Slaying Sacred Cows-- examining pet beliefs

[Grailhunter]

I don’t know as I’m not a member of a subgroup.

The Church of one.

 

[Enoch111]

Maybe you can explain to us all how the centurions that were witnessing the crucifixion of Christ. Were able to see what was going on in the temple?

This is hilarious! Who said that the centurions were seeing what was going on in the temple? The Gospel writers were writing by DIVINE INSPIRATION and it was God who saw everything and then told them to write what happened. None of them saw anything that was happening at Calvary or in the temple. So how could they write without divine inspiration?

 

[Waiting on him]

The Church of one.

Come on man, you’re not gonna tell me I gotta go to church to have an opinion. People go to church to be told what their opinion is.

 

[Waiting on him]

I’ve come to realize Technically speaking...sin (as with Satan) DOES exist in heaven. Where do you think Satan rebelled from when Christ saw him falling?

My opinion on this would be what Jesus was referring to in this scripture would be heaven being their stone temple, because in their minds this is where God resided. In the holiest of holies. Jesus commonly referred to those outside of Gods will as Satan.. even Peter he refers too as satan.

 

[Grailhunter]

Come on man, you’re not gonna tell me I gotta go to church to have an opinion. People go to church to be told what their opinion is.

People might have felt the same way with Paul.....Hey who is this guy to tell us what to believe? LOL
I do not go to church to have someone tell me what to believe. Most the churches have a lot of beliefs that are wrong.
I go to church to fellowship with Christians. I go to church to stand with other Christians and worship the Lord in prayer and hymns.
And the church building is not the only way, I fellowship with Christians....we have home study....Holiday meals....picnics ...fishing.... hunt....camping....Bible camp...boating...
bottom line....hang with Christians.....it is all a church.

Belief control...LOL...it is the fantasy of every denomination and pastor in history.....controlling the beliefs of those in the pews....LOL.
It does not happen. The Bible tells us to assemble.....who else are we going to hang with? Hide our candle under a basket?

 

[Waiting on him]

People might have felt the same way with Paul.....Hey who is this guy to tell us what to believe? LOL
I do not go to church to have someone tell me what to believe. Most the churches have a lot of beliefs that are wrong.
I go to church to fellowship with Christians. I go to church to stand with other Christians and worship the Lord in prayer and hymns.
And the church building is not the only way, I fellowship with Christians....we have home study....Holiday meals....picnics ...fishing.... hunt....camping....Bible camp...boating...
bottom line....hang with Christians.....it is all a church.

Belief control...LOL...it is the fantasy of every denomination and pastor in history.....controlling the beliefs of those in the pews....LOL.
It does not happen. The Bible tells us to assemble.....who else are we going to hang with? Hide our candle under a basket?

Your telling me that the theory you hold about these alleged celestial beings having sex with human women was something you came up with all on your own?

 

[Grailhunter]

Your telling me that the theory you hold about these alleged celestial beings having sex with human women was something you came up with all on your own?

I am pretty well educated LOL
It is in fact what the Bible describes....
People have issues with sex....so they think how could a God begot a Son? The whole belief that sex is dirty, nasty, and sinful and created by the devil to produce children with sin.....Ludicrous!
Look at the description of what the angel said would happen.
What does begot mean?
Miriam conceived......what does conceive mean?
Was Miriam called a virgin after she was impregnated?
Miriam was pregnant....how does that happen?
Miriam delivered a baby....all normal.
Is Yeshua not the real Son of Yahweh?
Is He a creation.....?
How about mitosis....did Yahweh split in half?
Did Scotty beam Him in?
Truth can be shocking!
Occam's razor....

How did it happen exactly? No video....we do not know exactly. But the description in the Bible describes that the over all act was normal, Nothing suggests beaming Him in. Or a miraculous manifestation of a baby.

 

[Waiting on him]

It is in fact what the Bible describes....

What if…… it’s a contrived story, due too a lack of understanding?

 

[Waiting on him]

How did it happen exactly? No video....we do not know exactly. But the description describes that the over all act was normal, nothing suggests beaming Him in. Or a miraculous manifestation of a baby.

The same way it happened with every human being ever conceived?

 

[Waiting on him]

Jude 1:5-6 KJV
[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. [6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


What if,,,,,, the angels in reference here are merely ministering spirits?

 

[Grailhunter]

The same way it happened with every human being ever conceived?

Like I said....we do not know exactly. But all of the words and descriptions are there, more precisely then any other moment of conception.

 

[Waiting on him]

Like I said....we do not know exactly. But all of the words and descriptions are there, more precisely then any other moment of conception.

@Mr E has a thread dealing with this.

 

[Waiting on him]

1 Timothy 4:7 KJV
[7] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
1 Timothy 1:4 KJV
[4] Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
2 Timothy 4:4 KJV
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 1:16 KJV
[16] For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Titus 1:14 KJV
[14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


The fables that are spoken of in these scripture references. What do you suppose they could be?

 

[Wrangler]

My opinion on this would be what Jesus was referring to in this scripture would be heaven being their stone temple, because in their minds this is where God resided. In the holiest of holies. Jesus commonly referred to those outside of Gods will as Satan.. even Peter he refers too as satan.

Sin began in heaven with Satan and 1/3 of the angels rebelling. Sin did not begin on Earth. (Of course, the first sins man committed were on Earth) It is preposterous to suppose these heavenly beings were outside of heaven when they rebelled. Indeed it is inherently contradictory. It'd be like saying these water breathing fish were out of the water when they were cast out of the water.

A big time sacred cow is the notion that heaven is a place without sin. In fact, it is the place sin originated. Only after Satan rebelled did he become god of this world, tempting Adam and Eve.

This is why Revelations 21 & 22 talk about a New Heaven and a New Earth. There is a need for a New Heaven. What is wrong with the old heaven? Just as what is wrong with Earth; it is contaminated by sin. This is why Christianity's end game, 1 COR 15:22-28, says Christ will rule until he puts all his enemies under his power, and the last enemy he destroys will be death. This is not talking about only human enemies will be put under Christ's power.

This is the culmination of Satan's machinations as evidence by Luke 22:31, where Satan demanded to test (or sift like wheat from the tares) the Apostles. To me, this is the scariest passages in all of Scripture, for the implication is, not only is Satan still in the presence of God - as Job explicitly states - but worse, God is deferring to Satan's will, which can only be evil. But we know God will use it for God. Praise God!

 

[Mr E]

1 Timothy 4:7 KJV
[7] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
1 Timothy 1:4 KJV
[4] Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
2 Timothy 4:4 KJV
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 1:16 KJV
[16] For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Titus 1:14 KJV
[14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


The fables that are spoken of in these scripture references. What do you suppose they could be?

Ethcuthe me Myth--- Ith thith theat taken?

Right on. A little leaven goes a lonnnnnnngggg way. All you need is time, or a tyrannical ruler and you can establish any fact you like. We can go from a young woman, a virgin, getting pregnant and having a child to a young woman getting pregnant and having a child without ever having sex, to this woman being a virgin for all time, or perhaps having multiple virgin births, having other sons and daughters while remaining a virgin or we might say she couldn't have had other children because she was a virgin, while arguing at the same time she did just that. We could then say the child was sinless and because of this the mother too was sinless and we could say that both mother and son ascended into heaven. You mean these kinds of myths?

It becomes the game of telephone. And the endless genealogies come into play because they so easily come into question ONLY because of the myth that there was no actual father. Because people can't accept the idea that Joseph fathered Jesus, they have to manufacture and invent all kinds of scenarios. Not helpful.

Dismiss such fables.

 

[Wrangler]

Because people can't accept the idea that Joseph fathered Jesus, they have to manufacture and invent all kinds of scenarios.

This is because they simultaneously deny

1. the Creator has only one personal name, YHWH;
2. Both ‘god’ and ‘son of god’ are titles, not personal names. Such terms apply to many Beings;
3. These Beings have many titles, just as many accomplished humans have many titles;
4. Neither ‘father’ nor ‘son’ are personal names but relational words;
5. It is common for old men to refer to young men as son - even today.
6. It is common for young men to refer to old men as dad or even grandpa - even today.

In 1st century Israel, people used the titles as synonymous: ‘Messiah’ with ‘son of god.’ Neither term was synonymous with YHWH in monotheist Israel.

 

[Mr E]

This is because they simultaneously deny

1. the Creator has only one personal name, YHWH;
2. Both ‘god’ and ‘son of god’ are titles, not personal names. Such terms apply to many Beings;
3. These Beings have many titles, just as many accomplished humans have many titles;
4. Neither ‘father’ nor ‘son’ are personal names but relational words;
5. It is common for old men to refer to young men as son - even today.
6. It is common for young men to refer to old men as dad or even grandpa - even today.

In 1st century Israel, people used the titles as synonymous: ‘Messiah’ with ‘son of god.’ Neither term was synonymous with YHWH in monotheist Israel.

True enough. We believe in one God, supreme. One origin. The origin-el.

One source. One Father.

And everything came from Him. How? Simply by His word. His logos. Said and done.

From Him come all things.... and we call it all His fruit. His seed. And it matters. It all comes from one tree.

 

[Behold]

One sacred cow I’m particularly interested in is the the sons of God. The notion there could be any prior to the birth of Jesus.

There is a bit of uncertain teaching, regarding your post, that is related to this...

Genesis 6:1–4​

1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,

2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive.

 

[ScottA]

I dont believe there were any sons of God in the Old Testament. I do believe there were sons of men.

In other words in my understanding the Old Testament patriarchs weren’t part of Gods creation?

What you (or any of us) "believe", does not change what is true with God.

The scriptures say that "all things were created by Him." But that is not the point I was making. The point is, that Jesus was and is active in this world from beginning to end, but only came in the form of a man during that brief time in history. He is the apex of all things, and all things are in Him. This is all about Him, and those who were and are "in Him" from the beginning of this world unto the end.

 

[ScottA]

I’ve come to realize Technically speaking...sin (as with Satan) DOES exist in heaven. Where do you think Satan rebelled from when Christ saw him falling?

That moment of Satan's rebellion and falling, was his moment of conceiving evil within him...which is not to say (technically) "within God", although all things are "in God", but creates a distinction between "in us" as opposed to "in God", as He has first created us apart from Himself to only be One with Him in the end. Therefore we must be born again (of the spirit of God).

As for "that moment of Satan conceiving evil" as if in his own mind...that is why Jesus addressed Peter as Satan when he conceived the idea that Jesus should not die for the sins of the world-- because Peter had likewise conceived evil according to Satan who is against God. By conceiving evil in his mind, Peter momentarily stepped off of the path leading to being "in Christ" and stepped rather "in Satan." Fortunately for Peter, Jesus rebuked him, returning him to again be on the path leading to being "in Christ", which began when Jesus said "follow me"...and is also why Jesus clarified that we sin if we even think of evil. Which is a very accurate description of our own situation--not just of Peter, but of us all, having first been born among the fallen, and then called out.