Why do some Christians see Christian art as idolatry?

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VictoryinJesus

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This is before He ascended into heaven.

What I was trying to say is no doubt He looked nothing like the images painted by man. Obviously. I agree with you that if we pray to the oil-painted image of a man then we are praying to a false image created by man. Never considered it before now.
 
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Job

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What I was trying to say is no doubt He looked nothing like the images painted by man. Obviously. I agree with you that if we pray to the oil-painted image of a man then we are praying to a false image created by man. Never considered it before now.


I misunderstood. My bad.
default_smile.png


There's a passage in 1 Corinthians 11 that gives a description of what He doesn't look like. It's verses 1-16.
 
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bbyrd009

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It is 99.99% certain that this woman was worshiping Jesus. One would have to be dumb as a box of nails to sit there and look at a statue of Jesus (already being a Christian and believing in the Creed) and worship a piece of plaster. This is such an outrageous assertion
so you say, out of this side of your mouth now, but wadr reading those links reveals a markedly diff pov than the one of "just plaster," see.
One is led to believe that God painted it, or is somehow supernaturally protecting it, it has become a full blown idol iow.
Aside from the fact that Jesus obviously would not have let her worship Him in that manner anyway, we have examples of this in Scripture.
 

bbyrd009

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That is not exactly true. Reguarding Jesus' physical appearance, the Bible tells us what He was not: Isaiah 53:2-3
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
puts a whole new spin on "i love Jesus," yeh
 

epostle1

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A purely spiritual Christianity is more like Mancheanism. Christianity is BOTH spiritual AND physical. Your own quote:
I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Acts 17:21-22.
HE USED THE ALTAR, A PHYSICAL OBJECT to teach about God, but you don't get it. Paul was wrong according to you.

Deut. 4:15 – from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 – of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 – hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 – God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 – for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 – God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 – Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 – it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 – David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 – the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 – Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 – the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.

Images have been used since the 1st century to teach the illiterate, which was 95%+ of the population. Paleo-Christian art in the catacombs still exists, but you have nothing to do with the Christians that put it there. Pity.

One of the great sorrows — after the church attacks, murders, abductions, rapes and forced conversions — caused by the Islamic persecution of Christians must be the defilement of holy icons by Muslims. Indeed, it is highly probable that the iconoclast heresy which rocked Christianity in the seventh through the ninth centuries was triggered or accelerated by the brutal and sudden rise of Islam after the death of Muhammad in 632A.D.

Even after the Seventh Ecumenical Council upheld the use of icons (in 787), the iconoclasts continued to trouble the Church, led by the emperor Theophilus. But after his death, in 842 the icons were permanently restored, and continue to be a defining characteristic of the Orthodox Church and all the Eastern Christian communions (the Coptic Church, Assyrian and Chaldean churches, etc.).

Islam is strongly set against images of any kind, although one may encounter in rare Islamic books depictions of Muhammad and his earliest companions, or Muhammad being visited by the spirit-being supposed to be the archangel Gabriel. But when it comes to Christian images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, or the saints, Islam is the “icon smasher” extraordinaire. (“Icon smasher” is a literal translation of “iconoclast.”)

In the Christian lands conquered by Muslims from the seventh century onwards, only a small percentage of churches were left to serve the indigenous Christian population. Those churches not destroyed were converted into mosques, their frescoes and mosaics painted or covered over, or, if they were panel icons, hacked into pieces and burned.

Naming and confronting Islam’s profound, innate hatred of traditional Christianity’s holy images helps us grasp the deeper motivations behind the recent push to re-convert all the Hagia Sophia churches of Turkey into mosques, including and especially the great Hagia Sophia of Constantinople (Istanbul) built by the Emperor Justinian in 537A.D.

The restoration of the original Christian frescoes and mosaics, revealing once again the holy images of Christ, His Mother, and the Saints, is the ultimate theological affront to the Islamic supremacist mind. It is the icons themselves — which proclaim the Christian faith in Jesus Christ as the incarnate Word of God, and therefore God Himself — that outrage Muslims as the worst possible sin, that of shirk, the association of another with Allah, whom Muslims believe to be far beyond having a son or any other in association with him.

Because of this hyper-charged, religiously-based hatred of Christianity’s holy images, with the re-Islamicization of Turkey we see special emphasis on once again covering (or even destroying) all Christian icons, most readily accomplished by simply converting all the Hagia Sophia churches into mosques. This is in fact a modern application of the Pact of Omar, the classic conditions imposed by Muslims on conquered Christians from the 7th century on.

This is the same phenomenon that we saw in Egypt, as the Muslim Brotherhood sought to implement Sharia Law as the foundation for the country’s new constitution, and unleashed a wave of persecution against Egypt’s Coptic Christians, in accordance with the Pact of Omar. Likewise in Syria, where the jihadist rebels have openly stated that they intend to enforce the Sharia, even as they strive to rid the country of Christians by massacring whole villages at a time. So now Turkey applies anew the Conditions of Omar to eradicate the last vestiges of Christian iconography.

Islam’s Iconoclasm and the War Against Christians - Raymond Ibrahim
 

tabletalk

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A purely spiritual Christianity is more like Mancheanism. Christianity is BOTH spiritual AND physical. Your own quote:
I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Acts 17:21-22.
HE USED THE ALTAR, A PHYSICAL OBJECT to teach about God, but you don't get it. Paul was wrong according to you.

Deut. 4:15 – from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 – of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 – hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 – God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 – for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 – God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 – Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 – it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 – David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 – the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 – Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 – the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.

Images have been used since the 1st century to teach the illiterate, which was 95%+ of the population. Paleo-Christian art in the catacombs still exists, but you have nothing to do with the Christians that put it there. Pity.

One of the great sorrows — after the church attacks, murders, abductions, rapes and forced conversions — caused by the Islamic persecution of Christians must be the defilement of holy icons by Muslims. Indeed, it is highly probable that the iconoclast heresy which rocked Christianity in the seventh through the ninth centuries was triggered or accelerated by the brutal and sudden rise of Islam after the death of Muhammad in 632A.D.

Even after the Seventh Ecumenical Council upheld the use of icons (in 787), the iconoclasts continued to trouble the Church, led by the emperor Theophilus. But after his death, in 842 the icons were permanently restored, and continue to be a defining characteristic of the Orthodox Church and all the Eastern Christian communions (the Coptic Church, Assyrian and Chaldean churches, etc.).

Islam is strongly set against images of any kind, although one may encounter in rare Islamic books depictions of Muhammad and his earliest companions, or Muhammad being visited by the spirit-being supposed to be the archangel Gabriel. But when it comes to Christian images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, or the saints, Islam is the “icon smasher” extraordinaire. (“Icon smasher” is a literal translation of “iconoclast.”)

In the Christian lands conquered by Muslims from the seventh century onwards, only a small percentage of churches were left to serve the indigenous Christian population. Those churches not destroyed were converted into mosques, their frescoes and mosaics painted or covered over, or, if they were panel icons, hacked into pieces and burned.

Naming and confronting Islam’s profound, innate hatred of traditional Christianity’s holy images helps us grasp the deeper motivations behind the recent push to re-convert all the Hagia Sophia churches of Turkey into mosques, including and especially the great Hagia Sophia of Constantinople (Istanbul) built by the Emperor Justinian in 537A.D.

The restoration of the original Christian frescoes and mosaics, revealing once again the holy images of Christ, His Mother, and the Saints, is the ultimate theological affront to the Islamic supremacist mind. It is the icons themselves — which proclaim the Christian faith in Jesus Christ as the incarnate Word of God, and therefore God Himself — that outrage Muslims as the worst possible sin, that of shirk, the association of another with Allah, whom Muslims believe to be far beyond having a son or any other in association with him.

Because of this hyper-charged, religiously-based hatred of Christianity’s holy images, with the re-Islamicization of Turkey we see special emphasis on once again covering (or even destroying) all Christian icons, most readily accomplished by simply converting all the Hagia Sophia churches into mosques. This is in fact a modern application of the Pact of Omar, the classic conditions imposed by Muslims on conquered Christians from the 7th century on.

This is the same phenomenon that we saw in Egypt, as the Muslim Brotherhood sought to implement Sharia Law as the foundation for the country’s new constitution, and unleashed a wave of persecution against Egypt’s Coptic Christians, in accordance with the Pact of Omar. Likewise in Syria, where the jihadist rebels have openly stated that they intend to enforce the Sharia, even as they strive to rid the country of Christians by massacring whole villages at a time. So now Turkey applies anew the Conditions of Omar to eradicate the last vestiges of Christian iconography.

Islam’s Iconoclasm and the War Against Christians - Raymond Ibrahim



He said: "Even after the Seventh Ecumenical Council upheld the use of icons (in 787),..."
It did more than uphold the use of icons; anathemas were decreed for those who would reject the veneration of icons.

From the Seventh Ecumenical Council:
Anathemas concerning holy images

1. If anyone does not confess that Christ our God can be represented in his humanity, let him be anathema.

2. If anyone does not accept representation in art of evangelical scenes, let him be anathema.

3. If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.

4. If anyone rejects any written or unwritten tradition of the church, let him be anathema.
 
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Invisibilis

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A while ago I was curious to know what image I have in mind of the face of Christ, so I drew one. It didn't seem to fit what I hoped for, so I drew another. That too did not help. Then I realized that my ideal image of a perfect human could not be drawn by an imperfect one. No matter how I draw the face of Christ it won't be good enough.

So I decided to create a collage of faces of Christ in the hope of conveying the idea that Christ's image cannot be nailed down (so to speak). The collage, not yet completed, has 32 drawn faces. Each on a small piece of paper.

Image taken out do to offended members.

I know that non of these, or any I draw, will have any resemblance of the face of Christ. If somebody else decides to pick one out and think that looks close, it is purely a biased opinion based on what they already have been inundated with. Actually, I hope nobody will be satisfied with any of them.
 
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Job

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Deuteronomy 27
15 ‘Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’



What is it that causes men to ignore such a warning?

Or this one.

Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,



What causes someone to treat these pieces of scripture as if they didn't exist?

Perhaps someone who disagrees with these passages can explain their reasoning. I would truly like to know.

.
 

Invisibilis

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...What is it that causes men to ignore such a warning?...What causes someone to treat these pieces of scripture as if they didn't exist?
Perhaps someone who disagrees with these passages can explain their reasoning. I would truly like to know...
Much imaging is symbolic. The symbol reminds those who see it to consider that it conveys. An image of Christ coneys, for a Christian, the way, the truth, and the life. For a non-Christian, it is just another person, and some non-Christians actually think that the Christian worships just a person, because they don't understand.

The scriptures pointed out by you are for those who don't understand. Much like a parable, the message conveys the truth; but for those who are not concerned about the spirit cannot discern them. If a person has no concern for English then an English word image would seem gibberish, but those who are concerned for English do not see the word image as such, but its meaning.
 

epostle1

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He said: "Even after the Seventh Ecumenical Council upheld the use of icons (in 787),..."
It did more than uphold the use of icons; anathemas were decreed for those who would reject the veneration of icons.

From the Seventh Ecumenical Council:
Anathemas concerning holy images

1. If anyone does not confess that Christ our God can be represented in his humanity, let him be anathema.

2. If anyone does not accept representation in art of evangelical scenes, let him be anathema.

3. If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.

4. If anyone rejects any written or unwritten tradition of the church, let him be anathema.
Because emperors and their armies were smashing them just like John Calvin. You offer no historical context. This was a very complex period in history and you can't get an idea what things were like in 787 by posting 4 points that rides on most peoples ignorance. Protestantism doesn't have councils. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.
 

epostle1

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A while ago I was curious to know what image I have in mind of the face of Christ, so I drew one. It didn't seem to fit what I hoped for, so I drew another. That too did not help. Then I realized that my ideal image of a perfect human could not be drawn by an imperfect one. No matter how I draw the face of Christ it won't be good enough.

So I decided to create a collage of faces of Christ in the hope of conveying the idea that Christ's image cannot be nailed down (so to speak). The collage, not yet completed, has 32 drawn faces. Each on a small piece of paper.

xr3t7wT.jpg


I know that non of these, or any I draw, will have any resemblance of the face of Christ. If somebody else decides to pick one out and think that looks close, it is purely a biased opinion based on what they already have been inundated with. Actually, I hope nobody will be satisfied with any of them.
I am satisfied with all of them. Keep up the good work. The end result doesn't matter, it's the process that counts the most.
 

Job

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Much imaging is symbolic. The symbol reminds those who see it to consider that it conveys. An image of Christ coneys, for a Christian, the way, the truth, and the life.

How can an image that the word of God calls corruptible convey such a message? Where is the truth in deception?

I look forward to your explanation.
 

Job

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The scriptures pointed out by you are for those who don't understand. Much like a parable, the message conveys the truth; but for those who are not concerned about the spirit cannot discern them.


Here is one the scriptures in question. If you don't mind, I would like to hear your interpretation. In doing so, perhaps I can gain some understanding.

Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.



.
 

Invisibilis

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Here is one the scriptures in question. If you don't mind, I would like to hear your interpretation. In doing so, perhaps I can gain some understanding.

Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
How did you change the glory of the incorruptible God into a corruptible man?
God made us in His image, yet it is you who sees the corruption.

My above example was to show that no drawn image was going to be good enough, yet you chose to see that I am implying that it is.
It is relative to how each person sees the image. After all, we are totally responsible for our own thoughts and actions.
God discerns what is in my heart, not you. And God will discern what is in your heart too.
So don't worry about me, but worry about what corruption (untruths) you harbor for yourself.
 

FHII

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Recently, on an other forum, I expressed a desire to start painting and create Christian art. Immediately I was warned that any artworks of Christ etc was a form of idolatry. Upon reading the responses I felt, from my old nature, ashamed for wanting to express my love and wonder for the Truth.

What are your thoughts about this?

My thoughts are that there isn't anything wrong with it. I like to draw mostly with pencil. Im not that good (i think). But most of what I do is with Christ in mind.

If someone draws a pic or painting of Jesus, I habe mixed emotions since we don't really know what he looked like. Maybe he isn't 5'11". Red or blond hair with a short beard. What if he was a short black man? Makes no difference to me.

But the art is in your work and labor. Let it be in truth! And whayever talents you have, no greater gift can be given than using it for his glory!
 
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Job

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How did you change the glory of the incorruptible God into a corruptible man?
God made us in His image, yet it is you who sees the corruption.


Actually it was Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who said it was corruptible. All I did was bring this to the attention of others.
 

Job

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God discerns what is in my heart, not you. And God will discern what is in your heart too.
So don't worry about me, but worry about what corruption (untruths) you harbor for yourself.


I may not be able to read the contents of your heart, but I can see what you're doing is contrary to the scriptures.


Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,




Do you see the part there that says it's an act of corruption to make these things? Male or female?

.
 

Invisibilis

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...
Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,

Do you see the part there that says it's an act of corruption to make these things? Male or female?
I am not acting corruptly.
Recently, on an other forum, I expressed a desire to start painting and create Christian art. Immediately I was warned that any artworks of Christ etc was a form of idolatry. Upon reading the responses I felt, from my old nature, ashamed for wanting to express my love and wonder for the Truth.

What are your thoughts about this?
Thank you for your thoughts about this.
May God bless you.
 
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