The Falling Away In 2 Thessalonians

[stone]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The falling away is translated from the word apostasia, [from the greek manuscripts of the new testament,] from which we get the word apostacy. It is refering to falling away from the faith.American heritage dictionary. definitionapostacy--an abandonement of one's religious faith, political party or cause.It has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture or any kind of leaving of the Holy Spirit. That is simply false teaching by false prophets. The antichrist will not want Christians preparing for persecution, so false prophecy is arising in the churches pushing the pre trib rapture idea. The Christians falsely thinking they will simply leave before the trouble starts, will leave them unprepared for the future persecution of the antichrist against them.Scriptures showing antichrist will be killing Christians during his reign.Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. Some of the false prophets try to get around the definition of apostasia by saying it means depart and then they try to say that it is referring to the rapture.It makes no difference if it means depart. Paul used the word depart to refer to falling away from the faith in the latter time.Apostasia means depart; depart from the faith.1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; The false prophets, which have the big expensive ministries, and big voices in the Christian world, want people to believe in the pre trib rapture.The antichrist will not want Christians to prepare for the coming persecutions that the antichrist and his followers have prepared for them.That the rapture of the church is post tribulation is evident from Matt. 24; a clear teaching of the bible.Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[n2thelight]

Hello stoneThe majority of your post is on point,I think this part however needs further explaining.
The antichrist will not want Christians to prepare for the coming persecutions that the antichrist and his followers have prepared for them.That the rapture of the church is post tribulation is evident from Matt. 24; a clear teaching of the bible.
It is true that Christians will die durig the tribulation,but I don't feel it will be at the hands of the antichrist,but rather by those that think they are doing God a service.John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. The deception of the antichrist will be by peace.You are aware that satan himself is the antichrist right!Also,when you say rapture,are you talking about us gathering back to Christ,or are you saying we will leave to go somewhere?If it's your position that we shall leave,I would have to say you are not correct.Again the overall post is good,just thought I needed to point out a few things,hope it helped.

 

[watchman]

Yes the pretrib rapture has been created by satan to keep the church unaware and unprepared for the tribulation.

 

[Dunamite]

The church has always had apostates in it.1 John 2: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.We need to be on guard always so that we are not led astray. Now is no different than in John's time. You could argue that this is on the rise, but since we weren't around in the first century we can't make such a comparison.

 

[Christina]

QUOTE (Dunamite @ Feb 11 2009, 08:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=68991
The church has always had apostates in it.1 John 2: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.We need to be on guard always so that we are not led astray. Now is no different than in John's time. You could argue that this is on the rise, but since we weren't around in the first century we can't make such a comparison.
All types must have an Archtype the fact that there have been many Antichrist types doesnt change the fact that that there is an ANTICHRIST coming his name is Satan

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

When I first started to read the bible, and claiming I was saved it was all confusing. (about 18 y/o) I kept watching TBN and all those guys on there. I knew the gospel was hidden from those who weren't saved. I thought, man, these guys are seeing all this, but I don't see it! I was scared. I kept reading and listening to all kinds of preachers, and it seemed at that time every body with every kind of doctrine just came crawling out of the wood work, just to talk to me.I kept up reading for a while, then just gave up. It wasn't unil many years later about 5 or 6 that It was revealed to me that they were false teachers and most were antichrists. This time I was full fledged alcoholic. I continued to drink for about 5 or 6 more years and didn't really read the bible. I completely gave up on watching preachers, and absolutely felt a moral obligation to abstain from church. Despite being drunk everyday, I still thought about God alot. When I was sober, I didn't seem to hear anything from him. When I was drunk he wouldn't shut up. He just kept talking and talking. Until I heard the warning loud and clear, "You don't have much time! I will not put up with this for much longer!) I posted some of this the other day, but it's relevant for this post.I've only been reading the bible again for about maybe 2 months, if even that. I don't know if I was saved back then, but I know I am now. Aside from having absolutely no craving for alcohol, a faith has been made in me, and all kinds of revelations and knowledge has been flooding my mind and my heart. I'm afraid to express what has been revealed to me sometimes only because I'm afraid I'll be being arrogant and proud about it. Cause I feel proud as anything not of anything I have done, but I'm proud that the Lord has chosen to have mercy on me and give me salvation and knowledge and faith. I have never been this excited before in my life, and this is the first time real faith has ever been present in me.Long story short, I can absolutely understand how people can be mislead. I was there, but, I also understand this too, "To decieve the very elect, if it were possible" It's not possible to decieve a child of God with false doctrine, even if it seems like he might be lost, it's just a momentary confusion, and the Lord will bring them back those that belong to him! "no one can snatch them out of my hand"By this, I'm wondering if the "Great falling away" is actually apostasy, or if it's Saved people being mislead and going astray, but still saved and going to be called back during the tribulation, as they will see then with their own eyes, the prophesy and the things of God.

 

[Jordan]

QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 3 2009, 12:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71682
When I first started to read the bible, and claiming I was saved it was all confusing. (about 18 y/o) I kept watching TBN and all those guys on there. I knew the gospel was hidden from those who weren't saved. I thought, man, these guys are seeing all this, but I don't see it! I was scared. I kept reading and listening to all kinds of preachers, and it seemed at that time every body with every kind of doctrine just came crawling out of the wood work, just to talk to me.I kept up reading for a while, then just gave up. It wasn't unil many years later about 5 or 6 that It was revealed to me that they were false teachers and most were antichrists. This time I was full fledged alcoholic. I continued to drink for about 5 or 6 more years and didn't really read the bible. I completely gave up on watching preachers, and absolutely felt a moral obligation to abstain from church. Despite being drunk everyday, I still thought about God alot. When I was sober, I didn't seem to hear anything from him. When I was drunk he wouldn't shut up. He just kept talking and talking. Until I heard the warning loud and clear, "You don't have much time! I will not put up with this for much longer!) I posted some of this the other day, but it's relevant for this post.I've only been reading the bible again for about maybe 2 months, if even that. I don't know if I was saved back then, but I know I am now. Aside from having absolutely no craving for alcohol, a faith has been made in me, and all kinds of revelations and knowledge has been flooding my mind and my heart. I'm afraid to express what has been revealed to me sometimes only because I'm afraid I'll be being arrogant and proud about it. Cause I feel proud as anything not of anything I have done, but I'm proud that the Lord has chosen to have mercy on me and give me salvation and knowledge and faith. I have never been this excited before in my life, and this is the first time real faith has ever been present in me.Long story short, I can absolutely understand how people can be mislead. I was there, but, I also understand this too, "To decieve the very elect, if it were possible" It's not possible to decieve a child of God with false doctrine, even if it seems like he might be lost, it's just a momentary confusion, and the Lord will bring them back those that belong to him! "no one can snatch them out of my hand"By this, I'm wondering if the "Great falling away" is actually apostasy, or if it's Saved people being mislead and going astray, but still saved and going to be called back during the tribulation, as they will see then with their own eyes, the prophesy and the things of God.
In II Thessalonians 2, the "Great falling away" is 100% indeed apostasy... People who are saved can commit apostasy.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

QUOTE
In II Thessalonians 2, the "Great falling away" is 100% indeed apostasy... People who are saved can commit apostasy.
I'm still up in the air about this. I've read scriptures that suggest both. I'm sure there's a context that I'm not considering. I can see how people can get mislead, but Honestly I can't imagine that it would be possible for people to fall away.Jesus said, "I will not loose any the father has given me" Later I read, "for those who remain in the Lord"In the same sense, "many are called but few are chosen""many search for the way but few there are that find it"I did go to a certain website where Atheists are trying to refute the existence of God. Many on that forum were former believers. They knew the words of the bible quite well. So, if infact they were saved at one point then apostasy is true. If infact that they mearly believed and made nothing more than an outward show, then they are not apostacy.(at least in the context that we're speaking, as in falling away after being saved) Even to go from one faith to another would be apostasy even if it just involved an outward study of the "religion" itself.I think you can Believe and try to have works, but not have faith, and you can have faith and not have works. Both lead to failure, and in all technicality of the definition of the word, both would be able to apostasize. So, they would turn away from the bible in their frustrations of not succeeding in what they thought they should be seeing. Or find something that appeals to the desire of their flesh, which could be as simple as a relief from the feeling of condemnation they put on themselves by not truely being given to Christ. They haven't mixed blood with water. Blood=flesh as in works. Water=Faith as in Spirit.Careful consideration needs to be made on this issue. At this time I have no revelations of this. I asked God about the whole deal from predestination vs free will point of view, all I was told was, "Why are you still trying to understand?" That's been pretty much it.I'm not entirely sure if I believe the Calvanist or Arminian or what ever view of OSAS. Apparently that conversation has been blocked on another post.

 

[[email protected]]

The great apostacy is upon us. Once considered to be the heart of Christendom, Europe is now so Godless that missionary groups consider that continent more important than Africa or China. In point of fact, some missions have been sent from the Dark Continent to Europe and America. In the United States, church growth has become a dead issue. The number of persons becoming saved is 5% or less. Most 'growth' is due to Christians moving from one church to another. Most churches don't remove missing members from their rolls and often list more members on the books than actually attend. Church programs often include social ministries and growth ministries rather than evangelism. While important, social programs do not add to the number of saved souls. Growth ministries generally do not work and serve only to add to the tendency of Christian communities to become ingrown and introverted. Islam is the most rapidly growing international religion on the planet and the projected figures for its expansion are staggering. The Qur'an has stated that Islam is the traditional lethal enemy of Jews and Christians; the "people of the book". These are dark days for Christendom, but they are also days of hope for such a situation was predicted long ago. When we see these things begin to happen, we are to look up and rejoice for our redemption is very near.

 

[Christina]

The Bible is full of stories of Apostacy and falling away we need only look at Judas a beloved apostels of Jesus himself ..Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? These are ministers and priests that cast out devils in Lords name just watch your T.V. set Unbelievers do not cast out demons in the name of Christ. Believers do. Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The only ones who its not possiable to deceive is the Elect .... But not everyone is Not of the Elect the Elect are those foreknown Fore chosen by God before they were even born to to specific things God will call on them to do ... Paul is a good Example ...He persucuted Christians until God called on him... Job is another good example ... God foreknew these Elect ... But salvation is open to all ... And anyone who overcomes until the End will get the same reward as the Elect ... But what of all those people who were blindly lead astray by false teachers/preachers those that loved the Lord but just fell to short to make it to the End. What of those that are lived a moral life (followed the commandments for the most part.. were good of heart but never quite got around to being baptised and confessing their belief...What of those who were decent/good people but raised from birth in a false religion never really hearing the Words of Christ.. God is fair would it be fair to send all these to hell ?. the answer is NO NO NO so then what becomes of them ?This is the exact reason there is a 1000 year millieum period it is for these people in fact it is will be the majority of people. The Elect w/the overcomers ....and the down right evil,and those that actively work against God and for Satan are the two minority Groups ........ Most the rest of the world falls in the middle someplace So what of this millieum period of 1000 years what happens .... God tells us exactly ... If we listen to him instead of the babble of men...The Elect w/the overcomers .. reign and rule with Christ (Rev.20:6)Satan and the evil are bound for a 1000 years (Rev. 20:3)So what of the rest they will be taught the truth of the Lord ALL will be taught truth Isa 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children. This is what the millieum is for a time of teaching That is why there is no judgement for the masses until after the Millieum that is why Satan is loosed again after the 1000 years to test the ones who were taught during the millieum Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. This moment is the tribulation period Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. Isa 54:9 For this [is as] the waters of Noah unto me: for [as] I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. This is the 7th trump the coming of the Lord to begin the millieum Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, [and] not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. Isa 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. Isa 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.

 

[dan p]

QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 7 2009, 03:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72030
The Bible is full of stories of Apostacy and falling away we need only look at Judas a beloved apostels of Jesus himself ..Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? These are ministers and priests that cast out devils in Lords name just watch your T.V. set Unbelievers do not cast out demons in the name of Christ. Believers do. Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The only ones who its not possiable to deceive is the Elect .... But not everyone is Not of the Elect the Elect are those foreknown Fore chosen by God before they were even born to to specific things God will call on them to do ... Paul is a good Example ...He persucuted Christians until God called on him... Job is another good example ... God foreknew these Elect ... But salvation is open to all ... And anyone who overcomes until the End will get the same reward as the Elect ... But what of all those people who were blindly lead astray by false teachers/preachers those that loved the Lord but just fell to short to make it to the End. What of those that are lived a moral life (followed the commandments for the most part.. were good of heart but never quite got around to being baptised and confessing their belief...What of those who were decent/good people but raised from birth in a false religion never really hearing the Words of Christ.. God is fair would it be fair to send all these to hell ?. the answer is NO NO NO so then what becomes of them ?This is the exact reason there is a 1000 year millieum period it is for these people in fact it is will be the majority of people. The Elect w/the overcomers ....and the down right evil,and those that actively work against God and for Satan are the two minority Groups ........ Most the rest of the world falls in the middle someplace So what of this millieum period of 1000 years what happens .... God tells us exactly ... If we listen to him instead of the babble of men...The Elect w/the overcomers .. reign and rule with Christ (Rev.20:6)Satan and the evil are bound for a 1000 years (Rev. 20:3)So what of the rest they will be taught the truth of the Lord ALL will be taught truth Isa 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children. This is what the millieum is for a time of teaching That is why there is no judgement for the masses until after the Millieum that is why Satan is loosed again after the 1000 years to test the ones who were taught during the millieum Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. This moment is the tribulation period Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. Isa 54:9 For this [is as] the waters of Noah unto me: for [as] I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. This is the 7th trump the coming of the Lord to begin the millieum Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, [and] not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. Isa 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. Isa 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.
Hi to all , and I take a different view of 2 Thess 2:3 .1) In v1 , Paul is talking about the COMING of the Lord .2) Paul is NOT talking about losing Faith in v1 .3) And not Only about the Coming , But , even our GATHERING together unto Him . Still not talking about losing Faith or Apostasy .4) In v 2 they were being frightened , shaken in Mind , nor by spirit ( Not the Holy Spirit ) Nor by spurious Letter as from me ( Paul ) 5) Why were they frightened, and Troubled ?6) Because they thought that THE Day of Christ was here , or that they would experience the Tribulation , that's WHY . Paul is NOT talking about " falling away " from the faith , sorry .7) V3 , THIS TO ME is A LITERAL Translation , No one should throughly deceive you in not one way because except the Departure should come first , and the man of sin should be revealed , the son of destruction .8) " Falling Alway " is from the Greek word APOSTASIA , and means a defection , revolt , or a departure . It is used 2 in the New Testament , ( Acts 21:21 ; 2 Thess 2:3 ) 9) This noun is usally Transliteralted into English as " APOSTASY " BY OPPONENTS of the Rapture Truth . 10) That is wrong because TRANSLITERATION is not the way to find out what a word means .11) The word APOSTASIA , 12) The word APOSTASY and you will notice that dropped the letters IA AND then they added the letter Y , AND say that it is a translation , when in FACT it is a Transliteralation .13) There are many more words that are Transliteralted , like the word , angel , apostle , Israel , Pentcost , Baptism , just to mention a few .14) The meaning of Departure fits in the context , and besides this , they is no idea in 2 Thess 2:3 , of a revolt, or a defection from those in authority , which meanins non-rapturists used to try to refute the teaching of the rapture. 15) It is important to know that the man of sin , the son of perdition , will not be revealed until AFTER the Rapture . 16) This Departure of the Body of Christ from earth is to take place FIRST and then God's Kingdom program of unfulfilled prophecy centered in Israel will take center stage .

 

[Christina]

Although my post was made to whitknuckle to help with his understanding the saved not about 2 Thess. I will happy to reply to your postThe problem I see with your view is you can not change the tense of subject and object in the middle ... 2 Thess was written to correct the error made by the church of Thess. in 1 Thess. They were confused thinking the Lord had come thus wondered where the dead were ... So Paul is setting them straight the subject 2 Thess ..The subject The gathering to our Lord (tense future) and what must occur shortly before the gathering at his coming which we know is future ..... You can not then go and change a verse here and there in the middle ....back to present tense.. The gathering is future and these things will occur and there is No gathering until the 7th and last trump ... Christ returns once we are gathered once at the End after the son of Perdition after the falling away. Like it or not The Bible teaches a first and a second coming period ... No secret coming.. no thrid coming .... One second coming one gathering to him when he comes ... 7th trump the last trump ...

 

[tomwebster]

QUOTE (dan p @ Apr 9 2009, 03:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72189
...8) " Falling Alway " is from the Greek word APOSTASIA , and means a defection , revolt , or a departure . It is used 2 in the New Testament , ( Acts 21:21 ; 2 Thess 2:3 ) ...
I think you are beyond help, Dan. What do you think it would be to "fall away?" Do you think someone is just going to fall off a table or down some stairs? Do be so foolish. What does the word apostasy? The renunciation of a religious belief, you know like falling away! What is it to "a defection , revolt , or a departure?" Come on wake up!

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I still keep thinking, "To decieve the very elect if it were possible", there's something more to this, than we're seeing. It's noticeable. Let's compare something, if we can.>American King James Version --------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest to all men, as their's also was.I've often thought about this. I've never related apostasy to the "falling away". I'm not going to debate what apostasy is, or if it's possible. I'm more interesting in seeing if the "falling away" might be as simple as the way the above verse is stated.It seems to me we have, "and knowledge will increase" "Proud boasters, lovers of selves" "because of the increase of wickedness of those days the love of many will grow cold"Later on, the bible talks about the Beast decieving "even the elect, if it were possible".I think the falling away seems to deal more with people falling away from just good judgement and morals, and callousing the conscience that God gave them. There was a time when most humans sought after the Lord, to understand "A God", and to long for a relationship with our Creator, whoever they even thought he was.Now, people are abandoning all search for "A God". Millions have totaly abandoned the very Idea of a God or a Creator. They've wandered off to walk after their flesh because they just don't care anymore. Most just simply don't want "religion".This is how I've always viewed the falling away. PS. No debating the silly women part of the above scripture.

 

[Christina]

Silly women ????? are there any

Now you are correct to a point falling away can obviously can have differnt degrees of meanings if one just does one thing you mentioned above perhaps they are begining to fall away ... Some have fallen away and come back ... The difference here in 2 Thess. is the subject of the chapter rightly diving the Word what is the subject we are talking about ?1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; This falling away is tied to the man of sin and the son of perdition (this is Antichrist)This falling away has to do with following a fake christ committing spiritual adultry4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. There is only one who ever dared think he should be above God that is Satan (Isa.14:13 -14) This is why this falling away is called the Great apostacy ... There will be little to know time for coming back for those who follow Antichrist. Now that we have our subject straight we can look futher you ask about the Elect in Mat 24:24 again what is the subject of this chapter ? Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? So you see we have basically the same subject ... the End times false prophets, preceeding events of the 2nd coming ... Who is the false prophet of the End times Antichrist ...I hope you are seeing how we divide the Word here yes there is normal falling away through out time , yes there have been many false prophets throughout time but God is setting the Subject Here for us this is a specific time period with a specific set of events we are told. Thats why we must pay attention to subjects of a chapter and verse... Now we know this is a paticular falling away a great apostacy... following a false christ (prophet) that we know is a man of sin that wanted to be above God i.e. Satan ... Now when all the pieces of this End of the World the 2nd coming and our gathering are put together we come out with an entire picture of what will occur ...

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I still keep thinking about, "to decieve the very elect if that were possible". That's the same as you keep talkin about with the wheat and the tares. The same that Paul was talking about with the factions. The same reason he says, that those who go away from us were never of God. I think it's all in context. A true believer cannot be decieved as a permanent deal. We can be decieved to an extent, but it's not something that would destroy our salvation.To say the Lord would let someone who is saved become decieved, is dangerous. He says, he'll send a strong delusion to those who aren't saved, so as to cause them to believe the "miricles" of the Beast.

 

[tomwebster]

QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 10 2009, 12:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72243
I still keep thinking about, "to decieve the very elect if that were possible". That's the same as you keep talkin about with the wheat and the tares. The same that Paul was talking about with the factions. The same reason he says, that those who go away from us were never of God. I think it's all in context. A true believer cannot be decieved as a permanent deal. We can be decieved to an extent, but it's not something that would destroy our salvation.To say the Lord would let someone who is saved become decieved, is dangerous. He says, he'll send a strong delusion to those who aren't saved, so as to cause them to believe the "miricles" of the Beast.
You keep believing that way, WK, and see what happens. Satan all ready has the unsaved, they don't need to be deceived, they are all ready deluded, they belong to Satan. Satan wants those that love God to turn away and love him instead. If they are deceived by Satan, and worship Satan it's because they have not studied the letter God wrote to them. They don't know the true Christ.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 10 2009, 02:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72244
You keep believing that way, WK, and see what happens. Satan all ready has the unsaved, they don't need to be deceived, they are all ready deluded, they belong to Satan. Satan wants those that love God to turn away and love him instead. If they are deceived by Satan, and worship Satan it's because they have not studied the letter God wrote to them. They don't know the true Christ.
You've got to be kidding me. I've suffered so manythings on this board so far. Please explain to me, how you think that Christians are in danger of being decieved, when the bible clearly says that it's not possible. If we're saved, we read the word of God, and God told us what was going to go on and his Spirit testifies to us, and confirms in us the Word of God himself. God says he will send strong delusions that they not us will believe.Matthew 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[tomwebster]

QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 10 2009, 01:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72251
You've got to be kidding me. I've suffered so manythings on this board so far. Please explain to me, how you think that Christians are in danger of being decieved, when the bible clearly says that it's not possible. ...
No, you are going to need to go back and read what I have written in the past about this subject. I'm not re-writing it for you.

 

[Christina]

QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 9 2009, 10:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72243
I still keep thinking about, "to decieve the very elect if that were possible". That's the same as you keep talkin about with the wheat and the tares. The same that Paul was talking about with the factions. The same reason he says, that those who go away from us were never of God. I think it's all in context. A true believer cannot be decieved as a permanent deal. We can be decieved to an extent, but it's not something that would destroy our salvation.To say the Lord would let someone who is saved become decieved, is dangerous. He says, he'll send a strong delusion to those who aren't saved, so as to cause them to believe the "miricles" of the Beast.
Great conversation by the way whiteknuckle keep pushing it until you fully understand God doesn't say that he says he will not allow the Elect to be fooled ...because he will shorten the time to keep from happening IF IF it were possible(god will make sure its not possible) Gods shortens the time so this does not happen ..but your are missing the main point of this God is warning us that the DELUSION will be so great .... That IF it were possible even the very Elect would be fooled. The Elect are not just believers they are the very chosen of God to fight against Antichrist ... Yet this DELUSION WILL BE SO GREAT THAT NOT ONLY THE ENTIRE WORLD BUT EVEN HIS VERY CHOSEN COULD IF HE ALLOWED BE FOOLED ...God will not allow it ...but that doesnt change the fact that this DELUSION will like nothing man has ever witnessed .... Another reason I say this is not just some human person claiming he is a messiah ... This is something so great that if we do not prepare our minds with Gods truth before we are will be in danger of being taken in.