Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[CrowCross]

The reason I also brought up John 14:2-3 is simple. Look what the text says-- I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

That's the pre-trip rapture!!!! Jesus has left and preparing a place for us!!! Jesus said He will come back and take us there. Follow the wedding Stages of Jesus' time. I made you a link....check it out.

Your U-turn never gets us there but right into a battle on earth.
The Pre-trib works better.

 

[IndianaRob]

Which is what? What's for dinner?

The bread of life.

 

[IndianaRob]

@CrowCross and @Davidpt

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

These verses are talking about Jesus dying on the cross which prepared a place for us in heaven.

When we die the place is already there and waiting on us. Jesus is not building the house now, it’s been build for 2000 years.

 

[CrowCross]

The bread of life.

You don't think it's like this?

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross and @Davidpt

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

These verses are talking about Jesus dying on the cross which prepared a place for us in heaven.

When we die the place is already there and waiting on us. Jesus is not building the house now, it’s been build for 2000 years.

WHAT?!?....Jesus said I go and prepare a place for you...then...I will come again, and receive you unto myself. This doesn't sound like what Jesus did on the cross.
Where do you think you're gonna live in heaven? On a cloud next to your harp?

 

[JimKnox]

Except it is not until the NJ descends out of heaven from God does the bride then begin living with the groom.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.



When is a bride typically adorned for her husband? When this is initially true---for the marriage of the Groom is come, and his wife hath made herself ready?

Or much later, such as a thousand years later? Since Premils, such as yourself, typically take Revelation 21:2 to be meaning a thousand years plus a little season, plus a GWTJ, post that of when Revelation 19:7 is meaning.

We then end up with this scenario.

for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. But His wife is not adorned for Him until over a thousand years later.

Since you appear to be an expert on weddings, does that fit how a typical wedding goes down? for the marriage of the Groom is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. But it is much later when the wife adorns herself for her husband, that she does not do that when the marriage is come, and that the wife has made herself ready.

The reason I also brought up John 14:2-3 is simple. Look what the text says-- I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

And that the ones He is talking to here would not be anyone that is raptured when He comes. They would all be long dead before that event occurs. Therefore, the ones He is talking to at the time would be the dead in Christ that rise first. But if they are already with Him, how do we make sense of the text that it is not until He comes again, that He then receives them unto Himself; that where He is, there they may be also?

Thus why I'm open minded that soul sleep could be Biblical though it currently is not my position. Plus, it seems obvious that the place He went to prepare is the NJ that comes down from God out of heaven(Revelation 21:2)

But let's not be logical about anything. Right? It's no fun when one is being logical about something since it tends to throw a monkey wrench into how we have been interpreting some of these things the entire time.

Gotta love that strawman you just burnt down with ease.
Ooooo and the sarcasm is juvenile.
Well done.

 

[Davidpt]

That's the pre-trip rapture!!!! Jesus has left and preparing a place for us!!! Jesus said He will come back and take us there. Follow the wedding Stages of Jesus' time. I made you a link....check it out.

Your U-turn never gets us there but right into a battle on earth.
The Pre-trib works better.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The ones Jesus was addressing at the time are already long gone and dead. But if they are currently with Him, there is only one way that can be 100% true. That this---I will come again--is not a future coming, it's a coming that already took place. It is impossible, according to the text not me, to receive them unto Himself, that where He is, there they may be also---without this happening first---I will come again

One poster thinks His resurrection explains it, except when He rose, all these disciples were still alive. Therefore, couldn't have possibly taken them into heaven with Him when He ascended into heaven some mere days later. After all, where He is now is not bodily on the earth still, but is bodily in heaven.

Yet most interpreters, Premil and Amil alike, except for maybe Preterists, take the 'I will come again''to be involving a coming that hasn't even taken place yet.

So which coming recorded in the NT, if the disciples are literally already with Him, is meaning the coming meant in John 14:4? Once again, totally impossible for any of them to already be with Him unless He already came again first, as in earlier, and not in the future still.

You are switching who Jesus is addressing here. Jesus is not addressing anyone that will still be alive when He comes. He is addressing His disciples at the time.

 

[Davidpt]

Gotta love that strawman you just burnt down with ease.
Ooooo and the sarcasm is juvenile.
Well done.

And your reply here is not juvenile? You didn't even bother to debunk anything if you disagreed with it. Opinions like yours are a dime a dozen, and by themselves prove absolutely zero.

 

[IndianaRob]

You don't think it's like this?

I don’t think so. The marriage supper is where the brides are chosen according to the parable of the wedding feast.

 

[IndianaRob]

WHAT?!?....Jesus said I go and prepare a place for you...then...I will come again, and receive you unto myself. This doesn't sound like what Jesus did on the cross.
Where do you think you're gonna live in heaven? On a cloud next to your harp?

When Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," He was speaking to the eleven men in that room. And He did come again to them — at the resurrection.

And the Bible clearly says we have a body available in heaven right now.

2 Corinthians 5:1 — "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

 

[Davidpt]

When Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," He was speaking to the eleven men in that room. And He did come again to them — at the resurrection.

And the Bible clearly says we have a body available in heaven right now.

2 Corinthians 5:1 — "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

What you are not factoring in, is this. When Jesus died He never ascended into heaven and began preparing a place. He descended into hell, but not the portion pertaining to torment. But you want us to believe that while He was dead those cpl of days that He was in heaven preparing a place.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


In no way shape or form does being in the heart of the earth = being in heaven those same three days and three nights.

And besides, there is also this.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Obviously, His soul being in hell precedes His resurrection. Thus, it is because of His resurrection that His soul did not remain in hell. And no matter how you look at it, soul in hell does not = soul in heaven. No one could possibly think hell can mean heaven.

 

[JimKnox]

And your reply here is not juvenile? You didn't even bother to debunk anything if you disagreed with it. Opinions like yours are a dime a dozen, and by themselves prove absolutely zero.

Exposing strawman fallacies and/or sarcasm is not juvenile, my friend. It is the result of critical thinking. Try it sometime, instead of lame insults like "dime a dozen".

 

[CrowCross]

When Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," He was speaking to the eleven men in that room. And He did come again to them — at the resurrection.

And the Bible clearly says we have a body available in heaven right now.

2 Corinthians 5:1 — "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The ones Jesus was addressing at the time are already long gone and dead. But if they are currently with Him, there is only one way that can be 100% true. That this---I will come again--is not a future coming, it's a coming that already took place. It is impossible, according to the text not me, to receive them unto Himself, that where He is, there they may be also---without this happening first---I will come again

One poster thinks His resurrection explains it, except when He rose, all these disciples were still alive. Therefore, couldn't have possibly taken them into heaven with Him when He ascended into heaven some mere days later. After all, where He is now is not bodily on the earth still, but is bodily in heaven.

Yet most interpreters, Premil and Amil alike, except for maybe Preterists, take the 'I will come again''to be involving a coming that hasn't even taken place yet.

So which coming recorded in the NT, if the disciples are literally already with Him, is meaning the coming meant in John 14:4? Once again, totally impossible for any of them to already be with Him unless He already came again first, as in earlier, and not in the future still.

You are switching who Jesus is addressing here. Jesus is not addressing anyone that will still be alive when He comes. He is addressing His disciples at the time.

I've read several commentaries that express what I said and no commentaries that expressed your view....which commentary did you get your view from?

 

[Davidpt]

Gotta love that strawman you just burnt down with ease.
Ooooo and the sarcasm is juvenile.
Well done.

Someone needs to educate you on what a strawman is.

A strawman fallacy is when you misrepresent your opponent's position so it is easier to attack. I did the exact opposite---I used their own stated timeline against them.

Rev 19---Premils universally place this at the Second Coming, right before the Millennium begins.
Rev 20:1-6----They place this as the 1,000-year Millennium.
Rev 21---They place this after the Millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment.

I simply took their timeline, looked at the text in Rev 19 (the wife hath made herself ready) and Rev 21 (prepared as a bride adorned), and pointed out the absurdity of a bride getting ready for a wedding, having the wedding, and then waiting over 1,000 years to actually adorn herself for the groom.

I used their stated timeline against them. That is not a strawman---that is a cross examination.

What's interesting about it, I too am a Premil, except I disagree that Rev 21:2 is meaning over a thousand years later after Rev 19:7 is meaning, since there is no logic to that.

 

[Davidpt]

I've read several commentaries that express what I said and no commentaries that expressed your view....which commentary did you get your view from?

I don't rely on Commentaries. I can read and reason things for myself. And that I can see who Jesus is addressing at the time and what is required in order for them to be where he is. That he has to come again first. We cannot remove that from the text nor ignore that Jesus said that. It is clearly a condition that has to be met before He receives them to Himself, etc, that He has to come again first. Which then raises the question, did He already come again or is He yet to come again? If the latter, the ones He was speaking to at the time, His disciples, can't already be where He is if He hasn't even come again yet. But you want it to be only about those that would be alive when Christ returns, thus flat out ignore who He was addressing at the time. As if they are not relevant here.

 

[IndianaRob]

What you are not factoring in, is this. When Jesus died He never ascended into heaven and began preparing a place. He descended into hell, but not the portion pertaining to torment. But you want us to believe that while He was dead those cpl of days that He was in heaven preparing a place.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


In no way shape or form does being in the heart of the earth = being in heaven those same three days and three nights.

And besides, there is also this.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Obviously, His soul being in hell precedes His resurrection. Thus, it is because of His resurrection that His soul did not remain in hell. And no matter how you look at it, soul in hell does not = soul in heaven. No one could possibly think hell can mean heaven.

Why are you mentioning ascending into heaven? Those verses don’t say anything about Jesus ascending into heaven.

 

[IndianaRob]

I've read several commentaries that express what I said and no commentaries that expressed your view....which commentary did you get your view from?

Commentaries are some man’s opinion on the Bible and from my experience with them, most of them are intentionally written to mislead people from the truth.

God never told us to “rightly divide” commentaries. Read your Bible and never ever let some other man tell you what the Bible says.

 

[Davidpt]

Why are you mentioning ascending into heaven? Those verses don’t say anything about Jesus ascending into heaven.

Aren't you arguing that He comes again after the resurrection, which then logically implies He is preparing a place in heaven while He is dead? I'm trying to debunk your view. None of this is my view. Of course though, I can't debunk your view if I'm misunderstanding it to begin with. It is when He is away that He is preparing a place in heaven. You have Him being away while He is dead then coming again once He rises from the dead. Except He can't be in heaven preparing a place while He is dead if He is in hell instead.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you--- Where you seem to be arguing that he does this while He is dead, except none of that can be meaning in the heart of the earth.

 

[IndianaRob]

That he has to come again first. We cannot remove that from the text nor ignore that Jesus said that. It is clearly a condition that has to be met before He receives them to Himself, etc, that He has to come again first.

This part isn’t debatable, it’s in the text. Jesus said he would come again to receive YOU (disciples), not people 2000 years in the future.

There is no way anyone can reason that this “come again” is not Jesus coming at the resurrection.

 

[IndianaRob]

Aren't you arguing that He comes again after the resurrection, which then logically implies He is preparing a place in heaven while He is dead? I'm trying to debunk your view. None of this is my view. Of course though, I can't debunk your view if I'm misunderstanding it to begin with. It is when He is away that He is preparing a place in heaven. You have Him being away while He is dead then coming again once He rises from the dead. Except He can't be in heaven preparing a place while He is dead if He is in hell instead.

I’m not saying Jesus prepared the place while he was in hell, the place was prepared the moment Jesus died on the cross.

When Jesus said I go to prepare a place for the he’s saying he’s going to the cross to pay the price for us.

The only reason Old Testament saints didn’t go to heaven is because the way had not been made yet.