The Wisdom of Sirach/Ecclesiasticus

[DuckieLady]

I read other books from time to time.

Recently, I've looked into the Book of Sirach, and I already know that it isn't considered the inspired word of God, it says it is not the inspired word.

What it is is "natural theology." It came from experience. It is just wisdom about regular life about everything from "don't pick up doing too many things or you'll get nothing done" to proper dinner manners.

Your Amish have it, many of your Mennonites have it, and your pilgrims had it, and having been reading it, I felt sort of ripped off because there are so many parts where I thought to myself "I could have used that."

Albeit, a few verses here and there, I think I could do without, but some things you have to think with your own brain on.

Just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

Edit: I really titled this wrong.

Oh well nothing can be done about it now

 

[Hidden In Him]

I read other books from time to time.

Recently, I've looked into the Book of Sirach, and I already know that it isn't considered the inspired word of God, it says it is not the inspired word.

What it is is "natural theology." It came from experience. It is just wisdom about regular life about everything from "don't pick up doing too many things or you'll get nothing done" to proper dinner manners.

Your Amish have it, many of your Mennonites have it, and your pilgrims had it, and having been reading it, I felt sort of ripped off because there are so many parts where I thought to myself "I could have used that."

Albeit, a few verses here and there, I think I could do without, but some things you have to think with your own brain on.

Just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

Edit: I really titled this wrong.

Oh well nothing can be done about it now

Fluffy, the more you get into studying scripture from a more scholarly perspective, the less frightened you'll become about what might be termed "extra-biblical" literature. The New Testament writers often made reference to Jewish traditions that cannot be found in scripture aside from very short, off-hand references to them, so in order to accurately understand what is said in scripture itself you eventually have to go outside the Bible anyway. Jude cited the Book of Enoch, for example, which likewise contains a few verses that appear suspect (although on closer analysis, this is because of corruptions in the common text). But he also made reference to the story of Moses' burial, and how Micheal rebuked Satan during it. Nowhere explained in scripture. It can only be found by studying Jewish traditions on the subject.

So the same rule applies to not being frightened away by "Catholic" books of the Bible. The books of Maccabees are in large part merely historical accounts, with not really a ton to fear about that other than that they might be a bit too fanciful or embellished sometimes. I have also seen verses here and there that pre-shadow New Testament teachings, such as on the armor of God for instance. So I liken studying such material to studying the heavenly visions. Will I ever take them as "holy writ" and bet my soul on them? No. But I benefit from them greatly nonetheless. The ones who get all spooked about such things are usually the highly superstitious types who have not done a lot of studying on their own, and are fearful that they might get "contaminated" by the slightest half-truths if they are not careful.

Just keep the accepted cannon as your highest authority. If something agrees with it, or doesn't contradict it in any way, then consider it thoughtfully, and pray to God that He gives you more wisdom about it. You may find it actually is in scripture if you do that. If it directly contradicts something stated in scripture, consider that a red flag and set it aside. Pretty much as simple as that.

 

[Rita]

I tend to think that God can inspire us through many things, including the writings of others. I must admit that I brought a bible on my e reader years ago with many of the extra books in, to date I have never read them. I must admit that I have not heard of the book you mentioned, I don’t know if it’s in that bible or not.
I do tend to stick with those in scripture, but for me I don’t feel inspired to read other writings. My son has recently brought the book of Enoch …….but still hasn’t read it !
Personally if you pull some good things from the book you mentioned, wisdom, then there is nothing wrong if it speaks to you.
I have often wondered about the books that were not included, are we conditioned to believe that they are irrelevant. Many people are inspired in their writings……..
Rita

 

[farouk]

The so called Deuterocanonical books are not part of inspired Scripture.

 

[DuckieLady]

I'm gonna have to reread these sometime tomorrow... I'll catch up, I promise.

Washer didn't spin properly, water everywhere, locked myself out, had to talk to the manager, and then explain, and the mopped the laundry room, waited hours for clothes to not dry.

I am trying to comprehend but I am out of it right now

 

[Rita]

I'm gonna have to reread these sometime tomorrow... I'll catch up, I promise.

Washer didn't spin properly, water everywhere, locked myself out, had to talk to the manager, and then explain, and the mopped the laundry room, waited hours for clothes to not dry.

I am trying to comprehend but I am out of it right now

Oh so sorry , I hate when things like that happen…………

 

[Abaxvahl]

I read other books from time to time.

Recently, I've looked into the Book of Sirach, and I already know that it isn't considered the inspired word of God, it says it is not the inspired word.

What it is is "natural theology." It came from experience. It is just wisdom about regular life about everything from "don't pick up doing too many things or you'll get nothing done" to proper dinner manners.

Your Amish have it, many of your Mennonites have it, and your pilgrims had it, and having been reading it, I felt sort of ripped off because there are so many parts where I thought to myself "I could have used that."

Albeit, a few verses here and there, I think I could do without, but some things you have to think with your own brain on.

Just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

Edit: I really titled this wrong.

Oh well nothing can be done about it now

I consider it inspired Scripture and I am not sure where you think it denies inspiration for itself. Other than that it is one of my favorite books of the Wisdom Literature in Scripture and contains a prayer I say often: "O Lord, Father and God of my life, give me not a proud look. Turn away concupiscence from me. Let not the greediness of the belly nor lust of the flesh take hold of me; and give me not over into an impudent mind."

As with the other Wisdom literature it should be read often and meditated on, and added to that frequent prayers for wisdom from God, who is gracious and gives it generously.

 

[DuckieLady]

Oh so sorry , I hate when things like that happen…………

Me too! I am going to try and pull it together and see if I can.. If I don't make sense, I apologize. Lol

@Hidden In Him I agree. Although I have to review more about the Book of Enoch. From what I know of it, we no longer have the original book but a piece from Africa found in the 1700s that was a work of fiction inspired by pieces from the original, but I could have that entire story confused so definitely don't listen to me. These things you have to look ridiculously deep into. Information all over the place.

If you get the app "Lost Books of the Bible" there are a lot on there. I believe recommend The Gospel of Nicodemus, even if you consider it a work of fiction. The people who Jesus healed back him up during his trial.

In letters to Herod and Pilate, you can see them complaining about the "problem" with the earthquake, eclipse, and the raising of the dead, and a lot more on Herod that I won't spoil. Paul's letters are a lot of banter back and forth. Day to day stuff. Interesting, but wouldn't have made sense to add to the Bible.

I've read a lot of these but I haven't told people.. because I expected pitchforks lol

 

[DuckieLady]

I tend to think that God can inspire us through many things, including the writings of others. I must admit that I brought a bible on my e reader years ago with many of the extra books in, to date I have never read them. I must admit that I have not heard of the book you mentioned, I don’t know if it’s in that bible or not.
I do tend to stick with those in scripture, but for me I don’t feel inspired to read other writings. My son has recently brought the book of Enoch …….but still hasn’t read it !
Personally if you pull some good things from the book you mentioned, wisdom, then there is nothing wrong if it speaks to you.
I have often wondered about the books that were not included, are we conditioned to believe that they are irrelevant. Many people are inspired in their writings……..
Rita

Book of Sirach existed before Jesus time and it WAS part of the Bible, but it was later removed from the Bible by the protestants. Now I like Sirach, but I don't agree with Wisdom of Solomon. Sometimes people confuse the two.

Martin Luther wanted to remove other books, too, including Hebrews and James, because they were not based off of salvation by faith alone.

For myself, I need to study deeper into evidence history before I consider any of it to be totally true but I am a history lover and there have been a few times where something felt clear to me from reading Sirach. Like a grandparents wisdom, I suppose.

 

[DuckieLady]

I consider it inspired Scripture and I am not sure where you think it denies inspiration for itself. Other than that it is one of my favorite books of the Wisdom Literature in Scripture and contains a prayer I say often: "O Lord, Father and God of my life, give me not a proud look. Turn away concupiscence from me. Let not the greediness of the belly nor lust of the flesh take hold of me; and give me not over into an impudent mind."

As with the other Wisdom literature it should be read often and meditated on, and added to that frequent prayers for wisdom from God, who is gracious and gives it generously.

I like it a lot. To answer your question, if you read the introduction in Sirach it kind of suggests that it is based off of natural experiences. Which is why it wasn't included, from what I understand.

I still find it necessary and I disagree with the removal... Very beautiful verse, by the way.

Its interesting, too, that much like Proverbs, in the Book of Sirach wisdom is portrayed as a woman.

Sirach 4:11-12

Wisdom takes care of those who look for her; she raises them to greatness. Loving her is loving life itself; rising early to look for her is pure joy.

 

[Ancient]

These books (Apocrypha) were part of the scriptures in the 1st century. Consider why were they part of the Septuagint? Why were they in every translation up until and including the 1611 KJV? Even found in translations far past this date. Who removed then and declared they were not inspired? By what authority are they able to make these decisions? I don't really care about what denominations they are from either. The fact is it is evident that they were part of the scriptures in the days of our Messiah Yeshua. I have read most of it and have not read anything that contradicts the rest of the Bible if anything in my experience it adds to the "normal Bible"
These books were part of Bibles for centuries maybe even a thousand years before someone decided to take them out. So, when people go on about being inspired or canonized they were obviously accepted well before the 1611 KJV as this original KLV included them.
There are many theories about why they were taken out. This does not matter to me as again they were accepted and read in the days of our Messiah. The best references we have to this is the Septuagint which was written by 70 Rabbis hence the Greek name meaning 70. The dead sea scrolls also testify to them as part of the scriptures of the day.
You will find most objections are from people bogged down in denominational doctrines of men, and most people can't get out of their small denominational box theology. I know as I was once one of these people until Yahweh broke me out of these man made religious boxes. Halleluyah!
Go for it! Get into them and be Blessed by them who knows you might learn something.

Blessing and Shalom

 

[Rita]

Book of Sirach existed before Jesus time and it WAS part of the Bible, but it was later removed from the Bible by the protestants. Now I like Sirach, but I don't agree with Wisdom of Solomon. Sometimes people confuse the two.

Martin Luther wanted to remove other books, too, including Hebrews and James, because they were not based off of salvation by faith alone.

For myself, I need to study deeper into evidence history before I consider any of it to be totally true but I am a history lover and there have been a few times where something felt clear to me from reading Sirach. Like a grandparents wisdom, I suppose.

Do you mean it was part of the Torah, the bible didn’t exist before Jesus. So was it on scrolls that would have been read in the synagogues ?

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him I agree. Although I have to review more about the Book of Enoch. From what I know of it, we no longer have the original book but a piece from Africa found in the 1700s that was a work of fiction inspired by pieces from the original, but I could have that entire story confused so definitely don't listen to me. These things you have to look ridiculously deep into. Information all over the place.

It's fully extant only in Ethiopian, but there are fragments of it in multiple languages. The verse I was referring to that was corrupted is 1 Enoch 7:2, which in the Ethiopian states that the giants were like 4,000 feet tall or something, LoL (I forget exactly what the numbers were, but they were ridiculous). This version of the book was followed but several of the translators into English, but I own a copy of Nicklesburg's work and he corrected this obvious error with something that makes a lot more sense in light of some things said later in the book.

If you're interested (don't worry if you're not; I'm just responding to your post), a good explanation of it is provided in the link below. The mistake was the result of the copyists misreading a proper name for a reference to numerical height. See Raphael Mendija's entry in this Quora:
https://www.quora.com/How-tall-were-the-giants-in-the-Book-of-Enoch

I consider the Book of Enoch to be highly inspired just as Jude apparently did, but I don't insist upon it for anyone who is skeptical, especially if they don't understand that that particular verse became badly corrupted over time, through a misunderstanding of the copyists.

 

[DuckieLady]

These books (Apocrypha) were part of the scriptures in the 1st century. Consider why were they part of the Septuagint? Why were they in every translation up until and including the 1611 KJV? Even found in translations far past this date. Who removed then and declared they were not inspired? By what authority are they able to make these decisions? I don't really care about what denominations they are from either. The fact is it is evident that they were part of the scriptures in the days of our Messiah Yeshua. I have read most of it and have not read anything that contradicts the rest of the Bible if anything in my experience it adds to the "normal Bible"
These books were part of Bibles for centuries maybe even a thousand years before someone decided to take them out. So, when people go on about being inspired or canonized they were obviously accepted well before the 1611 KJV as this original KLV included them.
There are many theories about why they were taken out. This does not matter to me as again they were accepted and read in the days of our Messiah. The best references we have to this is the Septuagint which was written by 70 Rabbis hence the Greek name meaning 70. The dead sea scrolls also testify to them as part of the scriptures of the day.
You will find most objections are from people bogged down in denominational doctrines of men, and most people can't get out of their small denominational box theology. I know as I was once one of these people until Yahweh broke me out of these man made religious boxes. Halleluyah!
Go for it! Get into them and be Blessed by them who knows you might learn something.

Blessing and Shalom

This is a good way of looking at it... I didn't know about the 70 rabbis thing!

It's fully extant only in Ethiopian, but there are fragments of it in multiple languages. The verse I was referring to that was corrupted is 1 Enoch 7:2, which in the Ethiopian states that the giants were like 4,000 feet tall or something, LoL (I forget exactly what the numbers were, but they were ridiculous). This version of the book was followed but several of the translators into English, but I own a copy of Nicklesburg's work and he corrected this obvious error with something that makes a lot more sense in light of some things said later in the book.

If you're interested (don't worry if you're not; I'm just responding to your post), a good explanation of it is provided in the link below. The mistake was the result of the copyists misreading a proper name for a reference to numerical height. See Raphael Mendija's entry in this Quora:
https://www.quora.com/How-tall-were-the-giants-in-the-Book-of-Enoch

I consider the Book of Enoch to be highly inspired just as Jude apparently did, but I don't insist upon it for anyone who is skeptical, especially if they don't understand that that particular verse became badly corrupted over time, through a misunderstanding of the copyists.

I'm going to have to look more into this today and 4,000 feet.. Lol. Would like to know the actual height would because there is archeological evidence of giants on earth. Walking next to dinosaurs...


Here is one of them:
https://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm

Do you mean it was part of the Torah, the bible didn’t exist before Jesus. So was it on scrolls that would have been read in the synagogues ?

Yes, and it is possible that Jesus did read them... Actually, there is a portion in Matthew where he seems to be quoting Sirach. I guess a person would need to read it and pray about it for themselves.

The Orthodox Christians and Eastern Christians have it and most of the other ones, especially around the entire world have it, but its us plain Christians who don't have it and were taught to be afraid of it.

We're missing other books from the Bible and the Bible mentions them. "The Book of the Wars of the Lord" is one, mentioned in Numbers 21. That book is lost now.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm going to have to look more into this today and 4,000 feet.. Lol. Would like to know the actual height would because there is archeological evidence of giants on earth. Walking next to dinosaurs...

Here is one of them:
https://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm

I remember looking at Taylor's material before.

The fact that fossil evidence suggests they were present with the dinosaurs is what's really telling (it implies concurrent existence, i.e. before the flood). But as far as height, the pre-flood giants were likely much the same size as the giants who lived afterwards, during the time the Israelites were entering the promised land. It is said in scripture that Og of Bashan had a bed 13 feet long, which would have made him somewhere around 11 feet tall.

I've read that more evidence has been discovered than what Taylor and others have found, but the government often covers it up. Gives too much historical credence to the Bible, so they won't let findings see the light of day if they get to them first.

 

[DuckieLady]

I remember looking at Taylor's material before.

The fact that fossil evidence suggests they were present with the dinosaurs is what's really telling (it implies concurrent existence, i.e. before the flood). But as far as height, the pre-flood giants were likely much the same size as the giants who lived afterwards, during the time the Israelites were entering the promised land. It is said in scripture that Og of Bashan had a bed 13 feet long, which would have made him somewhere around 11 feet tall.

I've read that more evidence has been discovered than what Taylor and others have found, but the government often covers it up. Gives too much historical credence to the Bible, so they won't let findings see the light of day if they get to them first.

I say we get a XMind chart out and we do one for books we're not allowed to read and another one for giants we're not allowed to know about

A PowerPoint?

Can we do a PowerPoint?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I say we get a XMind chart out and we do one for books we're not allowed to read and another one for giants we're not allowed to know about

A PowerPoint?

Can we do a PowerPoint?

We all have our own battles to fight, sister. I'm kinda into other things right now, but a lot of people find that subject matter very interesting. So if you feel the Lord calling you to be a champion for truth in that area, by all means, let the world know : )

 

[Grailhunter]

Me too! I am going to try and pull it together and see if I can.. If I don't make sense, I apologize. Lol

@Hidden In Him I agree. Although I have to review more about the Book of Enoch. From what I know of it, we no longer have the original book but a piece from Africa found in the 1700s that was a work of fiction inspired by pieces from the original, but I could have that entire story confused so definitely don't listen to me. These things you have to look ridiculously deep into. Information all over the place.

If you get the app "Lost Books of the Bible" there are a lot on there. I believe recommend The Gospel of Nicodemus, even if you consider it a work of fiction. The people who Jesus healed back him up during his trial.

In letters to Herod and Pilate, you can see them complaining about the "problem" with the earthquake, eclipse, and the raising of the dead, and a lot more on Herod that I won't spoil. Paul's letters are a lot of banter back and forth. Day to day stuff. Interesting, but wouldn't have made sense to add to the Bible.

I've read a lot of these but I haven't told people.. because I expected pitchforks lol

The book you need is called the Other Bible. It will save you a lot time....

 

[DuckieLady]

The book you need is called the Other Bible. It will save you a lot time....

View attachment 18090

Looks interesting... Only problem is its easier because it was slammed together. I don't know how I would feel about the gnostic gospels, for example, DEFINITELY not the Kabbalah..

 

[Hidden In Him]

I don't know how I would feel about the gnostic gospels, for example, DEFINITELY not the Kabbalah..

Virtually one and the same, with Gnosticism simply having a "Christian" veneer.