WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE

[Zao is life]

Speaking of inheriting something.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Don't most Premils already agree that this is something that takes place when Christ intially returns, this sheep and goats judgment? One is then to believe that they inherit the kingdom at the time but have to wait another thousand years before they are allowed access to the tree of life? How can there be this kingdom once Christ returns but that it is not the same kingdom recorded in Revelation 20-22, though? Do the sheep inherit 2 kingdoms? A temporary one then a permanant one? I would like to see someone prove that with Scripture that the kingdom they inherit per the sheep and goats judgment, that it is not meaning the one and only everlasting kingdom, that only Revelation 21-22 is involving the one and only everlasting kingdom, Matthew 25 isn't.

As to right to the tree of life. Revelation 22 makes it crystal clear that it will be in the NJ in the NHNE, thus the NJ is the kingdom they inherit per the sheep and goats judgment since what they inherit has to be everlasting in order to agree with what Matthew 25 records per the following pertaining to the sheep---but the righteous into life eternal(Matthew 25:46). Which then means the following is everlasting as well---inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world(Matthew 25:34)

So the sheep are going to inherit the everlasting kingdom when Christ initially returns except the tree of life won't be in it yet, they have to wait another thousand years for that. Yea, right. That makes good sense---not.

100%. Put a big smile on my face.

I've noticed that many Premils (if not most) do the exact same thing Amils do with scriptures that clearly negate their belief regarding when the NHNE commences - ignore, explain away, dance around, attempt to make the scriptures that negate their position mean something else.​

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 21 is an entirely new and different creation. That is why we distinguish it as the NHNE. Isaiah 65 is not the NHNE. Isaiah 65 is current creation made new.

The above is the foundation of the rest of your sand castle, so we can't get to an agreement on this one.

IMO your sand castle is built on the sea's side of the high tide mark and it's going to get washed away. The high tide being the return of Christ and the time when He makes all things new. So there's no point me debating it with you, but thanks for your input.

 

[rwb]

Unless one believes in an unbiblical gap in Genesis 1, everything God created in the beginning was new, and even so, it didn't stop satan from doing what he did at the time. Except the 2nd time around he will not be able to accomplish what he did the first time around. What then is the issue? It's not like after the thousand years satan manages to make man fall for another 6000 years, thus more of the same. Except it is not more of the same unless he succeeds first. Revelation 20 records that he doesn't succeed.

Why did God create even the serpent to be more cunning and crafty then any other creature? The creation of the serpent, who is a murderer and liar from the beginning is included in all that God created and called all "very good". Does this not tell you God would use sin and death for a specific purpose? Why is the Covenant of Redemption through the slain Lamb ordained in heaven before creation? Can you not understand that God knew that no man could be redeemed through their obedience? Isn't that why God ordained His Son would become a man that He would be the sacrificial Lamb so that humanity and His creation through Christ might be saved? This was necessary in the beginning because God created man with complete autonomy (free will), knowing that man with total freedom would never freely choose to submit to another. Not even to God for life everlasting.

There will be no purpose for another one thousand literal years in the new heaven and new earth when Christ comes the second time. Then the spiritual Kingdom of God will be complete. Therefore, there will also be no purpose for Satan or more time after the second coming of Christ. Premillennialism is built upon deception. Without Rev 20, Premillennialism would not exist! It is only through forcing a literal one thousand years into Rev 20 that Premill exists. The belief that after the Kingdom of God is complete when Christ comes again and all things made new that God would set Satan free to deceive in the new heaven and new earth where there shall be no more sorrow, or death shows a very elementary knowledge of all that is written.

 

[rwb]

Your talk of "old creation" and "new creation" betrays the fact that you do not understand what "I make all things new" means. The same creation, made new again. Jesus did not say, "Behold, I create all things new".

There is nothing in the Revelation of the new heavens and new earth that suggests that either the abyss or the lake of fire will have ceased to exist. In fact, the description of the new heavens and new earth repeatedly mentions the lake of fire, comparing New Jerusalem with the lake of fire. Where did Satan exist in the Garden of Eden?

Your talk of the Day of the LORD as though it's a thousand-year long sabbath betrays the fact that you conflate the Day of judgment when Christ returns, a.k.a the Day of Christ, with the entire millennium. The beast and false prophet are not going to slowly descend into the lake of fire over a period of a thousand years.​

It isn't necessary to create what already exists again! "All things" will be made new because "all things" created have fallen and have become destined to die. The lake of fire is the "second death". Where in the new heavens and new earth does Scripture say the lake of fire or the abyss (grave) shall exist?

The Day of the Lord began when Christ came to earth a man and the Day of the Lord shall end when Christ comes the second time. The advent of His coming and His coming again when the last trumpet sounds begin and ends the Day of the LORD!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not true. Revelation 21 locates the Gentiles outside the gate. It calls them

I don't know if you know but the Greek term "ethno" refers to the Gentiles and is sometimes translated "nations"

Revelation 21:24-27 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can't explain it any further then. You do not understand, as you say.

What is your main claim?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Everything I said is compatible with the NHNE commencing at the same time as the thousand years - the things almost all Premillennialists do not notice or refuse to see.

I don't think anything you have said so far supports your idea that the NHNE commences at the same time as the thousand years. In fact, John locates the NHNE AFTER the thousand years.

Revelation 21:21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. ​

The reason why John can now see the NHNE is because "the first heaven and the first earth passed away.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.​

The first heaven and earth passes away when Jesus sits on the Great White Throne.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. ​

When the thousand years are completed Satan will be released to deceive the nations which are at the "four corners of the earth." In other worlds the original heavens are still existing at that time.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The foundation of which creation?

Is Jesus promising them a future foundation or the one in Genesis 1?

How do you insert the tree of life into Matthew 25?

The Garden of Eden was not created on the 6th day, nor the 7th, nor the 8th, ......

The Garden of Eden and the tree of life was formed/created after the Sabbath, Day of the Lord. You would have to come up with a verse that says the tree of life existed in heaven prior to the other days of creation. The tree of life was not on the earth since the foundation of the world.

The tree of life has been in Paradise in heaven at least since the Flood, if not before that, like when Enoch could no longer be found. Did Enoch enter the Garden of Eden? That would be one way of no longer being found. Enoch would still have to be translated to enter the Garden of Eden. None of Adam and Eve's offspring could enter in their state of death and sin. Was Paradise/the Garden already in heaven at that point, or did Enoch and Paradise get moved to heaven instead of being destroyed in the Flood?

The New Jerusalem will replace Paradise. But not until Revelation 21. Paradise is still where the church is in heaven during the Day of the Lord while the sheep are alive on the earth, in Israel.

Where in Scripture does it mention the tree of life, and that is where it mentions either on earth or in heaven?

 

[Timtofly]

100%. Put a big smile on my face.

I've noticed that many Premils (if not most) do the exact same thing Amils do with scriptures that clearly negate their belief regarding when the NHNE commences - ignore, explain away, dance around, attempt to make the scriptures that negate their position mean something else.​

Since you dance the same dance as the Amil that the NHNE start at the Second Coming, that would make you an Amil.

The above is the foundation of the rest of your sand castle, so we can't get to an agreement on this one.

IMO your sand castle is built on the sea's side of the high tide mark and it's going to get washed away. The high tide being the return of Christ and the time when He makes all things new. So there's no point me debating it with you, but thanks for your input.

Since you think like an Amil, you argue like one, without even discussing the biblical points.

The Day of the Lord is this creation made new. If you don't understand what the NHNE is, you will at the Second Coming. You will have to wait with the Amil impatiently for the next thousand years for you all's NHNE.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

The first heaven and earth passes away when Jesus sits on the Great White Throne.

They still exist in the context of that verse though. They fled and no place for them there means they still exist. The verse is conveying that the GWTJ is not held on Earth or in heaven but a place away from them. I believe the LOF is also in this place. They will disappear right after this judgment though and perhaps that's why God has separated them from where he is to prepare for their destruction and for the NHNE.

Agree that the start of the thousand years is not the start of the NHNE.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't think anything you have said so far supports your idea that the NHNE commences at the same time as the thousand years. In fact, John locates the NHNE AFTER the thousand years.

Revelation 21:21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. ​

The reason why John can now see the NHNE is because "the first heaven and the first earth passed away.

Revelation 21: 1 does not state that that the millennium begins and ends before the first heaven and first earth have passed away, so your above assertion is based on an assumption you have made, and is false.

Myself and Davidpt have already mentioned some of the problems with what you assert above. Here are some of the other problems with your assumption regarding the NHNE following the millennium:

(Bear in mind that Amillennialist also believe that the millennium must begin and end before the first heaven and earth pass away, although that fact has nothing to do with this).

Each time "Then I saw" appears from Revelation 19 to Revelation 21 in your translation that you used, it's is a translation of the Greek word kai - "And I saw ..", and the expression begins in chapter 19:-

"And I saw .. Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war."
"And I saw .. one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,"
"And I saw .. the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh."

"And I saw .. an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand."
"And I saw .. thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
"And I saw .. a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
"And I saw .. a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is."

Your ASSUMPTION that you have made is this: "Because Revelation 21 is written AFTER Revelation 20, the one follows the other".

It's a false assumption. The repeated "And I saw .. " is telling you that John is seeing visions about one and the same thing: the return of Christ and judgment of the beast, and WHAT FOLLOWS IT.

In other words, like this:

"And I saw .. the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh."
​

"And I saw .. a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is."

"And I saw .. an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand..."

"And I saw .. thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.​

------------ He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. --------------- (Revelation.21:7-8).

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. Revelation chapter 2 vs. 11, 26.

"And He said to me,

It is done ..

(And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!).

.. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.

He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."​

Both of the above excluding the brackets are written in Revelation 21 and 22.

And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Neither is Revelation 20:11 talking about the old heavens and earth fleeing from the presence of God at the time of the great white throne. It's simply saying that creation fled from the presence of the judgment throne of its Creator because every creature knew that it was the final judgment - the time of the second death.

The only ones who exist in "the sea" at that point are the dead, the rest of the dead who did not live again UNTIL the thousand years was completed. "The sea / death / hades" are spoken about in the same breath / sentence delivering up the dead "in them". There is no more sea for those who were resurrected when Christ returned, who will not be hurt by the 2nd death, because "the sea" only holds the dead. ​

 

[CadyandZoe]

They still exist in the context of that verse though. They fled and no place for them there means they still exist. The verse is conveying that the GWTJ is not held on Earth or in heaven but a place away from them. I believe the LOF is also in this place. They will disappear right after this judgment though and perhaps that's why God has separated them from where he is to prepare for their destruction and for the NHNE.

Agree that the start of the thousand years is not the start of the NHNE.

The idea that "no place was found for them" comes from the book of Genesis. A careful reading of the creation account will reveal that God first creates a domain; then he populates a domain with celestial bodies, animals, and people.

Suppose that God removed the domain of the sea. What would happen to the sea creatures who lived there? If God removed the air, could birds fly or survive? I think we can safely conclude that if God were to eliminate a domain, everything in that domain would no longer exist.

For this reason, I take it that when Revelation says that "no place was found for them" this means they no longer exist. I don't know where the GWTJ will be held, but I agree with your view that it will take place in a domain other than the one hosting the earth and the heavens.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Revelation 21: 1 does not state that that the millennium begins and ends before the first heaven and first earth have passed away, so your above assertion is based on an assumption you have made, and is false.

The order of things is understood from the context of the passage. The author expects the reader to understand that events mentioned first occur before those discussed later in the passage. Anyone who sees it differently must demonstrate why the author expects the reader to understand the events in reverse order. So far, you still need to do that. I gave you reason to believe that the order of occurance follows the order of mention.

Myself and Davidpt have already mentioned some of the problems with what you assert above.

I didn't see them as problems.

Your ASSUMPTION that you have made is this: "Because Revelation 21 is written AFTER Revelation 20, the one follows the other".

It's a fair assumption. The idea that the order of mention is also the order of occurrence is a tacit agreement between writer and reader. So far, you haven't shown us anywhere John says otherwise.

But sometimes the author gives the reader an explicit indication of time. Revelation 20:7 is a prime example. John writes, "7 When the thousand years are completed . . ." locating additional events taking place on the existing earth. The idea that additional events take place AFTER the thousand years is direct proof that the thousand years take place before the NHHE.

Neither is Revelation 20:11 talking about the old heavens and earth fleeing from the presence of God at the time of the great white throne. It's simply saying that creation fled from the presence of the judgment throne of its Creator because every creature knew that it was the final judgment - the time of the second death.
​

I can only repeat what I said to eqw1938,

The idea that "no place was found for them" comes from the book of Genesis. A careful reading of the creation account will reveal that God first creates a domain; then he populates a domain with celestial bodies, animals, and people.

Suppose that God removed the domain of the sea. What would happen to the sea creatures who lived there? If God removed the air, could birds fly or survive? I think we can safely conclude that if God were to eliminate a domain, everything in that domain would no longer exist.

For this reason, I take it that when Revelation says that "no place was found for them" this means they no longer exist. I don't know where the GWTJ will be held, but I agree with your view that it will take place in a domain other than the one hosting the earth and the heavens.

Contrary to your supposition, John says "no place was found for them."

The only ones who exist in "the sea" at that point are the dead, the rest of the dead who did not live again UNTIL the thousand years was completed. "The sea / death / hades" are spoken about in the same breath / sentence delivering up the dead "in them". There is no more sea for those who were resurrected when Christ returned, who will not be hurt by the 2nd death, because "the sea" only holds the dead. ​

I understand this is important to you. I wish to know why. What is at stake, in your view? if the millennial period comes before the NHNE?

 

[ChristisGod]

(Continued from previous post)

5.) But, but the church has been killing and doing all manner of evil. And if Satan, the king of His kingdom is bound then why isn't the Kingdom of God the prevailing influence in how mankind runs their lives?

The Kingdom of God was NEVER established to make all the whole world righteous, that is the error of Premillennialism and also to a degree of Postmillennialism and Preterism. The Kingdom of God is in fact the prevailing influence in how the church runs their lives. It never was, and never will be the prevailing influence of how the "world" runs their lives. They are two separate and "distinct" Kingdoms, which are adversarial to one another. You need to understand that Satan was not bound for the world's sake, Satan was bound for the elect of the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. This is what you missed the point! For the world, Satan still goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. For the true believers, he has no more power over us. His power over us has been broken. Christ has wounded the head of this Beast for us at the Cross. Not "for" the world. I did not say this. Christ did:

John 17:9

• "I pray for them: I pray not for the world but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

As for the "visible" church over the years killing and doing all manner of evil, this has always been the case, and always will be as long as we are on this sin cursed earth. Have you already forgotten that there is the corporate or external Covenant church, and then there is the true Covenanted church. Just as God said about Old Israel, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel," meaning, there was a corporate Israel, and a true Israel of God. And 'according to this verse' only ONE was the "true" Israel in God's definition. Likewise, some people of the external church could have wantonly killed, but that didn't mean they were the true church anymore than all Israel was Israel. Nor did it mean that Satan was not bound. It means that Satan was not bound "FOR THEM," because it is unlikely they were God's elect.

Luke 6:44

• "For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes."

Thorns are they who choke and hamper the fruit, not that cultivate it. Selah!

6.) Satan is in control of all aspects of human life including all religion.

Be careful! This bridges on blasphemy. Satan does NOT control the "true" Christian religion, nor can he ever. Remember the saints by the death and resurrection of Christ have been given rule over that old serpent Satan, where they can take him up without harm (Luke 10:19; Mark 16:18). He has been bound, destroyed and made useless against us (Elect) and has no more power to subjugate us. He was bound from deceiving and preventing the church from being built through the nations, as we have been delivered from is "power" of darkness. Read the word of God again CAREFULLY on breaking the horn or power of Satan.

Hebrews 2:14

• "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
• And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

That is the strong one in the parable Jesus taught, and that explains how he must be bound first before his house could be plundered where the people are no longer all their lives subject to spiritual bondage. Before Christ prevailed over Satan, that was the case. Are you now going to argue with God and ask him the question, "How Can God say Satan is destroyed when he's STILL prince of this world, huh?!" I wouldn't. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity! That Greek word translated "destroy" literally means to bring down to idleness. To make inactive. To restrain him. Shall we call God wrong in accomplishing this, or has Satan truly "by the death" and resurrection of Christ been made destroyed or as useless against Christians as God's Word says? That verse above is what the parable spoke of. Christ spoiled (seized by conquest) the property of the evil prince of this world (the Devil) by his death. He delivered us who all our lifetime were subject to bondage in his house of pain. If you don't believe these things then you might as well just rip all these pages from the scriptures. Do you receive this truth?

7.) If the 1.7 billion Christians had destroyed the works of the devil then the devil would have no place in the world!

Look, God destroyed the works of the Devil. And there is no "if" about it. There is only "I will receive what God's word actually says," or else "I will reject what God's word actually says." Up to you! It is either God's word is my authority for what is true, or God's word is not my authority for what is true. Again, up to you! There is no "if" God said it. God unambiguously said it, and the church has been given to witness with Power and are tearing down strongholds and destroying works of the devil through the testimony of Christ. As the Apostles said when they realized the serpents and scorpions were subject to them by Christ's word. There is no "if" God destroyed Satan that they rule, there is only, He Did! Again:

Hebrews 2:14

• "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
• And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Where is the, "IF?" Christ actually destroyed the works of the devil "FOR" Christians, but obviously not for the world, just as He said. It's the reason He said He didn't pray for the world, but only for those given Him out of the world.

Will finish this post later.

gobblygook. Israel is Israel and the church is the church- they are not each other.

 

[rwb]

I don't follow you. Even if we remove the chapter divisions, according to the book of Revelation, the NHNE takes place after the millennium, which takes place after the Lord's return.

Yes, John's vision (Rev 21) is of what shall be because of what is now coming to pass. The new heaven and new earth that shall come after this time, symbolized a thousand years has expired, shall only be occupied by whosoever overcomes in this age.

Revelation 21:7 (KJV) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Very clearly with verse separations or without no unbeliever can occupy the new heaven and new earth because during this age of time, symbolized a thousand years they remain spiritually dead, and are outside the gates of the holy city new Jerusalem that is in heaven. And they shall have their part in the lake of fire that is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Davidpt]

I understand this is important to you. I wish to know why. What is at stake, in your view? if the millennial period comes before the NHNE?

Speaking for myself it would obviously mean Amil is the correct position in that case, since there is no way in a million years that the NHNE don't soon follow the 2nd coming. A thousand years and a little season later is not soon after. Not to mention, what all it would contradict in that case.

Let's start with something Jesus said in the Discourse. And let's try and connect some dots based on what He said.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Right here it plainly tells us, thus nothing to dispute, that when the heaven and earth shall pass away,
that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

It would be pretty silly not to apply verse 36 to events involving His 2nd coming, don't you think? IOW, who would apply verse 36 to an era of time 1000 plus years post that of His 2nd coming? Anyone that would is obviously very confused about things, no doubt.

In regards to verse 36, in verse 35 it mentions 2 different things. Obviously, this part--but my words shall not pass away---couldn't possibly be pertaining to verse 36. Therefore, only this part can be---Heaven and earth shall pass away

Thus far we know this--Heaven and earth shall pass away, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. And that this couldn't possibly be meaning a thousand years post His 2nd coming. If we continue to connect the dots, shouldn't this lead us to what is recorded in 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3, for one? What do those chapters involve? They involve the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night. Can that fit the day and hour no man knows? Of course it can.

It is then a question of, does anything in 1 Thessalonians 5 or 2 Peter 3 support the heaven and earth passing away during a day and hour no man knows, that only the Father knows? Of course there is something that supports that unless one is just plain blind or misapplying it by applying it to an era of time it is not even involving, such as a thousand years post the 2nd coming rather than during the 2nd coming.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



There's your day and hour no man knows---the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

There's your heaven passing away---in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise

And there is your earth passing away---the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

It can't get any clearer than this, the heavens and earth pass away during the events involving the 2nd coming. And at this point the great white throne judgment hasn't even begun yet unless 2 Peter 3:10 is meaning the great white throne judgment. Amils might even believe it is meaning the GWTJ for all I know. But I don't think it is meaning that myself.

Regardless, the heaven and earth are passing away here in 2 Peter 3:10, and that it happens during the events involving the 2nd coming, not a thousand years later instead. What now? No earth to dwell upon at all since most Premils insist that the NHNE doesn't begin during the 2nd coming. Can't dwell upon the old earth during the thousand years if it already passed away before the thousand years began. Can't dwell upon the new earth during the thousand years if it doesn't even arrive until after the thousand years. No wonder I asked, what now?

Once again, if Premil is the correct position, The NHNE have to begin during the 2nd coming events since there is no way to twist what I submitted above and make it be meaning a thousand years post the 2nd coming, then expecting some of the rest of us to take that interpretation serious. Or the other option is, if one still insists that the NHNE can't begin until after the thousand years, only one position can fit that scenario in that case, and it for sure isn't Premil.

 

[rwb]

THE PROMISES TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME:-

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)
(5) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(6) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(7) They will have written on them the name of God, Christ's new name, and the name of the city of God (Revelation 3:12)
(8) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(9) They will reign on the earth (Revelation 5:10)
(10) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)
(11) They will reign with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:6)
(12) They will reign forever and ever (Revelation 22:5)

Yes, those who shall occupy the new heaven and new earth AFTER the thousand years of time have ended are those who overcome. So why do you say the unbelievers and abominable who are now outside of the holy city new Jerusalem from above shall be part of the new heaven and new earth for one thousand years??? You contradict yourself.

During this age of time, symbolized a thousand years, we reign spiritually with Christ through His Spirit within us. All who have part in spiritually living and reigning with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years, shall never cease to reign with Him, and in the age to come, after time, symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer, believers will reign physically, in bodies of flesh resurrected immortal and incorruptible forever and ever on the new earth.

 

[rwb]

It's talking about the New Jerusalem and it's not only talking about those who are allowed through its gates. It's also talking about those who will perish in the lake of fire at the close of the thousand years. It's also talking about what @Davidpt mentioned that Isaiah 60 is speaking about.

Believers spiritually enter into the new Jerusalem when we are born again through the Spirit of Christ within us. Believers are the church of the firstborn who have spiritually come unto mount Sion, the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem. Those who will perish in the lake of fire that is the second death, perish because during this age of time, symbolized a thousand years they never spiritually enter into the holy city of God in heaven. IOW they remain spiritually dead, separated from God, and shall never have part in the new heaven and new earth. Not even for one thousand years! Isaiah must be understood in light of the New Covenant that came with Christ to the earth.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[rwb]

Not true. Revelation 21 locates the Gentiles outside the gate.

All of humanity is located outside the gates of new Jerusalem until they are born again!

 

[rwb]

Everything I said is compatible with the NHNE commencing at the same time as the thousand years - the things almost all Premillennialists do not notice or refuse to see.

Spiritually the new heaven and new earth began during this age of time, symbolized a thousand years. The problem for Premillennialists is that they cannot distinguish between the spiritual reality of the holy heavenly city new Jerusalem that since the first advent of Christ was made spiritually accessible to whosoever is born again, and the new heaven and new earth that shall come that shall be physically accessible to whosoever having been born again is bodily resurrected to immortality and incorruptible flesh for that which shall physically come down from heaven after the first heaven and earth have passed away.