At the present time Christ is present with us in Spirit. That's not the same as the physical and visible return of Christ to earth "with power and great glory", along with the saints and angels.
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When He Returns!
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Actually it would not be weird at all in another dimension. It would be NORMAL.
There's no "symbolism" here, and God would not confuse us about something that is so critical. Even Abraham understood this. To Abraham this was as real as anything he had seen.
By faith he [Abraham] sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb 11:9,10).
ScottA
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Nonsense. That is the Bible speaking. Believe it or disbelieve it.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15)
2 THESSALONIANS 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Luke 21:27)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mark 13:26)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
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There seems to be a level of cascading supposition going on here. You firstly assume that dimensional realities is a thing. Which I'm down with, it could be. But you take that assumption into the bible and into Revelation where there is no such reference. So right away you are on shaky ground because you are trying to paint a scene that God does not.
God refers to this earth, our heavens, being made new. He refers to the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, no specification of which dimension, leaving us to conclude our own, because why would we automatically conclude another?
So, there's that momumental leap right from the start.
Then you seem intent on backing your theory up with the notion that because the New Jerusalem is described as a giant cube (which would be weird, or at least unseen ever before here...) then it has to be in a different dimension. But here you are leaping into wild assumption again. How do you know it won't be just as weird there as here? Is it a dimension of giant cube buildings, and that's why it's not weird there? Is it a dimension that has had a giant "Coming Soon" poster for all eternity, just to get people prepared, so in that way it won't be weird? But...if, by your own admission, this city is going to be full of us...we would be visitors (be it permanent) to this dimension, so seeing would still definitely leave us going, 'huh! Would you look at that!'
Look...you yourself said that the New Jerusalem was the same, perfect cube shape as the Holy of Holies, right? If, without panicking, you take that a small step further you realize that God is just repeating the notion on a grand scale. His dwelling is now, forever, with his people. That's why the New Jerusalem is also referred to as the bride, "coming down from heaven". It's us! And God will be forever with us, just like he was in the Holy of Holies, or within heaven now.
That makes a little more sense, don't you think...that God is saying he will dwell with us, his people (Rev 21), than that Jerusalem will actually be decked out like a bride, veil and all, and that we have to have some 'dimension' somewhere that actually grows pearls big enough to wedge in these massive gates you say will exist?
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Have you heard of 'The Already, but Not Yet?' It's sort of pivotal. And it means we are neither delusional, liars or clueless. Just bible believers being faithful. It is both extremely possible to have Christ living vibrantly within you, and still expect his visible, bodily return. The bible teaches it and demands it.
I think my question to you must be, why are you, like the scoffers that Peter spoke of, spreading lies that he will not return? I know of others like you, and I cannot understand how you dismiss the many...many verses that talk of his return.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, nonsense - foolishness to those who are perishing, because you are looking at the words, but without spiritual discernment. For instance, you quote this passage:
...but cannot reconcile it with this passage:
Luke 17:20
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You would and have placed me among the scoffers and liars, but it is you who do not know the truth of what the bible teaches.
This you do to your own shame. You are quoting the teachings of men against what the bible actually teaches, for “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
I don not say that the Biblical account is wrong at all but I do say that many people have got it wrong.
But as ScottA says above about Jesus being in you, I agree.
The coming is about Jesus coming too you and also too the whole world, is in regard as too the coming of the Holy Spirit.
So we who are born again have him, his Holy Spirit.
So what more do we need, nothing ! he has come, we get it !
If we are truly Born Again, we have made the grade, so if Jesus was to come in the flesh what more would that make too me, nothing !
I don't have to see him in the flesh, I know him, I am not trying to find him, I once was but when you do find him, well he actually finds you, because you are willing to come to him.
Now with sadness that I see of people wanting the 2ed coming, well that's not truly a good thing at all, because for one thing, all can have him, it's the Holy Spirit in your lives. but to say that you want him to come down only proves to me that such do not know what they are asking for, our Christian duty is to help bring people to the Holy Spirit the best that we can, but he will find them if they seek and knock as that's the way it goes.
Now with the 2ed coming well there is hell fire to come first before that happens, now I do not wish that on anyone, because that's due despair or a work of Satan to want such.
To me that's like wanting World War 2 to take place, so as to do wrong in order to make something right, well such does not cut it in my opinion at all, 2 wrongs do not make a right so such is not holy at all.
If we follow in the Saints foot steps we will get there, this as been the challenge for 2000 years.
But Satan's works has increased moved forward, steeped it up a notch in leading the whole world astray, we see it sadly with Abortion nowadays, Satan is fooling people into encouraging and driving people to feel empowered to abortion on demand, like as if it was to worn as a badge honour, It all starts with murdering the most innocent and then it's madness spreads out like a pox to taking out the sick and old you name it but were does all this trend of madness end, once the cat is out of the bag.
I can see that many souls will be lost to Satan with the folly that the majority of Christians are being led down this track.
When you are truly Born Again Jesus will never leave you and he says this is so, once you are truly found you are in him. what more do we need and so at the 2ed coming, it's still the same working, fact is nothing will changed in how one becomes saved, this never changes.
It will only be due to extreme hell fire that the 2ed coming will come about, I do not wish that on the world, but it will come I do regret, but I do not serve that means to an ends at all.
I will not serve 2 masters, to do wrong in order that good comes out of it, as a soul will be deserving of hell to go down that path I believe.
I will not follow the Talmud and so called Zionist in their Cultural Marxist Political Correct mans works endeavour, I know their works they are of their father the Devil murderers from the beginning, as Jesus Christ said of them in fact.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
The only means of navigating through the end times prophecies and all that is written, is not by men's ways and understanding, but by God's ways.
Rightly dividing the word of truth means to separate all that is of men from all that is of God. Thus, if it is the second coming or any other event, there is a chronological timetable according to men and that pertains to men, and there is a timeless fulfillment according to God. As pertains to men, Paul said it best, that all these things come to men "each in his own order." But as pertains to God, just as "I am" is timeless, so are all things of God. Therefore, we must ask...is the second coming of God, or of men? And likewise with countless other passages that men try to fit into their own lowly and timely existence - but it doesn't work that way. His ways are indeed higher, and whoever brings them down to the level of men (except for Christ), is promoting the evils of this world.
Thus, in the end and from God's greater perspective, it is correct to write such things in present and past tense...for with God the only truth that will remain after the last revelation - is that all things "were" before the foundation of the world, and that this [would be] chronology was a mere "image" unfolding to the nth degree. For in God's greater reality, neither light nor darkness are a matter of time or times, but simply are, just as God is "I am."
So...history is nothing more than [His story], as it "were"..."as it is written." It is [story time], the true story of a timeless God. Not its own reality having its own natural laws, and not a created exception to all that is God, but His story...and ours, which He tells while men sleep.
Rightly dividing the word of truth means to separate all that is of men from all that is of God. Thus, if it is the second coming or any other event, there is a chronological timetable according to men and that pertains to men, and there is a timeless fulfillment according to God. As pertains to men, Paul said it best, that all these things come to men "each in his own order." But as pertains to God, just as "I am" is timeless, so are all things of God. Therefore, we must ask...is the second coming of God, or of men? And likewise with countless other passages that men try to fit into their own lowly and timely existence - but it doesn't work that way. His ways are indeed higher, and whoever brings them down to the level of men (except for Christ), is promoting the evils of this world.
Thus, in the end and from God's greater perspective, it is correct to write such things in present and past tense...for with God the only truth that will remain after the last revelation - is that all things "were" before the foundation of the world, and that this [would be] chronology was a mere "image" unfolding to the nth degree. For in God's greater reality, neither light nor darkness are a matter of time or times, but simply are, just as God is "I am."
So...history is nothing more than [His story], as it "were"..."as it is written." It is [story time], the true story of a timeless God. Not its own reality having its own natural laws, and not a created exception to all that is God, but His story...and ours, which He tells while men sleep.
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And we could point fingers and go around and around. But how do you deal with passages like this?
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. - John 14:3
And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” - Acts 1:9–11
There are so many more, but just these two, clearly teach both a going and a coming.
Yes, he teaches he will be with us, within us always. The Holy Spirit is that promise, and we have that now and we walk in that blessing, truth and power now. There is no doubt.
However, you cannot ignore, brush aside, or deny what these verses are saying. Jesus physically left...he will physically return. This was the expectation of the Apostles. Why is it not your expectation? Why is it not your longing?
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8
Well, straight you did not make it.
You have denied the Spirit of Christ in a person, or the return of Jesus Christ, or both. I am not sure. Which is it?
No, this is not the time of the Shepherd dividing the sheep from the goats. Where do you get that?
Stranger
I am quite surprised that any Christian doubts or questions the physical, visible return of Christ to earth with power and great glory (which is what He said), accompanied by His saints and angels.
When Christ came the first time to this earth it was in humility and humiliation as the Suffering Servant and the Lamb of God.
However, when He comes the second time, it will be with power and great glory as the Lion of Judah having a "rod of iron", and as the King of kings and Lord of lords. There are numerous passages about the second coming and what it entails . But one should suffice for the present.
REVELATION 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
@Enocj111 We should understand the timespan of Revelation 19, where the time at the beginning of Revelation 19 starts and the time where Revelation 19 ends.
I wonder if Revelation 19 also nearly covers the same time span as Revelation 20, where Satan follows nearly immediately the Beast and the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire just before the Great White Throne judgement of the Peoples of the earth.
Shalom
I wonder if Revelation 19 also nearly covers the same time span as Revelation 20, where Satan follows nearly immediately the Beast and the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire just before the Great White Throne judgement of the Peoples of the earth.
Shalom
We know from other Scriptures that Christ descends to earth AFTER the Great Tribulation. So Revelation 19-22 cover the events from the end of the Great Tribulation to the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth. Therefore we must simply take these things in chronological order.
1. Praises in Heaven after the judgment of Mystery Babylon -- 19:1-6
2. The Marriage of the Lamb -- 19:7-10
3. The Second Coming of Christ from Heaven -- 19:11-16
4. The Battle of Armageddon -- 19:17-21
5. Satan chained in the Bottomless Pit -- 20:1-3
6. The Millennial reign of Christ -- 20:4-6
7. The Battle of Gog and Magog -- 20:7-9
8. The Unholy Trinity cast into the Lake of Fire -- 20:10
9. The Great White Throne Judgment -- 20:11-15
10. The New Heavens and the New Earth -- 21:1
11. The New Jerusalem -- 21:2 - 22:5
12. Significance of the book of Revelation -- 22:6-13
13. Blessings to those who do Christ's commandments -- 22:14
14. Warning to the unconverted -- 22:15
15. Invitation to all sinners to be saved -- 22:16,17
16. Warning to those who tamper with Scripture -- 22:18,19
17. Conclusion of Revelation -- 22:20, 21
Enoch111: However, when He comes the second time, it will be with power and great glory as the Lion of Judah having a "rod of iron", and as the King of kings and Lord of lords.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Can it be both? Physically and within?
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:1-3
Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? SoS 6:10
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Can it be both? Physically and within?
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:1-3
Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? SoS 6:10
Yes, I understand, you have no understanding and want to force a linear understanding as demonstrated by your answer.
Both rev. 19 and rev. 20 cover the same unfolding time span.
Rev. 19 focuses on what Christ is doing during the Millennium age up and until the events jumps into Rev 20 where Satan is captured by Christ and dispatches Satan into the Lake of fire. Rev 20 is primarily focussed on the activities of Satan and what happens during the 1,000 years that Satan is in the Bottomless Pit, before it sketches the activities of Satan after he is released before he is captured by Christ and thrown into the Lake of Fire. Rev 20 then end with the Great white throne judgements.
Shalom
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I believe the Lord has ensured that His bride will be sanctified and cleansed...else His death, resurrection, and ascension would be in vain.
Eph 5:25-27
(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
(26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
(27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Episkopos ~ Stumpmaster
Eph 5:25-27
Is a directional teaching that applies to men not converted.
Converted men ARE cleansed and ARE sanctified and prepared to be redeemed and ARE redeemed when Jesus descends FROM Heaven TO the Clouds and calls up HIS CHURCH (ie the Converted), TO the Clouds.
THEY arise UP (pre trib) to Jesus IN Glorified Bodies, and SEE Christ "as He is".
On Earth, Chaos, One world Order is falling into place, with a False promise of PEACE.
Jews particularly have been warned to flee the cities, hide, not fall victim to the "world leaders" politico, joining, mark of allegiance TO him.
All others...Jews and Gentiles NOT having ANY allegiance TO GOD, will be deciding WHO they WILL "team up WITH".... ie WHOSE allegiance "they" will make their VOW to.
Dependent on their "choice"; in either case;
Bodily Death will be the ultimate Consequence.
1) God
Or
2) the anti-Christ
Those WHO choose God (including those who Jews who hid from the anti-Christ) WHO choose to BE with God, shall suffer their bodily Death, and THEN be (ie Their "then" Saved soul", redeemed ) UP TO Heaven, (not the Clouds with Christs Church).
(This occurs before the opening of the Fifth Seal).
Chaos continues on the Earth. The so-called promised Peace is realized by the people remaking on Earth, that it WAS "false", but too late for them, already having made their allegiance TO the anti-Christ. THEY all shall suffer the the "great wrath" of the Lord,
THEN Jesus WITH POWER shall descend TO the Earth. Coming as the Son of Man, AND "with" Power", who IS Christ, Coming with 10,000 of His Saints, and angels, to FINISH the Battle for the Victory of His Heavens and Earth, that fallen angels and fallen men have corrupted.
ALL SHALL SEE HIM.
God Bless,
Taken
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