St Malachy

[Peltast]

It is strange that the papers are full of the supposed end times as predicted by the Mayans, and yet not one of them has mentioned the prophesies of St Malachy (12th century Irish archbishop). Although not strictly an end times prophesy, he predicted 112 popes, and has so far been correct on the first 111 of them.

Will the year 2012 be the end of the Roman Catholic church? Will the next pope be the last? Why aren't the newspapers asking these questions?

 

[aspen]

I've actually heard a lot about him lately, but I am Catholic so that might make a difference. The Catholic Church will never end, BTW.

 

[Peltast]

The Catholic Church will never end, BTW.

And your evidence for that would be?

 

[aspen]

And your evidence for that would be?

Matt 16:18

 

[jiggyfly]

I've actually heard a lot about him lately, but I am Catholic so that might make a difference. The Catholic Church will never end, BTW.

I hope that by saying the "Catholic Church" you mean the universal Christian church and not the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[elysian]

I hope that by saying the "Catholic Church" you mean the universal Christian church and not the Roman Catholic Church?

Universal Christian church?

 

[Prentis]

Peter the pope? Not what scriptures say. He was an apostle. Catholicism has robbed early church history and it's value... Peter was no more a pope than Clement was.. and Clement was a bishop. No more a bishop than Polycarp or Ignatius.

The church of Christ is those who are one in him now. They walk together in the same direction. Men have taken all the things that God has done and turned them into movements and religions. But once the Spirit is God, it all goes down the drain and becomes what men want to do! If 2 or 3 are gathered in unbelief (and unison of doctrinal stance), is God among them?

 

[jiggyfly]

Universal Christian church?

Yes, all of the believers in Christ. The Christian ekklesia. The English word catholic comes from the Greek word katholikos and means universal or whole.

 

[Craig Farrow]

I believe the term by Malachi was "the gory of the olive" which I`m told is the symbol of the Benedictine order. An interesting quirk of fate shows that the Greek version of Benedict (Benediktos) when put into a greek gematria program....http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/Isopsephia.html Well see for yourself!

 

[aspen]

666 - yikes
Who knew that I was an oblate of the Beast?

Perhaps every Greek......

Peter the pope? Not what scriptures say. He was an apostle. Catholicism has robbed early church history and it's value... Peter was no more a pope than Clement was.. and Clement was a bishop. No more a bishop than Polycarp or Ignatius.

The church of Christ is those who are one in him now. They walk together in the same direction. Men have taken all the things that God has done and turned them into movements and religions. But once the Spirit is God, it all goes down the drain and becomes what men want to do! If 2 or 3 are gathered in unbelief (and unison of doctrinal stance), is God among them?

Are you excluding me because I am Roman Catholic?

And, yes Jiggy, I was speaking about the Universal Church.

 

[Prentis]

No, I am not excluding you because you are catholic.

I have nothing against Catholics.... But I see the system that man has created as an enemy of the people, which binds them from going further in depth with Christ.

 

[aspen]

No, I am not excluding you because you are catholic.

I have nothing against Catholics.... But I see the system that man has created as an enemy of the people, which binds them from going further in depth with Christ.

I used to too. Then I spent two years studying Catholic doctrine and discovered that I was basing my understanding of Catholicism on the opinions of my Protestant teachers.

 

[jiggyfly]

And, yes Jiggy, I was speaking about the Universal Church.

Thanks Aspen I thought that was the case but didn't want to speak for you.

 

[Prentis]

I used to too. Then I spent two years studying Catholic doctrine and discovered that I was basing my understanding of Catholicism on the opinions of my Protestant teachers.

I am not talking about doctrine... I actually find myself agreeing more with catholic doctrine then with protestant doctrine.

But even the right doctrine is worthless if the life of Christ is not present. When I say system, I am speaking of what has become an organization, with positions to fill, salaries, etc... The issue is we have created a system that, when the Spirit desires to do something new (all the time, might we say?), will resist the will of God.

 

[jiggyfly]

I used to too. Then I spent two years studying Catholic doctrine and discovered that I was basing my understanding of Catholicism on the opinions of my Protestant teachers.

On a side note, what do you think of Eastern Orthodox?

 

[aspen]

I am not talking about doctrine... I actually find myself agreeing more with catholic doctrine then with protestant doctrine.

But even the right doctrine is worthless if the life of Christ is not present. When I say system, I am speaking of what has become an organization, with positions to fill, salaries, etc... The issue is we have created a system that, when the Spirit desires to do something new (all the time, might we say?), will resist the will of God.

There are dangers in all organizations run by human beings - even organization guided by the Holy Spirit. A worldwide church has bureaucracy - it is unavoidable. The only way to avoid it is to start over everyday as a church organization. One of the reasons denominations are so prevalent these days is because of the fundamentalist fantasy of a pristine, Early Church model. The problem with this mindset is that we have no idea how they managed organizational problems AND Christianity has grown from a few thousand to 2 billion people. Yet, we what to share Jesus with people, but we fear the ramifications of success.

Haven't you notice the futility of many churches who, after the excitement of starting a new church and the slog of running the church with all the challenges of growth and organization, pine for the good old days when Jesus's message was taught in a pure manner and the people were excited about the message!

The Christian fear of church bureaucracy reminds me of the same fear found in relationships - as soon as the powerful feelings of the honeymoon period are over, people start pining away for the good days when the relationship really meant something. The fact is, the honeymoon is not going to last forever - new challenges appear as the relationship matures. Some churches I been apart of meet these new challenges by trying to turn back the clock. If you are feeling stale in your relationship with Jesus, come on down to the alter and start all over again! If the church is feeling boring maybe it has lost it's saltiness - I know lets start a new church! It is akin to managing marriage problems by renewing your vows every morning and starting the relationship all over again. The result is that growth is halted. The solution is not to start over, but to move forward by accepting that churches need administration to manage large amounts of people and dealing with the problems that arise from this reality.

 

[Episkopos]

There are dangers in all organizations run by human beings - even organization guided by the Holy Spirit. A worldwide church has bureaucracy - it is unavoidable. The only way to avoid it is to start over everyday as a church organization. One of the reasons denominations are so prevalent these days is because of the fundamentalist fantasy of a pristine, Early Church model. The problem with this mindset is that we have no idea how they managed organizational problems AND Christianity has grown from a few thousand to 2 billion people. Yet, we what to share Jesus with people, but we fear the ramifications of success.

Haven't you notice the futility of many churches who, after the excitement of starting a new church and the slog of running the church with all the challenges of growth and organization, pine for the good old days when Jesus's message was taught in a pure manner and the people were excited about the message!

The Christian fear of church bureaucracy reminds me of the same fear found in relationships - as soon as the powerful feelings of the honeymoon period are over, people start pining away for the good days when the relationship really meant something. The fact is, the honeymoon is not going to last forever - new challenges appear as the relationship matures. Some churches I been apart of meet these new challenges by trying to turn back the clock. If you are feeling stale in your relationship with Jesus, come on down to the alter and start all over again! If the church is feeling boring maybe it has lost it's saltiness - I know lets start a new church! It is akin to managing marriage problems by renewing your vows every morning and starting the relationship all over again. The result is that growth is halted. The solution is not to start over, but to move forward by accepting that churches need administration to manage large amounts of people and dealing with the problems that arise from this reality.

Actually men are not to see them selves as funnels for all other men. This idea creates ecclesiastical hierarchies that are not biblical or realistic.

The NT talks of churches in the plural. A man can only know and be known by a few others. He cannot know personally everyone in the world. A leader in the church must know the people he is leading PERSONALLY. Otherwise he isn't serving them but is just another icon to be admired.

So we are not called on to Christianize the world...that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

Rather, we are called to follow Christ ourselves...then see to our families...our friends....etc.

If people would tend to their affairs there would be no escapist church ecclisiastical clubs that invent a world in the unreality of a learned mindset dispensed by the clerics hired by men.

 

[aspen]

If people would tend to their affairs there would be no escapist church ecclisiastical clubs that invent a world in the unreality of a learned mindset dispensed by the clerics hired by men.

I am not sure what you mean by 'funnels for other men' - I do know that God uses humans to spread his message through words and action. He told His disciples to go forth and cloth, feed and forgive sins.

And you are right about the dangers of hierarchical, worldwide churches. All of the dangers you mentioned would be replaced by private interpretation of scripture, relativism, radical individuality, and a tendency to slip into heresy and cult status; not to mention minister worship and congregational exclusivity.