Several Theologies Start From The Chosen People Belief

[tulsa2010]

Several Theologies Start From the Chosen People Belief

Dispensationalism is not the only false doctrine which relies upon the belief that the Hebrews - ethnic Israel or the Jews - are the chosen people. Dispensationalists and Sacred Namers do not usually claim to have sacred blood, but they very much honor those who do have it, or claim to be physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Whether those who are of ethnic Israel have rejected Christ, or not, and whether they are saved or not, they remain the chosen race, according to several theologies.

God began what he calls "Israel mine inheritance" in Isaiah 19:25 in the physical. Admission to Israel was by genetics, by the physical seed of Abraham. Circumcision was done to the flesh of males. The temple was a physical building. But after God turned things upside down (Isaiah 29: 16), and initiated the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31: 31-32) at the Cross and on the Day of Pentecost, entry into Israel was by faith, and by being in Christ we are the spiritual seed of Abraham (Galatians 3: 29), physical circumcision was done away with and circumcision of the heart replaced it (Romans 2: 29), and the physical temple building was replaced by the believers as the temple of God (I Corinthians 3: 16). In the New Covenant there is no difference between former Jews and former Gentiles (Galatians 3: 28). People of all races who are born again in Christ are The Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). Physical or ethnic Israel was replaced by Israel reborn in Christ, to become the Body of Christ, and Israel born again is led by the Spirit, not by the flesh. To go back to ethnic Israel is to go back to the limitations of the physical. Returning to the doctrine of the Pharisees, that "We have Abraham to our father" (Matthew 3: 9, John 8: 39) is to become part of the spirit of Anti-Christ (I John 2: 18-19, 4: 3).

Followers of Christian identity claim that the Germanic and Celtic peoples are descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel, and therefore the Christian Identity people belong to the chosen race. They may, however, oppose the Jews.

Many groups in Messianic Judaism lay claim to being of the chosen race. Some say many in Messianic Judaism cannot prove their Hebrew blood and are really Caucasians or Gentiles. See http://www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html
and go to Footnote (5).

The Mormons also claim to have Hebrew blood and for that reason are members of God's chosen race.

On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

"The understanding of Joseph Smith, and, traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of the House of Israel"

Apparently the Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites.

All of these false doctrines are based on the belief that the physical descendants of Abraham are God's chosen people, and that God will save the chosen people in the end times. And many of those who say they are Christians and follow one or more of these false doctrines want to mingle the Old and New Covenants.

In engaging these people its important to answer some of their questions - should they even ask questions. But it is also important not to let them drag a Remnant Christian into the dialectic.

John 3: 1-7, John 8: 32-34, John 8: 39-40, John 8: 44, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 20 , Galatians 3: 28, Galatians 4: 22-26 are Scriptures that we can use to answer them.

Matthew 8: 11-12 says "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The "children of the kingdom" are those of ethnic Israel, most of whom rejected Christ.

Luke 3: 7-9 "Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8. Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

9. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

John the Baptist is speaking here and apparently there are Pharisees in the crowd he is talking to. The trees which are to be cut down is ethnic Israel, which does not bear fruit, that is, ethnic Israel as a group did not accept Christ and be transformed into born again Israel in Christ and in the Holy Spirit.

The church Christian followers of one or more of these false doctrines that honor the chosen people claim there is no authority in Scripture saying they cannot make use of parts of the Old Covenant and still be in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2: 16-17 says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. " The institutions of the Old Covenant were shadows of things to come, and are the weak and beggaly elements Paul mentions in Galatians 4: 9, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?"

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3: 3

What Paul is saying goes beyond the issue he was focused on in Galations, which was circumcision. Being made perfect in the flesh can refer to following many other aspects of the Old Covenant

 

[TexUs]

Very good. I think that Israel still has some "special" status with God runs pretty contrary to the rest of Scripture. Yet, is necessary for dispensationalist views, as you point out.

Thanks for pointing out the Mormon thing, interesting stuff.

 

[Martin W.]

Tulsa2010.
You need to start from the beginning. Re-read the Old Testament and determine who God has chosen , what he put them through , and his future plans for them.

Once you get that squared away , you are off to a good start.

In the meantime , make sure you do not mis-interpret.

Take care.

 

[TexUs]

The flawed logic in thinking Israel is special...

God made promises under their covenant. If you believe that covenant to be passed and over- those promises are over, fulfilled in Christ.

You necessarily, to maintain Israel as having special status, need there to be a still-standing covenant- which is pretty contrary to destroying the wall between Jew and Gentile, isn't it?

 

[veteran]

Just associating radical Christian movements with the false idea that God has cast away the literal seed of Israel simply doesn't work, since it denies totally what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about the literal people of Israel. I've seen this deception done many times with those who choose to stop reading past Romans 9 where Paul taught the spiritual Israel as seed idea. But the rest of the story, like Paul Harvey used to say, is continued by Paul in Romans 11...

Rom 11:1-29
1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul sets the subject being about the literal flesh born seed of Israel, asking if God has cast them off. This is the right Scripture to settle that very argument which deceived believers create strife against.


2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Apostle Paul gives an example of how Elijah fled for his life, thinking God's enemies were going to succeed in killing all of God's prophets. God said He reserved to Himself 7,000 men of Israel that had not bowed the knee in false worship to Baal.


5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Then Paul DECLARES how "at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." That means a LITERAL ISRAELITE SEED REMNANT ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE. Apostle Paul was no doubt one of them, even AFTER Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. That remnant of the seed of Israel that are according to that election of grace are still manifested today under Christ Jesus. That is not about Gentile believers at all, but only about literal Israelite believers on Christ.


6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Just to show that's not about those Israelite's own works of the law, but about God's Grace of election, that also points to their being under Christ Jesus The New Covenant and not the Old Covenant.


7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Many of the seed of Israel were blinded, God even putting "the spirit of slumber" upon them, closing their spiritual eyes (Isa.29). But for that remnant elect of the seed of Israel, they obtained God's Grace under Christ, and were not blinded. That is a pointer to their continuing in God's Plan of Salvation having believed. And that's where the ten lost tribes prophecies become part of this, for the majority of the ten tribes were scattered to the west, and later became the founders of the western Christian nations, "a multitude of nations" under Ephraim like God foretold through Jacob in Genesis 48. Many of their decendents have been told they are Gentiles when they are not.


11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

So was that stumbling of unbelieving literal Israelites done by God so they would fall? Paul says no, but that through their disbelief His Salvation would also go to the Gentiles, all nations of peoples. And in turn that was to provoke literal unbelieving Israel to jealousy. Just that aim, to provoke the literal unbelieving seed of Israelites to jealousy, shows a prophecy from God about LITERAL Israel all the way up to Christ's return.


12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul was a literal seed Israelite which Christ Himself sent to preach to the Gentiles, and to the kings, and to the children of Israel (Acts 9:15). How is it our Lord Jesus even still recognized the literal seed of Israel in what He sent Paul to do per Acts 9:15? If the literal seed of Israel are no more, like the false prophets try to claim, then why did our Lord Jesus also send Paul to preach The Gospel to "the children of Israel", meaning the literal seed of Israel? Why didn't He say something like only the spiritual children of Israel about Paul's commission in The Gospel?


14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul desired to provoke his literal seed Israelite brethren, so at least some of them might be saved. And if their stumbling was to reconcile all the nations of the world, how much more would their turning to Christ be but like being raised from the dead?


16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Christ is the Firstfruit, He is also the ROOT in this analogy. Even with this analogy, Paul is defining separate branches, one for the literal seed of Israel, and another for the Gentiles. Branches broken off are about the unbelieving seed of Israel that were blinded. The wild olive tree graffed in represent Gentiles. But WHO is that wild olive tree graffed in among? The Gentiles are graffed in among the elect remnant of the seed of Israel, the ones Paul began His message about in this Romans 11 chapter. THAT remnant of literal Israel was NEVER cut off, for like those in Elijah's day, God reserved them unto Himself.


18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

So Paul says for Gentile believers to not BOAST AGAINST THE BRANCHES OF LITERAL ISRAEL, both the elect remnant of the believing seed of Israel, and the unbelieving branch of literal Israelites. If you do boast against the natural branches of Israel Paul says you won't bear The Root, but The Root thee, meaning you won't rule with Christ as His servant, but will be under His foot like the unbelievers.


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

So, Gentiles might want to say the branches of unbelieving Israel were broken off so Gentiles might be graffed in.


20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.

But then Paul says for Gentile believers to not be highminded, but fear. Because the unbelieving seed of Israel were broken off because of unbelief. And God would do that to His Own chosen seed, take heed Gentiles lest He does the same to you for boasting against literal Israelites.


22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Note the difference between the goodness and severity of God on them which it fell. But to the believing Gentile goodness, IF the Gentile CONTINUES in His goodness, otherwise a believing Gentile can be cut off too. Picture it, once a believing Gentiles is part of spiritual Israel, and then by rebelling and boasting against the branches, the Gentile puts theirself in the same situation as unbelieving chosen seed Israelites, cut off like them.


23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

If the unbelieving branches of the seed of Israel don't remain in unbelief, they will be graffed in again, but among what branch? Their own branch of Israel under Christ Jesus according to the OT prophets, and our Lord Jesus and His Apostles. Paul will show that very detail of their being graffed back into their 'own' branch in the next verse.


24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

If the Gentiles, being a wild olive tree, are graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree (Israel under Christ Jesus), then it's just as easy for God to graff the natural branches of Israel back into "their own olive tree". That very statement by Paul, "their own olive tree" is a pointer to the SAME literal nation of Israel declared throughout The Bible. In Jeremiah 31-33 God revealed He would never, ever, cast off the literal nation of Israel. Paul saying this means those who stop reading at Romans 9 about spiritual Israel need to modify their thinking a bit about the literal seed of Israel, of how Gentiles can only be graffed in among believing literal seed Israelites. That's the only way a believing Gentile can become part of "the commonwealth of Israel" which Paul declared in Ephesians 2.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

To deny God's ultimate Plan for the literal seed of Israel in Salvation is to be wise in one's own conceit. What does it mean to be wise in conceit? It means being deceived, puffed up in pride, arrogant, and rebellious. Many of the seed of Israel are blinded by God, UNTIL what? Until the fulness of the Gentiles is over. It's not over yet, for many Gentiles in foreign nations are even today converting to Christ Jesus like never before, and they're willing to suffer great persecution for it. They are more blessed than many of us in the Christian West that haven't experienced that kind of persecution. By the way, Apostle Paul is teaching this FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS! He's gonna' quote directly from the prophets in the next verse...


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

That was written in many Old Testament Scriptures, like Isaiah 43, 45, 11, Ps.14, Isa.59, Jer.31-33, etc. Quite a lot of the Old Testament prophets has still yet to be fulfilled today. And Peter told us Christians to be mindful of what the OT prophets wrote (2 Pet.3:2). So anyone downplaying the importance of Old Testament study today simply doesn't know what they're talking about, for this prophecy Apostle Paul referred to from the prophets is still yet to happen.

In final, God is going to take away the sins of literal Israel, and establish them back in the lands of promise He gave their fathers. The literal nation of Israel with ALL twelve tribes are going to be restored per the Old Testament prophets, AND per the New Testament. Salvation for believing Gentiles depends on that, for the Gentile believers are to be established in the lands among God's remnant of Israel according to the election of grace. Israel IS the name of God's future Kingdom under Christ Jesus; it is Christ's Church with Christ as its foundation, along with the prophets and apostles. Christ even promised His Apostles would each sit upon a throne judging over one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Why would 12 thrones in that future time over the 12 tribes even exist if that's not a prophecy about future literal Israel under Christ?

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)

Until that time, the unbelieving branch of seed Israelites are our enemies for our sake because of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. But as touching God's gifts and calling and election, they are still beloved, for God's calling is without repentance, meaning He won't go back on His Promises for literal Israel.


Therefore, those who try to cast off the literal people of Israel today, as if Gentiles should rule over Israel, do God a dis-service, and are boastful and rebellious against God's Plan He has declared for the seed of Israel in final under Christ Jesus.

 

[TexUs]

is continued by Paul in Romans 11...

Yes, it is...
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
In v5, what is the qualification for the remnant? What defines it? Grace.
Note... They [Jews] aren't under the old law of works. The old covenant is dead, and this proves it. They are under the new covenant of Grace just like everyone else.


"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."
"in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them."
This is simply a continuation of the above idea. You'll note it is present (to Paul) tense. A present (to Paul) sense of jealousy and repentance already happening to whom? The elect spoken of earlier.


"For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."
So you read this and can say that Jews, who were living in the shadow of the cross to come, won't- when they see the light- see the fulfillment and fit within it EASIER than a Gentile who has no prior knowledge nor covenant? I think that's all this is saying.


I notice you stopped quoting the passage, wonder why?
v32, "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."
Again, a global, singular, covenant- with the world. This is the concluding statement of Paul's argument and yet you omitted it. The "end result" the "concluding game plan" was this statement.






I don't have a problem with much of what you said, hence why I'm not going to quote it and nit-pick it. I think our difference is still with the "remnant" that you see. The remnant is not saved by some "special" deal with God. They are saved by grace, through Christ- exactly like the Gentiles. The remnant is simply this: elect Jews.
Which is why I still maintain, there is nothing special about Israel today.

 

[Martin W.]

I will say this one more time.

Read the Old Testament:

-God has a history with the Nation Israel
-God has a current plan for the Nation Israel
-God has a future plan for the Nation Israel



The Nation of Israel is not a group of gentile christian cowboy's in Montana .

Read carefully my friends

 

[TexUs]

I will say this one more time.

Read the Old Testament:

-God has a history with the Nation Israel
-God has a current plan for the Nation Israel
-God has a future plan for the Nation Israel



The Nation of Israel is not a group of gentile christian cowboy's in Montana .

Read carefully my friends

You haven't referenced anything.

I'd readily, if shown a good argument (Romans 11 won't do it for me) change my views.
But the "Israel is special" is coming from repetitive church tradition (you know, like the Great Comission) and not my own study of the Word. So I cannot support that until I've seen differently.

 

[Martin W.]

You haven't referenced anything.

I'd readily, if shown a good argument (Romans 11 won't do it for me) change my views.
But the "Israel is special" is coming from repetitive church tradition (you know, like the Great Comission) and not my own study of the Word. So I cannot support that until I've seen differently.

Hi Tex.

I am not going to reference anything. I can copy and paste the old testament here which will only prove I can copy and paste. I also do not find it beneficial to make the claim that I feel The Old Testament has a running theme regarding the nation of Israel. It does it just fine on its own. My endorsement is not required.

I am just as guilty as many who feel that Christianity is the central theme and I am the beloved center of that theme , and that North America is where God houses his servants. That type of thinking strokes my ego and makes me feel smug. Special too. Even think I am Israel sometimes. Gives me a special feeling.

Special feelings and smugness cannot overrule the fact that God has (and always has) his nation Israel central to his plans.

try as I might.

Thanks
Martin

 

[Martin W.]

Hi Tex

Here is a quick example:

Some day in the future , Israel will no longer be surrounded by nations that are thorns and briers.

Once God has regathered Israel , (already has) , prospered them (happening now) one day in the future (probably soon) he will blow the surrounding nations far out into the desert.

Israel will posses the original land of Jacob , not the little sliver they occupy now.

God names those surrounding nations many times. (Remember these are still future events) . Currently we know them as Jordan , Syria, Lebanon, Iraq , Saudi Arabia etc. etc, It is written clearly , and it is clear they are future events.

A gentile Christian cowboy in Montana cannot make the claim that he is surrounded by those nations.

Try as he might.

Notice I didn't copy half the bible. I type using my own words from memory . I am subject to correction .

Thanks
Arnie Martin
Woodside

I love Romans. I wish I was Israel and saved by Christ.
But I am just saved by Christ.
I must accept that for now.

 

[TexUs]

And again I'd say to all of that, that covenant is over with. (see my original statement on the matter).
Do you believe, then, God has kept the OT covenant?