Why do some Christians see Christian art as idolatry?
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Ah yes!
Could those be on the verge... ?
Could these be described as a step higher than the fiery serpent sent by God but was then later worshiped by the people?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
This is the art I'm referring to.
Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
Do you see it?
Thank you all for your responses. They have stilled my 'old nature' about fearing criticism.
I will take up painting sometime early next year. At the moment I am busy with another project.
I have painted before, when I was young. Have painted sporadically since then (one or two paintings every ten years). The last two were Christian art. But time is running out for me and it would be a shame to not express my love for Truth, via painting, before it's time to go.
I will take up painting sometime early next year. At the moment I am busy with another project.
I have painted before, when I was young. Have painted sporadically since then (one or two paintings every ten years). The last two were Christian art. But time is running out for me and it would be a shame to not express my love for Truth, via painting, before it's time to go.
Helen
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Hippie service?
Close..we were in a sonship movement...and were indeed living in community.... how did you guess! LOL
In my 54 years I think I have almost "seen it all"...
We honor saints in heaven because they have attained the likeness (eikon / image) of God (2 Cor 3:18); “spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb 12:23). This is why we venerate them, because they reflect God’s glory and are His vessels. The painter is praised when his masterpiece is praised. It is His work. The saints are God’s workmanship, not man’s. Paul tells us to “imitate” him, which is a concept, it seems to me, similar to “honoring” or “veneration” (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9); and this is because he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6). We are exhorted to honor and imitate the “heroes of the faith” in Hebrews 6:12 and chapter 11.
"...In other words, mere blocks of stone or wood (“them”) are not to be worshiped, as that is gross idolatry, and the inanimate objects are not God. This does not absolutely preclude, however, the notion of an icon, where God is worshiped with the help of a visual aid.
The Jews were right, according to what had been revealed to them at that early stage of salvation and redemptive history. God had to hammer into them the fact that He was different than man. The pagan gods were notable for their similarity to men. But Yahweh (the Father) is a spirit, and has no body. So idols were absolutely forbidden because
1) they competed with the true god, and
2) implied that God the Father was material.
Idolatry has always been forbidden, to Christians as well as Jews. The use of images is not in the same category, if they are rightly used. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is described four times in the Bible, by the Apostle Paul, as the image (Greek: eikon) of God. Twice, he uses the word directly of Jesus (2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15), and twice in the sense of Christians being transformed into or conformed to the image of Jesus/God (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 4:4). This changes everything. The incarnation made images permissible, as long as they were representing Jesus, the “image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15; KJV, RSV).
Images for creatures such as Mary or Michael the archangel are merely representations, for the sake of honor or veneration. That is not adoration, or worship, which is reserved for God alone, in Catholic and Orthodox theology, as well as in Protestant. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant about our theology. Asking a saint to intercede is not worship; it is no different than asking another Christian on earth to intercede. The saints in heaven are alive, as clearly seen in the book of Revelation. They are portrayed as being quite aware of what is going on, on earth.
Idolatry is a matter of disobedience in the heart towards the one true God. We don’t always need an image to have an idol. Most idols today are non-visual: money, sex, lust for power, convenience, our own pride or intellects; there are all sorts of idols. Anything that replaces God as the most important thing in our life and the universe, is an idol. Idolatry is a heart issue.
Just last week, I saw a woman at church kneeling before a statue of Jesus in the agony of the Garden of Gethsemane. Some people might be so foolish as to say that she was worshiping an idol of plaster. But it is quite obvious that she was worshiping Jesus, Who was made more real to her (in concrete terms) by having a visual representation, which helps to focus spirituality and concentration on the object.
If the statue had been of Mary, then no doubt many Protestants would think she was worshiping a creature. Not so. She would be venerating Mary, or asking her to pray for her. As long as God is worshiped, it is irrelevant if a visual representation is used or not. And if the image is of a creature, that is an aid to help us ask for their intercession, and to honor them and ponder their holy lives. It is important to point out the distinction between idolatry and proper use of images for the purpose of worship (of God) or veneration (of saints).
It is 99.99% certain that this woman was worshiping Jesus. One would have to be dumb as a box of nails to sit there and look at a statue of Jesus (already being a Christian and believing in the Creed) and worship a piece of plaster. This is such an outrageous assertion on the part of those who make it that it shouldn’t even be entitled to the dignity of a reply. But it is made all the time, so apologists must deal with it, even though it is groundless in almost all cases that the charge is made.
Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, & Idolatry (An Exposition)
Oldest known painting of Jesus on his mother's lap.
Catacombs 150 AD
The dampness, soft rock and age account for the severe deterioration.
"...In other words, mere blocks of stone or wood (“them”) are not to be worshiped, as that is gross idolatry, and the inanimate objects are not God. This does not absolutely preclude, however, the notion of an icon, where God is worshiped with the help of a visual aid.
The Jews were right, according to what had been revealed to them at that early stage of salvation and redemptive history. God had to hammer into them the fact that He was different than man. The pagan gods were notable for their similarity to men. But Yahweh (the Father) is a spirit, and has no body. So idols were absolutely forbidden because
1) they competed with the true god, and
2) implied that God the Father was material.
Idolatry has always been forbidden, to Christians as well as Jews. The use of images is not in the same category, if they are rightly used. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is described four times in the Bible, by the Apostle Paul, as the image (Greek: eikon) of God. Twice, he uses the word directly of Jesus (2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15), and twice in the sense of Christians being transformed into or conformed to the image of Jesus/God (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 4:4). This changes everything. The incarnation made images permissible, as long as they were representing Jesus, the “image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15; KJV, RSV).
Images for creatures such as Mary or Michael the archangel are merely representations, for the sake of honor or veneration. That is not adoration, or worship, which is reserved for God alone, in Catholic and Orthodox theology, as well as in Protestant. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant about our theology. Asking a saint to intercede is not worship; it is no different than asking another Christian on earth to intercede. The saints in heaven are alive, as clearly seen in the book of Revelation. They are portrayed as being quite aware of what is going on, on earth.
Idolatry is a matter of disobedience in the heart towards the one true God. We don’t always need an image to have an idol. Most idols today are non-visual: money, sex, lust for power, convenience, our own pride or intellects; there are all sorts of idols. Anything that replaces God as the most important thing in our life and the universe, is an idol. Idolatry is a heart issue.
Just last week, I saw a woman at church kneeling before a statue of Jesus in the agony of the Garden of Gethsemane. Some people might be so foolish as to say that she was worshiping an idol of plaster. But it is quite obvious that she was worshiping Jesus, Who was made more real to her (in concrete terms) by having a visual representation, which helps to focus spirituality and concentration on the object.
If the statue had been of Mary, then no doubt many Protestants would think she was worshiping a creature. Not so. She would be venerating Mary, or asking her to pray for her. As long as God is worshiped, it is irrelevant if a visual representation is used or not. And if the image is of a creature, that is an aid to help us ask for their intercession, and to honor them and ponder their holy lives. It is important to point out the distinction between idolatry and proper use of images for the purpose of worship (of God) or veneration (of saints).
It is 99.99% certain that this woman was worshiping Jesus. One would have to be dumb as a box of nails to sit there and look at a statue of Jesus (already being a Christian and believing in the Creed) and worship a piece of plaster. This is such an outrageous assertion on the part of those who make it that it shouldn’t even be entitled to the dignity of a reply. But it is made all the time, so apologists must deal with it, even though it is groundless in almost all cases that the charge is made.
Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, & Idolatry (An Exposition)
Oldest known painting of Jesus on his mother's lap.
Catacombs 150 AD
The dampness, soft rock and age account for the severe deterioration.
101G
Well-Known Member
We don't NEED visual aids, they just help elevate the mind to the supernatural, to worship God, not to the object. Please read post #29.
We honor saints in heaven because they have attained the likeness (eikon / image) of God (2 Cor 3:18); “spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb 12:23). This is why we venerate them, because they reflect God’s glory and are His vessels. The painter is praised when his masterpiece is praised. It is His work. The saints are God’s workmanship, not man’s. Paul tells us to “imitate” him, which is a concept, it seems to me, similar to “honoring” or “veneration” (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9); and this is because he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6). We are exhorted to honor and imitate the “heroes of the faith” in Hebrews 6:12 and chapter 11.
Protestants generally don't honor any "heroes of the faith" because they don't see themselves as one family with heaven.
If statues and paintings disturb you it's not us with the problem.
Radical iconoclasm was half the Protestant revolt and it isn't biblical, as I have demonstrated. (largely the influence of John Calvin)
We honor saints in heaven because they have attained the likeness (eikon / image) of God (2 Cor 3:18); “spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb 12:23). This is why we venerate them, because they reflect God’s glory and are His vessels. The painter is praised when his masterpiece is praised. It is His work. The saints are God’s workmanship, not man’s. Paul tells us to “imitate” him, which is a concept, it seems to me, similar to “honoring” or “veneration” (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9); and this is because he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6). We are exhorted to honor and imitate the “heroes of the faith” in Hebrews 6:12 and chapter 11.
Protestants generally don't honor any "heroes of the faith" because they don't see themselves as one family with heaven.
If statues and paintings disturb you it's not us with the problem.
Radical iconoclasm was half the Protestant revolt and it isn't biblical, as I have demonstrated. (largely the influence of John Calvin)
Richard_oti
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- Mar 17, 2008
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Close..we were in a sonship movement...and were indeed living in community.... how did you guess! LOL
In my 54 years I think I have almost "seen it all"...
Keyword: "Almost" <chuckle>
101G
Well-Known Member
I read post #29, U said this, "It is 99.99% certain that this woman was worshiping Jesus. One would have to be dumb as a box of nails to sit there and look at a statue of Jesus (already being a Christian and believing in the Creed) and worship a piece of plaster".
so why have the statue of Jesus in the first place?.
your statement here contradict your post 29, "We don't NEED visual aids, they just help elevate the mind to the supernatural". don't you suppose to have the supernatural one in you already?.
#2 why not just worship God, and not a reflection of God. see John 4:23 & 24
#3. imitate the apostle Paul?. Acts 17:22-25 "Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, (STOP and think about this one), as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things".
as you said, "if used right", this I agree. but status?........
. but I will not Judge anyone. peace in Christ jesus.
It's a reminder of the real Jesus, and that reminder leads the mind to God. Does a picture of your mother remind you of her or is the picture itself your mother??? That is just as absurd as your objection to paintings and statues.
When you pray to God, do you pray to yourself?
We can and we do. See for yourself at any Mass.
Do you honestly think statues and paintings is God's temple made with human hands? You seem to be implying it.#3. imitate the apostle Paul?. Acts 17:22-25 "Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, (STOP and think about this one), as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things".
as you said, "if used right", this I agree. but status?........
peace in Christ jesus.
For t he millionth time, Catholics don't worship anything but God.
That''s not the imitation I was referring to, and you are being arrogant.
Paul tells us to “imitate” him, which is a concept, it seems to me, similar to “honoring” or “veneration” (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9); and this is because he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6). for the 2nd time. Is that not enough proof text for ya?
Where the Lord dwells has NOTHING to do with paintings and statues, they are not the heavenly temple. Paul was evangelizing pagans IN TERMS THEY COULD UNDERSTAND which has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand. Notice he did not condemn the en-scripted altar, HE USED THE ALTAR, A PHYSICAL OBJECT to teach about God, which is anathema to iconoclastic Protestants.
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Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
This is the image that Paul is talking about. The corruptible man that countless multitudes claim as their Savior. Without realizing it, these people are putting their faith in a lifeless image that they believe will save them in the end. That belief could very well cost them everything.
God is not an oil painting nor is He chunk of stone. The bible clearly states that the physical appearance of Jesus is unknown.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Jesus is an invisible Spirit that will not be revealed until the end.
That popular image of Jesus is an impostor. The sole purpose of an impostor is to deceive. Anyone who believes that image is harmless is being deceived and that deception could very well condemn them to a very unpleasant eternity.
Remember, Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven".
That passage from Romans 1 is a part of the word of God and should not be ignored. The Lord saw fit to include that passage in His scriptures and it should be incumbent upon us to adhere to those scriptures.
It isn't that difficult.
1 John 5
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
This is the image that Paul is talking about. The corruptible man that countless multitudes claim as their Savior. Without realizing it, these people are putting their faith in a lifeless image that they believe will save them in the end. That belief could very well cost them everything.
God is not an oil painting nor is He chunk of stone. The bible clearly states that the physical appearance of Jesus is unknown.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Jesus is an invisible Spirit that will not be revealed until the end.
That popular image of Jesus is an impostor. The sole purpose of an impostor is to deceive. Anyone who believes that image is harmless is being deceived and that deception could very well condemn them to a very unpleasant eternity.
Remember, Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven".
That passage from Romans 1 is a part of the word of God and should not be ignored. The Lord saw fit to include that passage in His scriptures and it should be incumbent upon us to adhere to those scriptures.
It isn't that difficult.
1 John 5
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
.
tabletalk
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Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
This is the image that Paul is talking about. The corruptible man that countless multitudes claim as their Savior. Without realizing it, these people are putting their faith in a lifeless image that they believe will save them in the end. That belief could very well cost them everything.
God is not an oil painting nor is He chunk of stone. The bible clearly states that the physical appearance of Jesus is unknown.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Jesus is an invisible Spirit that will not be revealed until the end.
That popular image of Jesus is an impostor. The sole purpose of an impostor is to deceive. Anyone who believes that image is harmless is being deceived and that deception could very well condemn them to a very unpleasant eternity.
Remember, Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven".
That passage from Romans 1 is a part of the word of God and should not be ignored. The Lord saw fit to include that passage in His scriptures and it should be incumbent upon us to adhere to those scriptures.
It isn't that difficult.
1 John 5
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
.
"God is not an oil painting nor is He chunk of stone."
Agreed.
He's not a piece of bread nor is He a cup of wine, either. People who have talked with "Jesus" face to face, whether on Earth or in Heaven, should be careful of participating in the same idolatry.
VictoryinJesus
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That is not exactly true. Reguarding Jesus' physical appearance, the Bible tells us what He was not: Isaiah 53:2-3
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all. please don't get me wrong kepha31, I 'm not arguing ok, but I have my mother PICTURE in my heart all the time as well as my father's picture. they both have been gone a very long time and they are fresh as yesterday in my mind heart and soul. I have never seen my saviour face, but he is as fresh in my heart, soul, and mind as my parents are. and I never seen him face to face. but I'm reminded of him everyday when someone or my self do a good deed to one another. this is his face until I see him for myself. a Kodak moment on a child face when they are feed to relieve their hungry is the face of my saviour. I don't need a statue to remind me, people do. for my God is a LIVING and BREATHING God. for when I do unto them I have done it unto him. no marble, clay, or wood is needed. but if it helps you, who am I to say.
I pray with him. it's our private talk together. and sometime he intercedes on my behalf
. because I don't know sometime what to talk about. it called a relationship. try it.well why don't you get rid of those millions of statues?. well.........
I'm not being arrogant, you said that.........
. anyway, why veneration, just "Love one another as he have LOVED us". no need to put anyone up on a pedestal, but God. examples are good to follow, why not follow the best example. if you want to imitate Paul, listen, 1 Corinthians 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ". understand, when we were children we all wanted to be like someone else, but, 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things". now look in the bible and see how many time he referred to christian as children. get the point........well God dwells in Earthen vessel, or earthen temples, better known as "US" and not the u.s. as in united states.....
, ok , a little humor there. but we're the temple of the LIVING TRUE and ONLY GOD.conclusion: put away these childish thing, get rid of that security blanket. be weaned from the dry breast.
Peace in Christ Jesus.
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