Why Old Eschatologies Should Be Updated

[covenantee]

It's amazing. Some here want to argue that the genetic element in the Jewish People means that cannot be important in their Salvation! But God's Promise made it important--regardless of how diluted the Jewish People have become with the introduction of many Gentiles into their mix. It was a religious compromise, but it did not end the Jewish People.

It is correct that God is non-discriminatory in the sense that His Salvation is not partial to only one race. It has *never* been partial to only the Jewish People. What is discriminatory, however, is not a matter of bigotry. You must always discriminate, in Contract Law, the parties who are under contract with one another. To say *who they are* isn't important completely invalidates the agreement.

God made a contract with the Jewish People, and it was in fact important that they were Jews when considering that they specifically were a party to the contract. The same thing is true under the New Covenant--God has made a contract with various ethnicities, and each ethnicity is important when considering each contractual relationship. It is important that they be Germans when God has contracted to save those among the German people. It is important that Germany as a nation be identified as such if God makes a contract with the German nation.

This is not bigotry. Neither is "being Jewish." It is just a factor identifying who it is God is contracting with. Salvation is impartial, but it is certainly important that God has promised to save the Jewish People from extinction. It wouldn't be relevant if God saved the German People from extinction and allowed the Jewish People to be extinguished!

God's promises are in fact important. The specifics and details should not be discarded simply because God is non-bigoted and against partiality. Identifying each party among several parties is the opposite of bigotry. The fact there are more than a single party being saved means there has been no partiality. But identifying a particular ethnicity and nationality is important for purposes of identifying who is being saved from extinction in each instance.

God's New Testament is both a contract and a will.

As a contract, it is based exclusively and entirely upon faith and obedience, to the exclusion of any other criteria such as race or culture.

As a will, it is the fulfillment of all of the promises of God in and by His Son.

Simple but profound.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God's New Testament is both a contract and a will.

As a contract, it is based exclusively and entirely upon faith and obedience, to the exclusion of any other criteria such as race or culture.

As a will, it is the fulfillment of all of the promises of God in and by His Son.

Simple but profound.

You've said precisely nothing in this argument. So there's nothing to respond to.

I suggest you consider the difference I've posed between God's promise and God's salvation? God promised to deliver from extinction certain nations and ethnicities as a part of the process leading individuals to accept Christ. If God promised such things, the fact they are not in themselves "Salvation" does not make them any less important at achieving this.

Again, it does not help your argument to state that the "Jewish People" and all of humanity are interchangeable concepts. No number of "internet resources" will prove that. You are just basing your argument on a point that is completely irrelevant in my own argument. I am *not* arguing a supposed identification of "Jews" based on DNA alone!

Rather, I've argued, consistently, that being 'Jewish" is a matter of being identified with a racial group, ie a group in a social context. Diverting to some false notion of "Jewish blood being comingled in the human race" has no bearing, and is clearly a diversion.

On the other hand, identifying certain groups who God has made promises to renders their national and ethnic identity crucial to proving God as faithful to His word. Again, such promises lead to non-bigoted acts of Salvation among many nations and ethnicities. So your argument against ethnicity as "bigoted" is invalid.

 

[covenantee]

You've said precisely nothing in this argument. So there's nothing to respond to.

I suggest you consider the difference I've posed between God's promise and God's salvation? God promised to deliver from extinction certain nations and ethnicities as a part of the process leading individuals to accept Christ. If God promised such things, the fact they are not in themselves "Salvation" does not make them any less important at achieving this.

Again, it does not help your argument to state that the "Jewish People" and all of humanity are interchangeable concepts. No number of "internet resources" will prove that. You are just basing your argument on a point that is completely irrelevant in my own argument. I am *not* arguing a supposed identification of "Jews" based on DNA alone!

Rather, I've argued, consistently, that being 'Jewish" is a matter of being identified with a racial group, ie a group in a social context. Diverting to some false notion of "Jewish blood being comingled in the human race" has no bearing, and is clearly a diversion.

I've said everything needing to be said.

Awaiting your evidence disproving any of mine.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've said everything needing to be said.

Awaiting your evidence disproving any of mine.

You haven't even been willing to show any understanding about what I said about this. Why should I disprove a diversion away from the argument?

I've not once said that any one particular race hasn't intermarried or interacted with other races, changing the composition of DNA on each occasion. Apparently you don't wish to deal with the real argument and cover the real argument with fake arguments?

 

[Trekson]

Genesis is a book of prophecy, what planet do you live on

Every person who is saved is a direct decendant of Abraham through Jesus Christ, "Father Abraham"

Genesis 26:4KJV
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

A couple of prophetic verses does not a book of prophecy make. Most folks know that there are 5 major books of prophecy and 12 minor ones. If your only argument is Genesis which is no ones list of prophetic books then you know I'm right.

 

[covenantee]

You haven't even been willing to show any understanding about what I said about this. Why should I disprove a diversion away from the argument?

I've not once said that any one particular race hasn't intermarried or interacted with other races, changing the composition of DNA on each occasion. Apparently you don't wish to deal with the real argument and cover the real argument with fake arguments?

I'll now let our readers draw their own conclusions.

 

[Trekson]

Scripture's first prophecy.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Every book in the bible most likely contains a prophecy or two or at least some sort of prophetic type

Scripture's first prophecy.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Every book in the bible most likely contains a prophecy or two or at least a prophetic type but most folks are aware that there are 5 major prophecy books and 12 minor books and genesis isn't in anyone's list of prophetic books.

 

[Trekson]

Old eschatologies, if changed or not, are changed by the spirit of God. Men are not actually in control of God's word, He is. The word of God is God's providence alone. No man is in a position to do anything more with eschatologies than is allowed them.

What that means, is that the changes that do or do not change--are intended by God, regardless of men.

Now...does that mean that one who is moved by the spirit of God should not freely give what has been given to them? Of course not, but such things come both for and against what is true with God, for the purpose that it is given by God. Sometimes that means good men of God giving what is true, sometimes giving what is not true; and sometimes that means ungodly men giving what is true and good or evil. For this reason we have been advised to test every spirit.

It is hard to imagine, but the reality of every generation needing to have an equal opportunity to face good and evil in their time of decision, means all of this and more.

Actually God's future plans or what we call eschatology were basically engraved in stone from the foundation of the world and won't change. What does change and evolve over time is our understanding of His future plans.

 

[covenantee]

Every book in the bible most likely contains a prophecy or two or at least some sort of prophetic type

Every book in the bible most likely contains a prophecy or two or at least a prophetic type but most folks are aware that there are 5 major prophecy books and 12 minor books and genesis isn't in anyone's list of prophetic books.

According to this compilation, Genesis contains more prophecies about Christ than do the majority of the minor prophets.

Prophecy is prophecy wherever it appears.

 

[ScottA]

Actually God's future plans or what we call eschatology were basically engraved in stone from the foundation of the world and won't change. What does change and evolve over time is our understanding of His future plans.

True. But if we are to press in more, it must be understood that being stated as "before the foundation of the world" means there is no actual future, but actually just the mere revelation of all that is already true.

The common mistake that is made, is to think that because we are last to know, means the things that have yet been revealed to us personally, are yet future...as if it were God who is just getting up to speed, rather than us.

 

[Trekson]

According to this compilation, Genesis contains more prophecies about Christ than do the majority of the minor prophets.

Prophecy is prophecy wherever it appears.

If Genesis is the only argument one has against the prophecies of 17 "prophetic" books in the bible, then your case is decidedly lost.

 

[Trekson]

True. But if we are to press in more, it must be understood that being stated as "before the foundation of the world" means there is no actual future, but actually just the mere revelation of all that is already true.

The common mistake that is made, is to think that because we are last to know, means the things that have yet been revealed to us personally, are yet future...as if it were God who is just getting up to speed, rather than us.

While we are in our earthly perspective of time, futurism is a reality and that won't change until we also are dwelling in heaven and no I don't think anyone has thought..."as if it were God who is just getting up to speed, rather than us."

 

[Trekson]

God's New Testament is both a contract and a will.

As a contract, it is based exclusively and entirely upon faith and obedience, to the exclusion of any other criteria such as race or culture.

As a will, it is the fulfillment of all of the promises of God in and by His Son.

Simple but profound.

That's not true, the land promises were not part of the old covenant, nor are they part of the new. They are/were each separate covenants unto themselves.

 

[Keraz]

It's amazing. Some here want to argue that the genetic element in the Jewish People means that cannot be important in their Salvation! But God's Promise made it important--regardless of how diluted the Jewish People have become with the introduction of many Gentiles into their mix. It was a religious compromise, but it did not end the Jewish People.

The Prophesies regarding this descent issue, say that who His chosen people are today, is His secret. Amos 9:8-12
It is a secret that we cannot know for sure, but we can discern who qualifies, by who does what Jesus lists in Matthew 25:31-45

Regarding the Jewish citizens of the State of Israel, the historical record of how in ancient times, Edomites, the Kharzaria peoples and now all the wannabe's from Africa and India, who have gained citizenship.
There are, in fact; very few so called; Jews, with a genuine, provable claim to that ancestry. Prophecy plainly states their fate. Isaiah 22:14

 

[Keraz]

That's not true, the land promises were not part of the old covenant, nor are they part of the new. They are/were each separate covenants unto themselves.

You should try actually reading your Bible:

Entering the Promised Land:
Isaiah 62:10 Hoist a signal to the peoples, clear a road, go out you people of Zion.

Isaiah 49:11-12 I shall make a highway for My people, they come from every direction.

Isaiah 40:1-4 Comfort My people, their penalty is paid. Prepare a highway through the waste lands, make smooth the way.

Isaiah 11:11-12 On that Day, the Lord will recover the remnant of His people from the four corners of the world.

Ezekiel 37:21-22 I am going to take the Israelites from their places of exile around the world, assemble them and restore them to their own soil. Israel and Judah will rejoin and one leader will rule over them all. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

Micah 2:12 I shall assemble the whole House of Jacob and gather you like sheep into a sheep yard, the Lord will lead the way. The same as before: 1 Corinthians 10:4

Ezekiel 34:11-12 Now I will search for My sheep...where they are scattered on the Day of wrath.

Hosea 8:10 I will now round up My people....

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people, from all the countries they are in and bring them back to live in Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Isaiah 60:1-9 Jerusalem, your Light will shine on you, your sons and daughters are coming back to you. Vessels assemble to bring your children from far away.

Jeremiah 16:15-16 I shall hunt for My people from wherever they are now dispersed and bring them back to the Land that I gave to their forefathers.

Zechariah 10:8-10 I shall whistle to call in My people, for I have delivered them and they will be as many as they used to be. Though dispersed among the nations, they will remember Me. I will lead them into the Land until there is no more room for them.

Isaiah 52:11-12 Go out of Babylon, [the ungodly nations] keep yourselves pure, you will not leave like fugitives or in urgent haste. The Lord will go before you, to guide and guard you.

Isaiah 66:20 From every nation you will be brought, on every kind of transport...

Isaiah 35:8-10 A highway will appear, the Way of Holiness, by that way all those the Lord has redeemed will enter Zion, with shouts of triumph and great joy.

Isaiah 49:9-13 I will lead My people along paths beside streams, they will neither hunger or thirst, nor will scorching heat affect them. They come, some from far away, in every direction, on level highways, for the Lord comforts them in their distress.

Jeremiah 31:8-9 See how I bring My people from every part of the earth, the blind, lame and pregnant women among them. They are a vast company, weeping as they come home, but I shall comfort them and lead them on smooth paths.

Isaiah 30:21 A voice from behind you will tell you the right path to follow.

Isaiah 58:11-12 The Lord will be your guide and will satisfy your needs in the desert. You will rebuild the ruins, you will be called the restorers of the Land.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 I will show compassion and restore all Israel, they will live once more in their homeland, free from their enemies. I will leave none of them behind.

Ezekiel 20:42 You will know that I am the Lord, [not present as yet, before the Return of Jesus] when I bring you home to the Land of Israel. The Land I swore to give to your ancestors.

Psalm 68:7-10 Lord, You go before Your people, marching through the barren wastelands. When Your Land languishes You restore it. You send rain and there Your people settle. In Your goodness, You provide for the needy.

Hosea 2:14-23 Now, I shall woo them and lead them into the wilderness, I will restore them ......they will be My new sowing in the Land. I will say: ‘You are My people’ and they will say: ‘ You are our God’. [The Lord is not seen – the same as the 1st Exodus]

Micah 7:11-12 The Day the people return to the Land will be a Day to extend your boundaries.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 The Land will become fruitful and the whole House of Israel will settle there, they will increase, more prosperous then in ancient days. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Prophesies regarding this descent issue, say that who His chosen people are today, is His secret. Amos 9:8-12
It is a secret that we cannot know for sure, but we can discern who qualifies, by who does what Jesus lists in Matthew 25:31-45

Regarding the Jewish citizens of the State of Israel, the historical record of how in ancient times, Edomites, the Kharzaria peoples and now all the wannabe's from Africa and India, who have gained citizenship.
There are, in fact; very few so called; Jews, with a genuine, provable claim to that ancestry. Prophecy plainly states their fate. Isaiah 22:14

The whole point I was trying to make with covenantee was that DNA descent was not the lone factor. Rather, the society that comprises the Jewish People is a central factor, along with genetic origins beginning with Abraham and with the 12 tribes of Israel.

The society comprising the Jewish People today is well-known, and is less a matter of DNA testing than of tracing origins of their exile from ancient times. No matter how much mixing there has been with non-Jews, they are still called the "Jewish People," and they have held together by their common religious culture and customs.

 

[covenantee]

That's not true, the land promises were not part of the old covenant, nor are they part of the new. They are/were each separate covenants unto themselves.

They were terms and conditions of the old covenant contract between God and those who were faithful and obedient to Him.

If they had been separate covenants, we would have more than one old testament today.

 

[ewq1938]

The society comprising the Jewish People today is well-known, and is less a matter of DNA testing than of tracing origins of their exile from ancient times. No matter how much mixing there has been with non-Jews, they are still called the "Jewish People," and they have held together by their common religious culture and customs.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

 

[Randy Kluth]

They were terms and conditions of the old covenant contract between God and those who were faithful and obedient to Him.

If they had been separate covenants, we would have more than one old testament today.

I have said repeatedly that God's promises are proven to be irrevocable--you just ignore that. I quoted Paul where he indicates that the promises are distinct from the old covenant of Law--you just ignore that. The promises are tied to the new covenant of Christ, who is the basis for the fulfillment of all of God's promises.

Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

You apparently have no answer for the verse above?

 

[covenantee]

I have said repeatedly that God's promises are proven to be irrevocable--you just ignore that. I quoted Paul where he indicates that the promises are distinct from the old covenant of Law--you just ignore that. The promises are tied to the new covenant of Christ, who is the basis for the fulfillment of all of God's promises.

Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

You apparently have no answer for the verse above?

Galatians 3:17 affirms Galatians 3:16.

What answer do you have?