The Study and Interpret the Bible
- Thread starter AW Bowman
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This is really a perplexing situation, and it is a problem that is growing in size. The entire body of Christ is under attack worldwide. Some of the attacks are overt, such as you can see in Asia and the Middle East. Here in the West it's more subtle, it consist of deception and lies, as well as overt actions.
Back when I was young and foolish, I engaged in such debates. Of course no one ever change their their positions or their opinions. That is when I learned a hard lesson of simply stating what I believe and why I believe it and left it at that. Folks could either accept or reject, and in the exchange. I sometimes actually learn something, but not usually what the opponent was expecting for me to learn. For me, debates are a waste of effort, energy and time. I would rather spend these resources in Bible study. However, as it has happened on this thread, I have been asked some questions. I really try to respond and address those questions. When folks disagree with me I can accept that, and I will listen to their rebuttal and evaluate it. If it has biblical value I will certainly consider it, if not, I reject it and go on with my life.
I hope that is not true! To take that position is to assume a Christ-like opinion of themselves. Not even the apostle Paul claimed such a position for himself. I am confident that if pressed on this point. Most, if not all, would reject it. However, it may very well be their general attitude towards others. Even this, is most unfortunate.
Johann
Well-Known Member
You have responded well Mr. Bowman.
I have read your article..
Three and One?
The Hebrews have never believed in a trinity the way the Western world does. They have always believed that there is only one God with a triune nature, and man was created in that image. The Hebrews have recited the prayer of "sh'ma" (pronounced she-ma) every day for centuries now, and it comes in part from Deut. 6:4, "Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." (KJV)
This is the Hebrew text, It reads like this if we substitute our alphabet for the Hebrew symbols, "sh'ma yisrael YHVH eloheinu YHVH ekhad."
Well thought out, especially the last part...
Some Trinitarians attempt to unravel the rope into three separate strands, and of course, it is no longer a rope. Some Oneness believers attempt to coil the rope too tightly and it becomes kinked and twisted. Neither position is supported by history or scripture.
AW
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
1Co 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1Co 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
Shalom to you and family
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Most definitely true Mr. Bowman and like you, I was shocked.
Be prepared for more heteros, strange doctrines.
J.
@Johann In my lifetime I have attended most Trinitarian and three Oneness denominations, preached and/or taught in most of them. As a result I came to a soul satisfying conclusion, i.e. no one alive knows the true composition of God's existence. Nor can they adequately explain what it is they believe concerning God's composition.
We do know that we are made in the image ( צֶלֶם tselem, n-m) and likeness (דְּמוּת dmuwth n-f.) of God. We also know that we, as humans, are created with three elements of existence, a body, soul, and a spirit (Heb 10:5). Remove any one of these elements - we're dead! Now, can anyone explain how our three elements, that are required for life, are united into forming a single, unique human beaning, different from all others? We live with these three elements 24/7/365. If we cannot explain our own existence, how can we expect to comprehend God's existence? The Hebrews have 72 names for His different attributes and/or manifestations toward mankind. In their mystical writings (Zohar, Vol 2: pg 43; Vol 3, pg 288) they express God's plurality as follows, "The Ancient One is revealed in three heads 'which are united into one' ... 'described as being three' ... 'But how can three names be one? ... (This) can only be known by revelation of the Holy Spirit'". So, can God be fully known? My answer is no. For we are restricted to knowing only three of the possible elements of existence of an infinite God, via the manifestations He chose to disclose to His creation.
In scripture we are directed to seek the knowledge of God, and to actually come to know Him, even to know His heart. Even so, we are warned that in this lifetime we can never come to actually understand Him, or even to fully know Him. It is a lifelong process of seeking His face.
So, until someone can explain how we are created, body, soul and spirit, merged into a single unique individual, I am really not very interested in their intellectual guesses concerning God's composition of existence. Come to think of it, as professing disciples of Christ, we now have two spirits residing within us, ours and the Holy Spirit. That gives us four elements of existence.
We do know that we are made in the image ( צֶלֶם tselem, n-m) and likeness (דְּמוּת dmuwth n-f.) of God. We also know that we, as humans, are created with three elements of existence, a body, soul, and a spirit (Heb 10:5). Remove any one of these elements - we're dead! Now, can anyone explain how our three elements, that are required for life, are united into forming a single, unique human beaning, different from all others? We live with these three elements 24/7/365. If we cannot explain our own existence, how can we expect to comprehend God's existence? The Hebrews have 72 names for His different attributes and/or manifestations toward mankind. In their mystical writings (Zohar, Vol 2: pg 43; Vol 3, pg 288) they express God's plurality as follows, "The Ancient One is revealed in three heads 'which are united into one' ... 'described as being three' ... 'But how can three names be one? ... (This) can only be known by revelation of the Holy Spirit'". So, can God be fully known? My answer is no. For we are restricted to knowing only three of the possible elements of existence of an infinite God, via the manifestations He chose to disclose to His creation.
In scripture we are directed to seek the knowledge of God, and to actually come to know Him, even to know His heart. Even so, we are warned that in this lifetime we can never come to actually understand Him, or even to fully know Him. It is a lifelong process of seeking His face.
So, until someone can explain how we are created, body, soul and spirit, merged into a single unique individual, I am really not very interested in their intellectual guesses concerning God's composition of existence. Come to think of it, as professing disciples of Christ, we now have two spirits residing within us, ours and the Holy Spirit. That gives us four elements of existence.
There are some who defend this of themselves vigorously, and even to the point of vilifying others who question it.
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
I fully concur Mr. Bowman and no, I don't think no one can exegete how we are created, basar, nefesh and pneuma, in His tzelem and demut, merged into a single unique individual.
As far as to yada YHVH dia Y'howshuwa HaMashiach ev/en the Ruach haKodesh I concur, we cannot fully epignosen but in part.
Like you, I am not fully interested in intellectual jargon and sophomoric sophistry and frivolous bantering from the lolling sect-s...
Jas 2:19 So you're impressed with yourselves that with your emunah you can recite the kri'at Shema, nu? O you do so well...why, even the shedim have your da'as and emunah! But they shudder! [DEVARIM 6:4]
OJB
I am not here to "exegete" the Triune theiotes Mr. Bowman but am deeply concerned that our Lord Christ Jesus is being reduced to a mere man and man deified as you will soon witness for yourself.
2Co 1:12 For our glorying is in this: the edut (testimony) of our matzpun (conscience) [MJ 13:18] is that without remiyah (guile, fraud, deceit) and with lev tahor ("pure heart" TEHILLIM 51:12) with the sincerity of Hashem [2C 2:17] and not in the "chochmah" of the basar [1C 1:17] but in the Chen v'Chesed of Hashem, we conducted ourselves in the Olam Hazeh, and more especially toward you.
2Co 1:13 For we write nothing so shver (complex) to you that you cannot read and have binah (understanding), and I have tikvah that you will have da'as shlemah until HaKetz,
OJB
I am a simpleton, Mr. Bowman and English is not my first language, sorry to disappoint you in rhetoric's, not my character/nature.
As to the four elements of existence...I can only let the scriptures speak
Eph 3:18 That you may be able to have binah, together with all the Kadoshim, what is the breadth and length and height and depth [IYOV 11:8,9; TEHILLIM 103:11]
Eph 3:19 And to have da'as of the ahavah of Moshiach, which ahavah surpasses da'as, in order that you may be filled to all the melo (plentitude) of Hashem.
OJB.
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Which passeth knowledge (τὴν ὑπερβάλλουσαν τῆς γνώσεως).
Which surpasses mere knowledge without the experience of love. Note the play on the words know and knowledge.
That ye might be filled with all the fullness of God (ἵνα πληρωθῆτε εἰς πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ θεοῦ)
Note the recurrence of that; that He would grant you; that ye may be strong; that ye may be filled. With is better rendered unto, to the measure or standard of. Fullness of God is the fullness which God imparts through the dwelling of Christ in the heart; Christ, in whom the Father was pleased that all the fullness should dwell (Col_1:19), and in whom dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead (Col_2:9).
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;.....
Might be partakers (γένησθε κοινωνοὶ)
Rev., more correctly, may become, conveying the idea of a growth. See note on κοινωνὸς, partaker, 1Pe_5:1; and compare Heb_12:10.
Vincent
Of the divine nature (theias phuseōs). This phrase, like to theion in Act_17:29, “belongs rather to Hellenism than to the Bible” (Bigg). It is a Stoic phrase, but not with the Stoic meaning. Peter is referring to the new birth as 1Pe_1:23 (anagegennēmenoi). The same phrase occurs in an inscription possibly under the influence of Mithraism (Moulton and Milligan’s Vocabulary).
Lastly, Mr. Bowman, we are to dokimazo the pneumatoi and not ekpeiradzo...which is happening here on this platform and...
Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the basar [i.e., unregenerate] but in the Ruach Hakodesh, assuming that the Ruach Hakodesh of Hashem does indeed dwell in you--if anyone does not have the Ruach HaMoshiach, that person does not belong to Moshiach.
No Holy Spirit, unregenerate, not belonging to Christ and even the unregenerate can quote scripture all they like...
Luk 6:44 For each etz by its own pri will be known. For not from thorns do they gather figs nor from a thorn bush do they pick grapes.
OJB
Mat_10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Three Imperatives in one verse Mr. Bowman
Shalom
J.
Like you, English in not my first language! My first and most fluent language is Infantile Gibberish. I have spoken it continually for well over 80 years.
I am not here to "exegete" the Triune theiotes Mr. Bowman but am deeply concerned that our Lord Christ Jesus is being reduced to a mere man and man deified as you will soon witness for yourself.
Alas, this too is to be expected. That also means that they will fined it very difficult to obey the universal instructions He mandated for every disciple of His. Even professing Christian don't know, understand and obey very many of His instructions/commandments. /sigh/ I have an extended teaching on that subject too - for another thread.
Shalom Aleichem
@MatthewG: Annihilation or Hurt? <- Question about the Lake of Fire.
I cannot give a definitive answer to your question. The lake of fire can be either reality or a metaphysical expression. Whichever it may be, I am convinced that it will be a most unpleasant experience.
I cannot give a definitive answer to your question. The lake of fire can be either reality or a metaphysical expression. Whichever it may be, I am convinced that it will be a most unpleasant experience.
Going back to the kinds and types of filters that we bring to our study of the Bible that need to be addressed before starting or continuing in a Bible study. Reference page 5, Post number 90 and its attachment, on this thread.
In part 1 of 3, the first bias that we bring to our studies is our personality type. We might be an extrovert or an introvert, or we might come to our studies with love in our heart are with anger, or even as a bipolar individual, and of course we have the analytical person and the "humanities" directed individual. Within all of these extremes, and the mixing of them we might well find ourselves. Although I listed a number of extreme personality types, there are more. Most of us will fall somewhere in one of these, but not necessarily at the extreme.
So what are we to do with all of these different mindsets? First, relax. Second, pray. Third, attempt to come to your studies with a calm attitude. Fourth, read each word of the passage/subject you are studying, and meditate on them. Take your time, this is not the time or place to practice your speed reading skills.
So, ask yourself what exactly is my personality type, and which type(s) do I fluctuate to and from or through, if any. This is now the time to exercise self-control.
In part 1 of 3, the first bias that we bring to our studies is our personality type. We might be an extrovert or an introvert, or we might come to our studies with love in our heart are with anger, or even as a bipolar individual, and of course we have the analytical person and the "humanities" directed individual. Within all of these extremes, and the mixing of them we might well find ourselves. Although I listed a number of extreme personality types, there are more. Most of us will fall somewhere in one of these, but not necessarily at the extreme.
So what are we to do with all of these different mindsets? First, relax. Second, pray. Third, attempt to come to your studies with a calm attitude. Fourth, read each word of the passage/subject you are studying, and meditate on them. Take your time, this is not the time or place to practice your speed reading skills.
So, ask yourself what exactly is my personality type, and which type(s) do I fluctuate to and from or through, if any. This is now the time to exercise self-control.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
You don’t speak for me.
I bring no filters.
I let the word filter out impurities in me.
And everyone should have the same attitude.
“Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.” (Psalms 119:9)
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
@AW Bowman
The all-knowing God never warned us of the things you are warning us of.
No where in the word of truth are we told about “personality types” and how to over come this so-called “problem”.
This whole thread is just mere busywork and distraction from the simplicity in reading the scriptures which alone does this:
“…and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days...” (Deuteronomy 17:19-20)
“…the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
There are many Bible students and not enough obedient readers.
The all-knowing God never warned us of the things you are warning us of.
No where in the word of truth are we told about “personality types” and how to over come this so-called “problem”.
This whole thread is just mere busywork and distraction from the simplicity in reading the scriptures which alone does this:
“…and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days...” (Deuteronomy 17:19-20)
“…the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
There are many Bible students and not enough obedient readers.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Great.
No scriptural advice from an experienced minister?
Typical “minister” of these times…
