Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

People that were predestined were the Jews, His chosen people for a specific purpose. But not all Jews were saved. But from the beginning He wanted to set up a plan where everyone could be saved, including the Gentiles. That doesn't mean that all Gentiles will be saved either. It is Calvinism that has twisted this to mean that some have no choice but to be damned, and others had no choice but to be saved.

First, please be informed that I just edited my post for which you made this reply. The original statement "But certainly, the predestination does not suggest anything but that." is incomplete. So I edited it to complete it and now is "But certainly, the predestination does not suggest anything but that leads to heaven."

What you say there may be another view. But the way I look at it, I see that such view is problematic, in that, as you pointed out, not all Jews (ethnic Israel) are saved, while clearly predestination points to being saved. So the contradiction for which I could find no way to be in harmony with the rest of scriptures.

You said, "But from the beginning He wanted to set up a plan where everyone could be saved, including the Gentiles.". That sure sounds as though God had somehow failed concerning the salvation of Israel. Scriptures is clear, that is not the case.

Tong
R0043

 

[Renniks]

No Renniks. And I am not proposing anything there. I am far from talking about fatalism. So, you may stop thinking that I am talking about fatalism. So please read what I posted again, without that thought, and perhaps you will have a different understanding of what I am saying there.

Tong
R0042

I've had too many of these conversations to take them seriously. If I am predestined to life and my neighbor isn't, then logically, he is predestined for death. That is fatalism, no matter how you spin it.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

@bbyrd009 It was a powerful vision given to Marietta Davis by God, when she fell into a coma, you should go check out the book "Nine Days in Heaven." She saw Heaven and Hell in the vision.

Come on bro...

 

[CharismaticLady]

First, please be informed that I just edited my post for which you made this reply. The original statement "But certainly, the predestination does not suggest anything but that." is incomplete. So I edited it to complete it and now is "But certainly, the predestination does not suggest anything but that leads to heaven."

What you say there may be another view. But the way I look at it, I see that such view is problematic, in that, as you pointed out, not all Jews (ethnic Israel) are saved, while clearly predestination points to being saved. So the contradiction for which I could find no way to be in harmony with the rest of scriptures.

You said, "But from the beginning He wanted to set up a plan where everyone could be saved, including the Gentiles.". That sure sounds as though God had somehow failed concerning the salvation of Israel. Scriptures is clear, that is not the case.

Tong
R0043

God didn't fail. God gave all free will, including the angels. There is also another group that were predestined from His foreknowledge. The twelve disciples. Even Judas, though from foreknowledge, Judas' character was very flawed. So predestination doesn't mean salvation.

Check out the verses Calvinists use for OSAS. The ones in the gospels that include "God/Father has/have given me," are about the 12 disciples ONLY. Paul is referring to the Jews, and more precisely the apostles in Ephesians 1:1-12. From 13 on is about the Ephesians who also believed.

Learn to be discerning and read it in the context they were meant by Paul, and not by John Calvin who twisted scripture beyond the nature of God.

 

[Tong2020]

Predestination and election, strictly speaking, are not for believers, but speaks of and about the children of God.

What do you think believers are other than the children of God?

That's not what I meant by my statement. It's in the not FOR believers, but speaks OF and ABOUT the children of God. Of course believers are children of God. I used "children of God" so as to be clear on the matter that, there are children of God or sheep as Jesus calls them in John 10, who are yet to be found by the Good Shepherd and so be saved. Only then that they will be believers. Until then, they are counted among the unbelievers, but nevertheless are sheep of Jesus Christ.

You said "All may be saved if all will obey the Gospel." If obedience is the basis, then I don't believe there is not even one who will be saved.

Do you understand what obedience to the Gospel is? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). And since God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) all may be saved if all will repent. Nineveh is a good example.

We must not make the mistake of misapplying what happened to Nineveh in this matter. Notice what is the message that Jonah had for Nineveh ~ “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” Very different from the gospel of Jesus Christ that is considered in our discussion. I will stop, as I think that is enough, to point out that the case of Nineveh is a misapplication.

With regards the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is, the gospel that pertains to one's salvation from sin and death, as I said, I don't believe that there will be one who will be saved. The reason/s I have discussed in my post #89.

Furthermore, sinful man is described by scriptures as to be a slave to sin and he only obey his master, that is sin.

This is the Calvinistic FALLACY of *total depravity*. However the Bible is perfectly clear that unregenerated men can and must believe the Gospel under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read and study Acts 2.

Perhaps. But I did not pick that up from Mr. Calvin nor from his followers. What I say there, I got it from scriptures. Don't you believe that scriptures speaks of sinful man as being a slave of sin? Now, if you don't, say so, and I'll show from scriptures the truth of that. On the other hand, if you do, then ask yourself this question, in the context of what a slave is, at least in the days of Moses, or as slavery is defined by scriptures, how can a slave be saved? If you start from there, it would be not that difficult for the Christian to understand what the scriptures is telling us about the salvation of God and appreciate it.

You said "However the Bible is perfectly clear that unregenerated men can and must believe the Gospel under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read and study Acts 2." I have read and studied Acts 2. Obviously we see differently. Now, notice your statement which says "...under the conviction of the Holy Spirit". That sure tells us that without the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the man, the unregenerate man, on his own, is not able to come to repentance unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ.

how do you relate the election for salvation and predestination to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ with the freedom of choice of the individual?

As I have already shown election is NOT for salvation, since God offers salvation to all humanity. When the Gospel is preached the hearers must either believe the Gospel and obey it, or disbelieve and be damned. That is freedom of choice. God compels no one to be saved, as you will note in the Bible.

I have yet to read your post where you have shown election is NOT for salvation. Please provide the link. Thanks.

But if your only basis in concluding that election is not for salvation is your view that God offers salvation to all humanity, then I must say that, that would be a mistake, unless shown to be in keeping with scriptures or have scriptures which says so or teaches it.

You said "When the Gospel is preached the hearers must either believe the Gospel and obey it, or disbelieve and be damned.". That is with the presumption that those to whom the gospel is preached hears, so that they could really make a choice. Consider what Jesus says in this passage:

John 8:47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

With what Jesus said there, Jesus had revealed to us that among unconverted men, there are those who are "of God" and those who are "not of God". Those who are "not of God" don't hear the words of God, and those who are "of God" hears the word of God. So, when the gospel is preached to the hearing of unconverted men, only those who are among the "of God" group will hear and would have the choice to either believe the gospel and obey, or not. Those of the "not of God" group simply do not hear the gospel.

You said "That is freedom of choice. God compels no one to be saved, as you will note in the Bible." That's right, God compels no one or forces no one to be saved. There's no debate or disagreement to that.

Tong
R0044

 

[Renniks]

That's not what I meant by my statement. It's in the not FOR believers, but speaks OF and ABOUT the children of God. Of course believers are children of God. I used "children of God" so as to be clear on the matter that, there are children of God or sheep as Jesus calls them in John 10, who are yet to be found by the Good Shepherd and so be saved. Only then that they will be believers. Until then, they are counted among the unbelievers, but nevertheless are sheep of Jesus Christ.

Wow, convoluted much? Jesus tells us who the sheep are right there in John 10. They are the ones who enter through him.
. 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture

 

[CharismaticLady]

What do you think believers are other than the children of God?

Amen!

Do you understand what obedience to the Gospel is? Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). And since God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) all may be saved if all will repent. Nineveh is a good example.

Amen! But repentance seems to put them on the road to salvation, because even though they have been given the Holy Spirit, it is only while walking in the Spirit and NOT quenching Him, that we can stay on that road and endure to the end. Those who lose their first love must repent again.

This is the Calvinistic FALLACY of *total depravity*. However the Bible is perfectly clear that unregenerated men can and must believe the Gospel under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read and study Acts 2.

Amen!

As I have already shown election is NOT for salvation, since God offers salvation to all humanity. When the Gospel is preached the hearers must either believe the Gospel and obey it, or disbelieve and be damned. That is freedom of choice. God compels no one to be saved, as you will note in the Bible.

Amen!

 

[Renniks]

ut if your only basis in concluding that election is not for salvation is your view that God offers salvation to all humanity, then I must say that, that would be a mistake, unless shown to be in keeping with scriptures or have scriptures which says so or teaches it.

How many verses do you need to be convinced that salvation is offered to all?

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[Tong2020]

Love is a connecting issue, but not the topic.
Your possibility to Love God, is "because" He is Love and first Loved you...yet if you were a babe, didn't know what Love is or heard of God...how would you love Him?

My point about God loving them first is that, God is always first. Also, as concerning the giving of Jesus' life, not that the we loved God, but that He loved us.

Now to your argument, if I were a babe, of course I would not know anything. So, what's your point?

Tong,
* What God Does and Offers IS ONE thing.
* What An Individual does is another thing.

So, what's your point?

For God and a single Individual to Establish a Relationship...The Relationship, Acceptable TO God...IS set BY Gods "Conditions" for the Individual to Accept AND be in Agreement with God.

**** God Reveals:
The Conditions
(Heartful Belief, Your WORD of Agreement)
**** God Reveals:
What ALL He has (before mankind was created) "prepared" TO "Freely" GIVE Any man, (He already knows)...ONCE the man "accomplishes" the "conditions".
****God reveals:
What ALL He has (before mankind was created) "prepared" to Give Any man, (He already Knows)...Will Reject Gods OFFER.

God loves All of His Creations...Period.
Of His Creations (specifically mankind)...
His Love does Not Change, whether or not anyone Loves Him back.
****What Is Changing NOW:
Is: the DIVISION among men:
(God Divided, In the beginning...
Men who Chose to meet His Conditions...
From men who Chose to Not meet His Conditions.)

Ex 8:
[23] And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.

(Jesus revealed His Division.)

Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
John.7
[43] So there was a division "among the people" because of him.

Every day People are Choosing...The Lord God AND Choosing ... to Reject the Lord God.

Men are Choosing to accept Gods Offering of Salvation...and Forever Spiritual Life With God...or Rejecting His Offer.

Those who MAKE NO Choice...are Accounted "Against God".

Matt 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that "gathereth" not with me "scatterth" abroad.

God knew from Before mankind was Created...What Every Individual would Choose.

Men KNOW what "they Choose"... After "They" have made "their" individual Choice.

Whatever an Individual "Chooses"...
God HAS Already Prepared (pre-Ordained...Pre- Determined...Pre-Destin) "everything" God has For that Individual.

There IS Coming a Time of Great Tribulation Up the Earth ... AND "Separation" of the things that have been Being DIVIDED, from the Beginning.

Men Divided WITH God...will be Separated FROM those who Are Against God.
( gathering and scattering ).



God KNOWS (from Before any man was Created)...He preordained, prepares....people do NOT KNOW, until they are born, live, hear, and ELECT to Choose Him...THEN What God ALREADY KNEW...becomes accomplished.

Sorry, I tried, but I could just not follow what you are saying here.

Tong
R0045

 

[Tong2020]

Read the whole book instead of just a few verses in the center of the ninth chapter... and read it without any Calvinist glasses on. It's obvious.

I did. And forget about the Calvinist glass you are talking about. I don't follow Calvin. I follow Christ.

Now, it is you who made the charge "You completely misunderstand Romans 9." It is only but proper and fair that you substantiate your charge. Else those would just be empty words and unfounded charges.

In addition it is you who said "And verse 20 isn't about questioning God's sovereignty. Did you notice that the objector actually believes people can't resist God's will, but Paul confirms we can?" So, it is only but proper for you to substantiate, if not, show in scriptures the truth of what you are saying there. Else again, all is but empty words.

If you can't just say so, and then we move on.

Tong
R0046

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

To have that verse say that the predestination spoken there is based on God's foreknowledge is a mistake. I suggest a re-reading.

Tong
R0035

I think it is right there. Just read it as written

 

[kcnalp]

I should have said natural birth, because that's what I meant, do you believe people are predestined as babies from natural birth? Should we just sit and watch the world fall away?

No, we should pray for them as Jesus said to do.

 

[Taken]

My point about God loving them first is that, God is always first. Also, as concerning the giving of Jesus' life, not that the we loved God, but that He loved us.

Now to your argument, if I were a babe, of course I would not know anything. So, what's your point?

God already Knows an individual's Destiny.....People do not, UNTIL they Choose to Hear, Learn, "Choose."


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Tong2020]

I've had too many of these conversations to take them seriously. If I am predestined to life and my neighbor isn't, then logically, he is predestined for death. That is fatalism, no matter how you spin it.

If that's how it is for you, then so be it. But I have to say, that is an erroneous position to take.

For one is condemned to death, not because he is not among those chosen by God for salvation, but because of his sin.

No matter how one denies this, the view that because one is not among those chosen by God for salvation, that he is condemned to death, as such is predestined by God to death, is a false view and nothing short of a deceptive lie.



Tong
R0047

 

[Taken]

Saved Or Predestined ???OP ^ OP

It's not either Saved OR Predestined.

God Knows every mans Destiny....and has Already "made" preparations.

Man knows his "Destiny"...WHEN he "makes" his "Choices".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[kcnalp]

Saved Or Predestined ???OP ^ OP

It's not either Saved OR Predestined.

God Knows every mans Destiny....and has Already "made" preparations.

Man knows his "Destiny"...WHEN he "makes" his "Choices".

Glory to God,
Taken

Of course God knows. He know's EVERYTHING. He made each of us exactly as it pleased Him.

Exodus 9:12
12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh;

 

[kcnalp]

Saved Or Predestined ???OP ^ OP

It's not either Saved OR Predestined.

Guess you haven't read what God said.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Taken]

If that's how it is for you, then so be it. But I have to say, that is an erroneous position to take.

For one is condemned to death, not because he is not among those chosen by God for salvation, but because of his sin.

No matter how one denies this, the view that because one is not among those chosen by God for salvation, that he is condemned to death, as such is predestined by God to death, is a false view and nothing short of a deceptive lie.



Tong
R0047

Every man is Condemned to Death.
Every Body of every man Shall Die.
(Gen 5:9)
"Because" every Earthly person's Flesh is procreated from an other Sinful man's Seed.

However:
Every soul within the Body (belongs to God).
(Ezek 18:4) The soul becomes "Sinful", being IN Sinful flesh...
* It May become "restored", (pss 23), to Good, as it Was when God gave a man a soul....which means the soul Becomes Saved...unto God...it forever Keeps, Gods Breath of Life.
* It May never Become Restored.
* God Offers all men a Way to receive the souls Salvation, however, not All men CHOOSE, to have their soul Saved.
* When the FLESH Body is dying, the living soul (Saved or Unsaved, departs the body).
(Gen 35:18)
The Body is buried, decays, return to dust.
The living soul (with Gods Breath of Life)...
IF Saved it Goes to Heaven...and Waits, for Judgement.
IF UN Saved it goes to Hell ...and Waits, for Judgement.
The Judgement for either is not a Secret.

Also...any man having had their soul "Saved", (through Christ) ALSO...receives Gods SEED, and their natural spirit, Becomes Born Again.
So also when their body dies, their new born spirit goes to Heaven.

An UNSaved man/soul...will not receive a born Again spirit. His Natural spirit dies with his body.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[kcnalp]

His Natural spirit dies with his body.

Revelation 20:10 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Taken]

Of course God knows. He know's EVERYTHING. He made each of us exactly as it pleased Him.

Exodus 9:12
12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh;

Yes. God is JUST...
You want to Believe? He WILL soften your heart so you can believe.
You want to Not Believe? He WILL harden your heart...so you cannot Believe.

I have heard men say..." I tried" to believe...
But couldn't, because it makes no sense to them. That's correct. Belief is a Desire, not a mechanical Mindful Logical deduction.
Too many want "understanding"...before they mindfully decide they can believe.
God is NOT Looking for a mans ever changing, Mindful, Logical, commitment...He is looking a man's Hearts Desire.

1 Sam 16:7

Glory to God,
Taken