Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

God didn't fail. God gave all free will, including the angels. There is also another group that were predestined from His foreknowledge. The twelve disciples. Even Judas, though from foreknowledge, Judas' character was very flawed. So predestination doesn't mean salvation.

Check out the verses Calvinists use for OSAS. The ones in the gospels that include "God/Father has/have given me," are about the 12 disciples ONLY. Paul is referring to the Jews, and more precisely the apostles in Ephesians 1:1-12. From 13 on is about the Ephesians who also believed.

Learn to be discerning and read it in the context they were meant by Paul, and not by John Calvin who twisted scripture beyond the nature of God.

That's right, God did not fail, and He never fails. So, why did you say "But from the beginning He wanted to set up a plan where everyone could be saved, including the Gentiles.". Is that not implying that God had somehow failed concerning the salvation of Israel since you also said before saying that, that "But not all Jews were saved."? Now, are you suggesting perhaps in saying that, that God changed His plan which was in the beginning a plan where everyone could be saved?

Yes, God gave both angels and man the freedom to choose. So, what is your point in saying that?

You said "There is also another group that were predestined from His foreknowledge. The twelve disciples." Could you please explain what you mean by "predestined from His foreknowledge"?

You said "Even Judas, though from foreknowledge, Judas' character was very flawed.". I don't follow you here. Please clarify.

You said "So predestination doesn't mean salvation." I would not base what predestination the Bible speaks of on those. I base what predestination is only as scriptures says what it is and what it involves.

I am sorry, but I am not interested with the Calvinists OSAS verse or what. Let's not talk about what Calvinists believe or not believe, nor of what verse they use or what. Let's talk about what God says in scriptures.

Tong
R0051

 

[Renniks]

In addition it is you who said "And verse 20 isn't about questioning God's sovereignty. Did you notice that the objector actually believes people can't resist God's will, but Paul confirms we can?" So, it is only but proper for you to substantiate, if not, show in scriptures the truth of what you are saying there. Else again, all is but empty words.

I don't need to substantiate what is clearly written.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?

Why does God blame us for what? And who is us? Read chapter 3. Parallel passage...who is resisting God?

"if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

See the similarly? Same argument by the same objector. Ironically, the passage you are saying teaches unconditional election is teaching just the opposite, that God isn't choosing on any other basis but faith. Both chapters end up with salvation being by faith and not works. That is the point.

 

[Taken]

Guess you haven't read what God said.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Already expressly Said...God is all knowing...man Isn't.

Man knows his destiny, when he chooses it.

Men, from the beginning have chosen and rejected God...no surprise to God, He already knew and prepared...everything...for either.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Revelation 20:10 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

What is tormented...
Body, Soul, Spirit?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Here is the gist of the reactions to God electing to salvation whom He wills, accordingly his purpose, counsel and will:

"That is unfair of God."

Scripture clearly teaches it is not of mans will.

At all.

When these write their own narrative, against scripture claiming they themselves were saved by their will, again, totally contrary to scripture?

"That is fair."

Their conclusion?

They are fair.

God is not.

 

[Josho]

I'm sorry to say that I find that that she is somewhat deceived, wadr. Why I say that is easily based on your previous statement in post #30, saying "...Marietta Davis I believe her name was, was taken up to heaven and saw all the infants that have died, she saw them in Heaven."

She sure don't have an omniscient eyes that she saw ALL the infants that have died and could tell, nor have knowledge as to who are ALL the infants that have died and could tell. That by itself strongly suggest of being a false testimony, regardless of her person.

Tong
R0034

Who are you to say this and make this judgement?

And see at post #85, I hope you aren't one of those that believe nobody has made it to Heaven yet.

And eternal life means eternal life, when the body dies the soul keeps living, when someone goes through a coma their soul keeps living.

I truly believe God gave her the vision, and probably even took her soul to see the 2 places, so that she may tell the rest of the world.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Who are you to say this and make this judgement?

Seriously bro? And who are you to tell us it is actually true and make such a judgment?

 

[Josho]

I read your #65.

Now, you said God knows the future. What future are you referring to? Before all creation, can you tell us what to you is God's foreknowledge? What future does God knows ~ Is it of things He planned to do or is it of random things He didn't know will happen if not for His foreknowledge?

As you would see, my question is whether what you say God sees and knows in the future (perhaps such things as Lucifer rebelling against Him and Eve's sinning and so of Adam's sinning) are things contained in His plan or are of random things He did not know will happen if not for His power of foreknowing.

Before all creation, whatever future you are talking about that God sees ahead and knows, could only be that which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). So, having said that, God's foreknowledge could only be anything but what He determined to do (plan) and that which will come to pass according to His plan. There is nothing that happens that God does not know and does not allow to happen. There simply is no random event for God. God's foreknowledge is not of things that happens in random but of things which God has determined to do (plan) and allowed to come to pass (accomplish according to His plan). This is critical in that, an erroneous take with regards the foreknowledge of God leads to erroneous understanding and doctrines.

Tong
R0028

The mysteries of God have not ended yet, it's beyond human understanding, God doesn't expect us to understand it all.

 

[Josho]

Seriously bro? And who are you to tell us it is actually true and make such a judgment?

I believe her story, she was in coma for many days, but her soul kept living.

 

[Renniks]

No matter how one denies this, the view that because one is not among those chosen by God for salvation, that he is condemned to death, as such is predestined by God to death, is a false view and nothing short of a deceptive lie.

No, it's just plain logic. Does he have another choice? Can he be saved? If not, he's predestined for death through no fault of his own.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I'm sorry to say that I find that that she is somewhat deceived, wadr. Why I say that is easily based on your previous statement in post #30, saying "...Marietta Davis I believe her name was, was taken up to heaven and saw all the infants that have died, she saw them in Heaven."

She sure don't have an omniscient eyes that she saw ALL the infants that have died and could tell, nor have knowledge as to who are ALL the infants that have died and could tell. That by itself strongly suggest of being a false testimony, regardless of her person.

Tong
R0034

Exactly!

Those not sound, not enduring sound doctrine want to hear these things, 2 Timothy 4:1-5ff, instead of the truth of SCRIPTURE they wander off into myths and fables. If we who remain biblically sound, sola scripture, do not believe these myths we're alluded to as not believing in God (their stories.)

 

[kcnalp]

What is tormented...
Body, Soul, Spirit?

The person.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I believe her story, she was in coma for many days, but her soul kept living.

You've been hoodwinked.

"and will wander into myths..."

 

[Josho]

You've been hoodwinked.

"and will wander into myths..."

So do you believe anybody has seen Heaven or Hell?

 

[Renniks]

Guess you haven't read what God said.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

This is referring to the ot saints. It's a rear view mirror look at God's faithfulness to those who he called for various tasks. Those he knew in previous times ( foreknew) he predestined to be conformed to Christ's image. This isn't telling us they had no choice, it's revealing how God faithfully brought them through, despite thier failings.

 

[kcnalp]

This is referring to the ot saints.

Where does it say that?

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So do you believe anybody has seen Heaven or Hell?

This is where those who wander into myths always go, as if we don't believe, since we do not go there with them.

 

[Tong2020]

Wow, convoluted much? Jesus tells us who the sheep are right there in John 10. They are the ones who enter through him.
. 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture

Not so. You just happen to have a different eye.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.'

Jesus, the good shepherd speaks of the "sheep". Who are they that Jesus is referring to as the "sheep"?

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Again Jesus, the good shepherd speaks about the "sheep". But here he says of them as "My" sheep. Concerning the "sheep", He knows them and He is known by them and He owns them. Jesus said that it is for the sheep that He lay down His life for. He also speak of "other" sheep which he distinguished as not "of this fold". Not going to much detail, simply put, "the sheep of this fold" refers to the Jewish sheep and the "other sheep" refers to the Gentile sheep. The point in focus here is what Jesus said of the two folds of sheep (the Jewish and the Gentile), that He, take note, He will all bring them to be one flock. Now to bring them back denotes that these sheep are presently lost when Jesus said that. Not only that. That these lost sheep WILL HEAR HIS VOICE. This is very significant. This sets the lost sheep mentioned by Jesus here as separate from those who are not His. As also, this is in harmony with the truth that Jesus' sheep, while lost, when the voice of the good shepherd reach their ears, they surely will hear and as Jesus said (v.25) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me". All this gives us a clear picture of the salvation of God. There are other figures, such as that of the freeing of a slave. Another is that of being born again or new birth. They all give us a clear picture of the salvation of God. And in all of them figures, salvation is solely God's works and all of God's grace and all depends on God and all according to God's will, purpose, pleasure, and for His glory.

Tong
R0052

 

[Taken]

That's right, God did not fail, and He never fails. So, why did you say "But from the beginning He wanted to set up a plan where everyone could be saved, including the Gentiles.". Is that not implying that God had somehow failed

You have to Keep God and An Individual Separate, in what they Do.

God is the creator ...AND....maker.
Man is thecreated...and what a man freely "chooses"... Determines IF God will "Make", the man WHOLE (Body, soul, spirit)...or Not.

God already knows....what every individual Will choose. Men do not know...until they decide.

God forces no one, to Choose Him.
God Requires a man to Agree with His Conditions...and thereafter God is faithful to Do what He did He would.

OT men had the Condition, to Obey the Law.
NT men were given the Condition, to Believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
To Believe in Jesus Christ AND the One (God) who sent Him.

concerning the salvation of Israel since you also said before saying that, that "But not all Jews were saved."?

God Divided...Believers from non believers in the OT...and called them Hebrews/ Gentile's....then Divided the Believers into Tribes...and called them The Tribes of Israel.

In the beginning "they" agreed to Do what God instructed through, Moses and other believing Godly men.

Ex 19:
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

That has not changed.
People either Agree to DO as God requires...or they DO NOT Agree.

As the generations pass...New men are appointed leaders of the Tribes...some keep following, some do not...some people agree, some do not...and every individual...Of a Tribe of Israel or Gentile...can Agree with God, or not.

The Tribe of Judah, (and The Tribe of Benjamin)...have best Kept Gods Word according to Mosaic Law.
Those from Judah were Called Jews...and Today, the Tribes of Israel are scattered everywhere...and Individuals historically from every Tribe, are calling themselves "Jews"...
Which merely denotes, they ancestry goes back TO...one of the Tribes...and back to Abraham, the Hebrew.

It's a Tribal "brotherhood"...they are all "brethren"....
However; Not every single "Jew" believes or practices "Their" Religion, called "Judaism".

They make their individual choices, like every other person (Gentile's).

Their ceremony into "Setting the Tribes apart from Gentiles"...was Foreskin circumcision.

Well many Gentile men do that...
However there IS a Spiritual Circumcision that God performs...which is Circumcision of the Heart.

Men can NOT perform that...However men can Agree with God, For God to perform that on the man.
And God already Knows WHO AND WHEN an individual will accept His Offering and WHO will not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The person.

What is a person?