppose that a man is united with immoral/unclean powers. During the time that this man is living in the body, this connection remains hidden. However, when the earthly garment is destroyed, it immediately becomes evident with whom the hidden man of the heart of this man is united. His connection with the powers of sin and union with the powers of darkness becomes a matter of shame. He stands exposed.

The apostle Paul also mentioned the possibility of leaving the body without dying. "Whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up in Paradise", (2Cor 12:2).
There is a satanic imitation and counterfeit of this which can be seen with the devilish activites of spiritist séances or with the occult practice when a medium leaves his body. (The church of Anti-christ is a church of occult spiritists).

When the deceiving spirits of the anti-Christ begin to suffocate the earth; they perform great signs and wonders, (Rev 16:14). Their purpose is to inspire people to do battle against Christ and His faithful church in the heavenly places. While the Sons of God are baptized in the Holy Spirit, the sons of Perdition are baptized in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Those inspired by the anti-Christ are empowered to fight a spiritual battle against the sons of God in the heavenly places.
At a sign of the False Prophet, (a master of sorcery), the sons of Perdition will enter into a spiritist trance / séance and become especially active in the kingdom of darkness. Just like the reborn people of God walk in the kingdom of light, the degenerate followers of the anti-Christ have a walk in the kingdom of darkness. Then follows Armageddon: the titanic struggle in the heavenlies.

Our days have already revealed the powers of hypnotic spells, the psychotic "high" of drugs. Under the influence of ungodly powers, people are increasingly volunteering to enter into invisible regions hitherto hidden from natural man. For those who sleep (by hypnotism or as spiritist medium) sleep at night (in darkness), and those who get drunk (mind altering substances) are drunk at night".

The warning is heard on the earth: "Lo, I am coming like a thief!". When the bodies of the spiritists and mediums are lying motionless in trance, (while their spirits are battling against the heavenly armies), judgment will suddenly come. They will suddenly become detached their bodies. "When people say: 'There is peace and security', then suddenly destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape".

In contrast, it is said of the sons of God, "But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all sons of light and sons of the day", (1Thess 5:4). "God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him", [meaning: whether at his coming we live or have already died], (1Thess 5:7-10).

We are living in a day and hour when there is still a path of Salvation for those who do not choose to follow after deceitful spirits / powers of darkness. The Lord's voice still resounds, "Blessed is he who is awake, keeping his garments".
This same voice had also said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven". Those who are damaged in their spirits, (hidden man), are not blessed because of their spiritual defects; but because the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven offers them a way of deliverance, salvation, and healing.

 

[Episkopos]

This verse hasn’t made sense to me for a long time. It just seemed out of place. It’s placement in the book of Rev. seemed illogical because I always assumed it was speaking of the rapture. I was discussing this with a post-tribber but it really doesn’t fit in with the post-trib scenario either. So, I’ve been pondering and praying for understanding for quite a while and here is what I’ve learned. I think the problem lies in the verses we normally associate with it.

I have a KJV study bible with many editorial comments. I keep forgetting that these comments are based upon the presumptions of their (the editors) beliefs. The editors are pre-trib and their comments reflect that belief and thus their relating scriptures may not always be the best, but are assumed because of their pre-disposition to pre-trib theology. I’ve seen this in other translations as well on other topics. The identity of the church as the bride is one that comes to mind.
With all that said, let’s take a closer look at the verse in question: Rev. 16:15 - “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

The “relating” verses in my study bible are Matt. 24:43 and 2 Co. 5:3.
Matt.24:43 & Luke 12:39
- “But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.”
2 Cor. 5:1-4
- “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life
."
I added vss. 1,2,4 for the sake of context. The word “naked” (according to the editors) in this verse implies, “without a body”. That didn’t make a lot of sense to me either?!

I put in bold (back to Rev. 16:15) and underlined the important parts of our study. If we were to look at this verse literally and as it seems upon reading it, woe to the person who is showering or in a state of undress at the rapture. They would become the “laughingstock” of heaven. I’m sure in decades past many a sermon was preached on the dangers of sleeping in the nude based on this verse. However, a deeper look into this verse shows that a very different concept is in mind. Here are some other verses commonly associated with this theme.
1 Thess. 5:2-6
- “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
2 Pet. 3:10
- “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Rev. 3:3
- “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

The first two say that “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night. Now we know that the day of the Lord is a multi-themed event spanning over a millennia, so these three verses as well as Matt. 24:43 seem to be speaking of the sudden, unannounced arrival of these events. I don’t believe any of these tie into Rev. 16:15. If you remember, prior to this verse the two witnesses were making God’s forthcoming judgments known to the world (Rev. 11:3-12) and we had the three angels announcing to the world the same, (Rev. 14:6-9). With these facts in mind, His “coming as a thief” as normally understood, seems unlikely. While the world may not believe or heed the warnings they won’t be able to claim unawareness or ignorance.

We also need to decide who is Christ speaking to. There are three possibilities:
1. The church
2. Believing Israel in hiding, or
3. The unbelieving world.

I readily admit that I’m studying this with my own pre-disposition towards a pre-wrath rapture and will use scriptures that seem to support my understanding, however, I hope that this study will at least have most of you re-examining how you have previously interpreted the scripture.

Within the context of Rev. 16:15, just prior to this verse we have the three frogs going out to the three kings (kings of the east, north and south: the a/c is already there.) to call them to the “great battle”. The very next verse affirms that they are gathered to Armageddon.

Seeing as I believe the church to already be in heaven at this time, I believe this verse is speaking to the remaining two parties. “Behold I come as a thief,” is spoken to the world and the second part, I believe, is spoken to believing Israel in hiding. I think the best concept that the word “thief” implies is with the context of John 10:10 - “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
Christ is coming to Armageddon to reclaim (steal back) His throne, to kill and destroy His enemies (those who persecuted His church during the great trib.) and the enemies of Israel.

The second part of John 10:10 is the promise to those who heed the second part of Rev. 16:15 - …”Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. They will have an abundant life if they “watcheth and keepeth” their garments. This abundant life is depicted in many of the OT prophecies about the millennium. What garments are these?
Again, we have three choices:
1. Normal every day garments.
2. Wedding garments.
3. Garments of righteousness.

Here are a few verses that may shed light on this subject:
Rev. 3:4
- “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.”
Rev. 3:18
- “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.”
Matt. 22:11-12
- “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.”

According to Strong’s, the words “watcheth and keepeth” combined have two possible meanings: The first is to “keep awake and guard from loss”. This one is probably the most considered, however, I think the second meanings are more appropriate to this verse: “To be vigilant and take note of prophecy.” The bible doesn’t tell us what believing Israel is doing for the 1260 days they are in their place of safety but I believe that they are being instructed by the 144,000 on the ways of salvation, the OT prophecies and their fulfillments regarding the Messiah, the NT and their prophecies, (taking note of prophecy) to give them an understanding of what’s going on in the outside world.

I believe the garments also apply to “believing Israel” who I believe is depicted in Rev. 19:8 - “Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) (NIV) This verse implies they are given their garments because of their righteous acts while the church has their garments washed in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:14 - “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

I believe the latter part of this verse: “he walk naked, and they see his shame “ also has a different not so apparent meaning. The Strong’s definition is simply: “he walk nude and they see his indecency”. There must be a different meaning behind this phrase. Here’s my opinion. According to Rev. 19:8, their garments are the result of their righteous acts. Rev. 3:18 above can imply that without acts of righteousness they will have no garments (clothing).

As I believe the 144,000 to be the bride of Christ; Matt. 22:11-12, also listed above, can take on a deeper meaning because these garments of righteous acts also double as wedding garments when they are described as the “wife” of the Lamb. Rev. 19:7 - “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.”

Only Israel has ever been referred to as the wife of God. The book of Hosea (with his unfaithful wife) outlines the history of God’s relationship to Israel and their future restoration of fellowship. There are several other “word” pictures that depict Israel as an unfaithful “wife” in the OT. It can also be implied that the description given to John in
Rev. 19:10
- “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

This identifies the church (that have the testimony of Jesus, see also Rev. 12:17) as someone other than the woman of vss. 7-8. So, to sum it all up, this is my opinion of what Rev. 16:15 is saying:

The time of my vengeance has come (Lk 21:22 & 2 Thes. 1:8-10) Behold! I come to reclaim my crown and to kill and destroy the enemies of my church and of Israel. Be vigilant, take heed of the prophecies lest you are judged unfit to wear the wedding garments of righteousness and be seen walking unprepared as if naked and ashamed.

This is the destiny of the filthy...who lack righteousness...both Christians and Jews. We see this category throughout the bible...variously called the vessels of dishonour, those cast out into outer darkness, the rejected ones, saved as by fire, the wanderers. These are represented by the "scape goat" at Yom Kippour.

Basically these are they who hold the truth in unrighteousness. They are enemies of the cross. They refuse to fully surrender their lives to death so their works are still according to the flesh. It is this fleshly behaviour that soils their garments.

 

[Trekson]

Hi MTPockets, Your words: "The battle of Armageddon is not an earthly battle; it is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, (Eph 6:12)."

I am afraid you are mistaken. The Eph. 6:12 verse is speaking of our daily battles right now. They could be battling with temptation, prayer for healing, deliverance, protection, etc. and they also include intercessory prayers for one reason or another.

The battle of Armageddon is real; in a literal place, at the prophesied time with flesh and blood warring against each other until they unite to wage war with Christ at His physical return to earth.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

...... As far as this topic is concerned we seem to have reached a stalemate. ....... Only time will tell which is right. However, whomever is right isn't the point, imo, the point is the discussion and exchange of ideas in itself and the "friendly" fellowship that accompanies such discussions.

Hi Trekson .... some comments from me as follows ... :

You posed an interesting question in your OP and I agree the verse in Rev 16:15 seems out of place.

(Back in July) I gave it a lot of thought but was unable to come up with a helpfull comment. But I want to share a frustration I had at the time.

....

Part of what you said in your OP was this:

Luke 12:39 - “But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.”

So I went to Luke 12:1 to first find out who exactly Jesus was talking to : It was the disciples ...

Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples,

Fine I thought .....maybe these things are words (instructions) for the 12 disciples .... and maybe not all Christians.

But then later someone in the crowd yelled out

[sup]13 [/sup]Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

Fine ... Jesus gave a reply and now I am assuming everything he said was directed at everybody (not just the 12 disciples)

But then in verse 22 Jesus speaks exclusively to the disciples again...

[sup]22 [/sup]Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.

So at this point I am becoming unsure who exactly Jesus' message is intended for.

Turns out Peter was thinking the same thing and asked ....

[sup]41 [/sup]Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

WHEW .... I thought , now we will get the answer.

But Jesus did not answer the question . He pretty much went on to tell yet another parable

[sup]42 [/sup]The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? [sup]43 [/sup]It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. [sup]44 [/sup]Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. [sup]45 [/sup]But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. [sup]46 [/sup]The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

Like I said Trekson , I got a bit frustrated and set the whole thing aside back in July. I am still unsure who Jesus meant this Luke 12:39 verse for ... (in what watch the thief would come,)

It certaily seem to be associated with Rev 16:15

Now that the thread is renewed I will give it some more thought. Not sure if I can come up with anything.

I repeat my agreement that Rev 16:15 tends to look out of place .... almost like it is a piece of puzzle looking for a solution.