So why are they removed from the Lord's kingdom?

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are saying the text given in that chapter is incorrect?

No, I'm not.

You claim the 3rd woe is before the 2nd woe.

That is not at all what I'm claiming. Read what I said again and read it carefully this time.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming shortly.

Did you even read what I said? I'm saying that Revelation 11:14 picks up where Revelation 9:13-21, which describes the second woe, left off. And then Revelation 11:15-19 describes the third woe which follows the second woe that was described in Revelation 9:13-21. So, I am not at all saying that the 3rd woe occurs before the 2nd woe as you are falsely accusing of me. Is this too difficult for you to follow? It shouldn't be.

My goodness, you are so backwards.
I think the Lord got it right and your just acting crazy.

It's typical of someone to resort to false accusations and insults like this when they have no idea of what they're talking about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You believe the 3rd woe is before the 2nd woe as well huh?

Revelation 11:14 The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming shortly.

Guy's, I remember learning in preschool that second comes before third.Im sure theLord got this right.

Did you learn anything about reading comprehension at any point in school? Because your reading comprehension is apparently very poor. Nowhere did he nor I ever indicate that we think the third woe occurs before the second woe. Resorting to false accusations does nothing to help your case.

 

[shilohsfoal]

No, I'm not.

That is not at all what I'm claiming. Read what I said again and read it carefully this time.

Did you even read what I said? I'm saying that Revelation 11:14 picks up where Revelation 9:13-21, which describes the second woe, left off. And then Revelation 11:15-19 describes the third woe which follows the second woe that was described in Revelation 9:13-21. So, I am not at all saying that the 3rd woe occurs before the 2nd woe as you are falsely accusing of me. Is this too difficult for you to follow? It shouldn't be.

It's typical of someone to resort to false accusations and insults like this when they have no idea of what they're talking about.

Although We are talking about the false prophet, I've not brought the rest of Revelation into this.
Yes the false prophet has two horns and causes those to recieve a mark in thier right hand or foreheads.
I'd say those two prophets do a good job misleading the prostitute in those 42 months. She is given the cup of the wine of the wrath of God because she was misled by this two.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Did you learn anything about reading comprehension at any point in school? Because your reading comprehension is apparently very poor. Nowhere did he nor I ever indicate that we think the third woe occurs before the second woe. Resorting to false accusations does nothing to help your case.

You had stated it is not written in chronological order. I said that chapter we are discussing is.

What got you off track? Are you attempting to change the subject or what?

 

[Truth7t7]

If the two witnesses are two human beings then in what sense are they two olive trees and two candlesticks/lampstands? Earlier in the book candlesticks symbolically represent churches, so why would they then represent human beings in Revelation 11? What do olive trees represent in Romans 11? Not individual human beings. So, these things need to be taken into consideration.

Also, it has to be taken into consideration that the Lord was NOT crucified in Jerusalem.

Hebrews 13:11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

John 19:19 Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews. 20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.

So, the place that is spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt" where the Lord was crucified is the earth or this world. I believe the two witnesses symbolically represent the church (two olive trees and two candlesticks represent Jew and Gentile believers preaching the gospel) and the death of the two witnesses represents the temporary end of the gospel being preached powerfully throughout the world through the church because of an increase in wickedness and a mass falling away from the faith (see 2nd Thess 2). The witness of the church is largely silenced for a symbolic 3.5 days (representing Satan's little season) and then the end comes at the seventh and last trumpet when all Christ's people are caught up to Him and all of His enemies are destroyed.

The (Two Witnesses) are literally prophets returned, they represent the altar of God upon earth, you will note in Revelation chapter 5 the "Golden Oil" represents the prayers of the saints, the two witnesses will literally pour this golden oil through themselves upon the wicked in "Plagues" a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation chapter 11 clearly teaches that the two witnesses will have literal bodies that die, lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, and be literally raised to heaven, before a literal world watching

Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Although We are talking about the false prophet, I've not brought the rest of Revelation into this.
Yes the false prophet has two horns and causes those to recieve a mark in thier right hand or foreheads.
I'd say those two prophets do a good job misleading the prostitute in those 42 months. She is given the cup of the wine of the wrath of God because she was misled by this two.

I didn't say anything about the false prophet. You're not addressing what I've actually said. It's like you're reading what someone else has said and replying to that instead of to what I've said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You had stated it is not written in chronological order. I said that chapter we are discussing is.

What got you off track? Are you attempting to change the subject or what?

Are you even trying to understand what I'm saying? I'm not saying that the seven trumpets or three woes (last three of the seven trumpets) don't occur in chronological order. I'm saying, for example, that Revelation 9-11, is not all written in chronological order. The second woe is the sixth trumpet. Would you agree? Where is that described? In Revelation 9:13-21. It's not described in Revelation 11:1-13. That is a parenthetical passage rather than being a passage describing something that occurs after the sixth trumpet.

So, when Revelation 11:14 says "the second woe is past", it's picking up where Revelation 9:21 left off, rather than where Revelation 11:13 left off. Events that occur at the third woe/seventh trumpet are then described in Revelation 11:15-18 and those events occur after the second woe/sixth trumpet that was described in Revelation 9:13-21. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm clearly NOT saying that the third woe occurs before the second woe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The (Two Witnesses) are literally prophets returned, they represent the altar of God upon earth, you will note in Revelation chapter 5 the "Golden Oil" represents the prayers of the saints, the two witnesses will literally pour this golden oil through themselves upon the wicked in "Plagues" a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation chapter 11 clearly teaches that the two witnesses will have literal bodies that die, lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, and be literally raised to heaven, before a literal world watching

Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

You didn't address the rest of what I said, but it's okay since we do agree on a lot. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Are you even trying to understand what I'm saying? I'm not saying that the seven trumpets or three woes (last three of the seven trumpets) don't occur in chronological order. I'm saying, for example, that Revelation 9-11, is not all written in chronological order. The second woe is the sixth trumpet. Would you agree? Where is that described? In Revelation 9:13-21. It's not described in Revelation 11:1-13. That is a parenthetical passage rather than being a passage describing something that occurs after the sixth trumpet.

So, when Revelation 11:14 says "the second woe is past", it's picking up where Revelation 9:21 left off, rather than where Revelation 11:13 left off. Events that occur at the third woe/seventh trumpet are then described in Revelation 11:15-18 and those events occur after the second woe/sixth trumpet that was described in Revelation 9:13-21. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm clearly NOT saying that the third woe occurs before the second woe.

Perhaps you should just focus on the subject at hand. That being the two prophets.

 

[Truth7t7]

You didn't address the rest of what I said, but it's okay since we do agree on a lot. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Yes we disagree on this, I believe literal prophets returned, literal plagues in a literal world, literal death of physical bodies, as a literal world watches

You apparently follow the standard reformed eschatology in a symbolic interpretation, I believe scripture teaches that it's literal

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Perhaps you should just focus on the subject at hand. That being the two prophets.

That is what I'm doing. I'm trying to help you see the correct context of Revelation 11:1-13, but you are apparently not interested in that and would rather just assume that Revelation 11:1-19 is all chronological.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes we disagree on this, I believe literal prophets returned, literal plagues, in a literal world, literal death of physical bodies, as a literal world watches

Yep, I gathered that from what you said before.

You apparently follow the standard reformed eschatology in a symbolic interpretation, I believe scripture teaches that it's literal

I don't follow anyone else's eschatology. If my view on this happens to agree with their view, then it's just a coincidence.

Jesus Is The Lord

Amen.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't see where Paul says anything about a cloud ascending into heaven. Are you saying the apostles ascended onto heaven like Jesus?
You can't think of any other cloud that ascends into heaven on the day of the Lord?

I was referring to
Revelation 11:12 Lexicon: And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

no Paul doesn’t say anything about a cloud or that they went up into heaven in a cloud…but Revelation does. What ascending are we talking about then? I can’t say they ascended up in a cloud as Jesus did: but instead I was only making the point that IF “a great cloud of witnesses” were to ascend up into heaven in a cloud …would it be that encompassed about with a great witness of Christ. where Paul did say “lay aside every weight”
Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is (risen?)set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think John did an outstanding job describing what he saw.I can see why Jesus chose him for this job.

it wouldn’t let me quote the video of the worlds most powerful Nuclear bomb. I don’t think that is any where close to what John described. But that is just an opinion. For me it is taking something spiritual and trying to make fit within our own understanding. Like helicopters. And all the other things used to make revelation fit with the seen rather than the Revelation of that which is unseen.

 

[shilohsfoal]

That is what I'm doing. I'm trying to help you see the correct context of Revelation 11:1-13, but you are apparently not interested in that and would rather just assume that Revelation 11:1-19 is all chronological.

All I've pointed out is the 2nd woe is before ghe 3rd woe. That's when you said that chapter is not in order. It's looks perfectly fine to me and correspond to Daniel 11.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I was referring to
Revelation 11:12 Lexicon: And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

no Paul doesn’t say anything about a cloud or that they went up into heaven in a cloud…but Revelation does. What ascending are we talking about then? I can’t say they ascended up in a cloud as Jesus did: but instead I was only making the point that IF “a great cloud of witnesses” were to ascend up into heaven in a cloud …would it be that encompassed about with a great witness of Christ. where Paul did say “lay aside every weight”
Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is (risen?)set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ok

 

[shilohsfoal]

it wouldn’t let me quote the video of the worlds most powerful Nuclear bomb. I don’t think that is any where close to what John described. But that is just an opinion. For me it is taking something spiritual and trying to make fit within our own understanding. Like helicopters. And all the other things used to make revelation fit with the seen rather than the Revelation of that which is unseen.

You believe an earthquake is spiritual?
John was describing the events of the apocalypse.
It's what the armed forces of the king of the north do at the time of the end in Daniel 11.
War is hell.
Daniel 11:44 But news from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.

 

[ScottA]

According to revelation, the two witnesses are killed and then resurrected from the dead 3. 5 days later. They then ascend into heaven in a cloud. Note that there is a great earthquake also.

Revelation 11:13 NLT: At the same time there was a terrible earthquake that destroyed a tenth of the city. Seven thousand people died in that earthquake, and everyone else was terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Now just a few verses later after they have been removed from the earth, the seventh trump is sounded and the kingdom of this earth becomes Christ's kingdom.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever."

According to Jesus in the gospel, it is those whom have done evil that is removed from his kingdom. I've considered the works of those two prophets and all it says is they torment people and kill people which is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught us to do in the gospel.

So if these two prophets are good, then why are they removed from Christ's kingdom when the wicked are removed?

Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
Matthew 13:42 And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It would appear that you have some misconceptions about what is written here.

The two are not wicked--nor removed from the Kingdom, but torment all who live in darkness and in the flesh, for they are sent of the Spirit of God bringing an end to all who live according to the flesh.

These two witnesses are referred to in the scriptures in many ways, even in parables, that the wicked should not understand until it is too late. These are those two who were crucified with Christ--who share in one death and life and are raised together in one cloud of ascension. Meaning, the two that become one new body: "first the Jew and then the gentile." Which is portrayed as such, but represent "the dead in Christ" (Israel), and "the living in Christ" (those born again among the gentiles)--the flesh and the spirit, as it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All I've pointed out is the 2nd woe is before ghe 3rd woe. That's when you said that chapter is not in order.

But, I didn't say that the third woe occurs before the second woe, so why make that accusation? My point is that what is described in Revelation 11:14-19 does not immediately follow everything that is described in Revelation 11:1-13 as you believe. Revelation 11:15-19 describes the third woe, which is the seventh trumpet. That follows the second woe, which is the sixth trumpet and that is described in Revelation 9:13-21.

So, as I've said multiple times now, Revelation 11:14 picks up where Revelation 9:21 left off rather than continuing chronologically from where Revelation 11:1-13 leaves off. So, because of this, your claim that the two witnesses are caught up before the seventh trumpet instead of at the sounding of the seventh trumpet is not true. Your claim is based on your assumption that Revelation 11:1-19 is all chronological instead of recognizing that Revelation 11:1-13 is a parenthetical passage while Revelation 11:14-19 continues from where Revelation 9:13-21 left off.

 

[Enoch111]

So if these two prophets are good, then why are they removed from Christ's kingdom when the wicked are removed?

What makes you think that they are removed from Christ's Kingdom? You are simply not interpreting correctly what is written. Anyone who goes to Heaven is within the Kingdom of God.