Will Judas Iscariot be Saved?

[ButterflyJones]

We do not know that. Judas has NOT been judged to perish in the lake of fire yet. No flesh born man has been judged to perish yet.

And we have no authority to condemn anyone to the future destruction of the "lake of fire". Only Christ Jesus has that Authority. So you need to be careful of going around saying who all is going to burn and who is not.

And in 2 Thessalonians 2 when Apostle Paul used that "son of perdition" title about a future coming false one, AFTER Judas had been dead, then just who was Paul pointing it to?

Bravo to that bold part especially. I was hoping someone would catch that. Well done.

No one is yet judged and in Hell. Revelation.
.

 

[RLT63]

Free will was never entirely free.....it was conditional, as was the continuation of life itself. The opportunity to go on living indefinitely, was dependent upon continuing to obey the Creator day after day.....an act of disobedience was like treason...a failure to honor a commitment made of our own volition to our Sovereign ruler.....loyalty and obedience to his laws was expected...no! Demanded.
What happens to those accused of treason even today? It is seen as an unforgivable sin against your ruling authority. How much more then should it apply to God?

That cannot be true Patrick....since every creative day was deemed to be a success from God's standpoint. He did not create things that are defective...he created beings who are autonomous...free willed.....even the angels, or they could not participate in evil things....as satan, his angels and the first humans demonstrated, free will can be abused, with catastrophic results. So it requires more than blind obedience because if love for God is lacking, and love of self takes over, we fall victim to what caused the original sin. (Ezekiel 28:15, 17)

The devil was a perfect angel when he was created, but he abused his free will to steal something from his Creator....man's trust, and loyalty and ultimately, his worship, since whatever does not go to the true God, goes to the pretender by default.

This is talking about the "trees" that man plants. The "trees" planted by God only bear good fruit. Man-made beliefs and traditions are what corrupts humanity in many different ways and they cause division.....the holy spirit is a uniting force and all "Christians" would therefore be united instead of the disunited rabble we see, mentioned by Jesus as the "weeds" of his parable, sown by the devil . (Matt 13:24-30, 36-42)

Faulty thinking there....Jesus was referring to the Pharisees in that passage....they were the producers of rotten fruit, misleading the entire nation of Israel down a wrong path, resulting to the vast majority acceding to the murder of their own Messiah on the say-so of these sons of the devil. Jesus said that these will not "escape the judgment of Gehenna" (Matt 23:33) and neither will Judas.

The 'lake of fire' is open and receiving those who fail to accept the truth. It is not a literal place, but simply a symbol of eternal death. Those Pharisees whom Jesus condemned will never receive a resurrection because those who are thrown into Gehenna, never wake up.....it will be as though they never existed. Why would God want to remember those who stubbornly cling to false ideas manufactured by his adversary. That is what satan is...God's chief adversary.....the one who opposes him in all things.

The devil put Job through trials that would have broken most of us, but for the sake of those who would read his story in later times, he allowed the devil to do what he knew in advance that this man's faith could stand. (1 Cor 10:13) His example is there to show us what real faith is all about....because the devil has no new tricks.

I was in agreement with most of this post except for the slur against other denominations and the disbelief in Hell

 

[Stumpmaster]

Then God created bad fruit and so Jesus was wrong when he said that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

Quite the reverse. God created a perfect angel who rebelled against Him, thus becoming bad as a result of his own personal desire as alluded to here:

Isa 14:13-14 You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north. (14) I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”

The False Prophet/Lawless One/Man of Sin/ Son of Perdition has another crack at it when the whole world seems to be under his control as prophesied here:

2Th 2:4 He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[Patrick1966]

Judas is lost forever. God said he was and is the son of perdition. Judas never biblically repented (meta-noia) he just felt bad repented (metamellomai).

Judas is lost.

If Judas is forever lost then 1 Timothy 4:10 is FALSE.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I was in agreement with most of this post except for the slur against other denominations and the disbelief in Hell

In true Christianity, there is no such thing as a denomination....God does not read labels....he acknowledges as his own, those who adhere to the teachings of his son (which in reality all came from Jehovah anyway).
If Christendom were truly "Christian" then they would all agree because God's spirit does not operate by telling one group one thing, and another group something else. There can only be one truth, not several versions of it.

The "wheat" are in the world as a global brotherhood, united in every way, and doing what Christ commanded. (Matt 28:19-20; John 1:20-21) Original Christianity was one brotherhood who all had to accept the teachings of Christ as delivered by himself and his appointed apostles. Most who identify as "Christians " today are up to their necks in politics, squabbling over doctrine, and those who think that joining the military is appropriate for Christians, would go and kill their 'brothers' of another nation if their governments told them to......what would Jesus tell them to do? (Matt 5:43-44) Christianity is not something you give lip service to, whilst ignoring what Jesus taught. There are no christian patriots.....we are citizens and servants of God's Kingdom, not any mans'.

Christians must all be "of one mind and of one line of thought" or its not from God at all. (1 Cor 1:10) Unity identifies true Christians, not division. The devil breeds division and confusion.....not God.

As for "hell", please tell me you don't subscribe to what Christendom teaches about that place....?

As a Bible Student I expected you to hold to what the Bible teaches, not what all false religion teaches about the soul.
"Hell" is "sheol/hades" a place where the dead sleep (Eccl 9:5, 10).....both the righteous and unrighteous. (Acts 24:15)
Christ promises to raise both, once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29) Those who 'sleep in death' have paid sin's wages and and Christ's sacrifice guarantees them a resurrection. But "Gehenna" is another proposition altogether.

Those consigned to "Gehenna" as Jesus said, will suffer an "everlasting" punishment ...i.e."everlasting cutting off" which to a Jew meant death.....everlasting death. Literal Gehenna was a place where garbage was disposed of, but when Jesus used it illustratively, his Jewish audience understood exactly what he meant. For those not considered worthy of a decent burial, God would not remember them in the resurrection. They would be considered human garbage......unworthy to regain life again. Christ died for all, but clearly, not ALL the goats, who are consigned to gehenna before even the devil gets to be thrown in there with his henchmen. The goats are dispatched when Christ comes to judge the world....soon now. We are in a judgment period in these 'last days' when people will have no excuses for ignoring the message that God's people have been preaching in all the world now for over 100 years. "Just like the days of Noah" Jesus said....(Matt24:3-39) All that Noah said to the people fell on deaf ears. I guess when the water started swirling around them, there would have been considerable knocking on the side of the ark with pleas to let them in....but God did not respond. Once the door was closed...that was it. It will happen like that again, only this time without the water.

It is not that we have a "disbelief in hell", but that we have a full understanding of what it meant to a Jew and therefore it would agree with all that Christ taught. Resurrection is a return to life as Jesus demonstrated with Lazarus. But what is interesting is his sisters stated expectation of her brother's future, now that he had been dead for four days......"Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:22-23)

What was her expectation? Her brother was in sheol and would rise when Christ was ruling in his Kingdom...the "last day" is the thousand year reign of Christ, bringing all 'redeemed' humanity back into reconciliation with God so that his first purpose can be reinstated. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Judas is forever lost then 1 Timothy 4:10 is FALSE.

1 Timothy 4:10...
"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (NKJV)
You are reading with emphasis on the words that support your view, but it says "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Believers will definitely get saved because they have done as Christ commanded them, but those who have lived in times or in nations where God and his word were unknown, will still receive a resurrection because they died in ignorance. God holds no one accountable who is ignorant through no fault on their part...but for those who have heard the message and rejected it in this "time of the end"...they are in the same boat as those who mocked Noah and ignored his warning. Not a soul survived the flood except those in the ark who had done all that God asked of them. God did not save Noah....he told him how to save himself and his family.

Two groups of humans will not make the grade when "the end" comes....(Matthew 24:14)

1Thess 1:6-10...
"since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed."

Can you identify those who will not gain Christ's approval?..."those who do not know God, because they do not want to know him....

and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." These know the gospel but fail to abide by it. (Matt 7:21-23)

Christianity means more than calling yourself a Christian......talk is cheap.....you have to walk the walk every day, mindful of all that Christ taught and trying on a day to day basis to live up to what that word means.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Free will was never entirely free.....it was conditional, as was the continuation of life itself. The opportunity to go on living indefinitely, was dependent upon continuing to obey the Creator day after day.....an act of disobedience was like treason...a failure to honor a commitment made of our own volition to our Sovereign ruler.....loyalty and obedience to his laws was expected...no! Demanded.
What happens to those accused of treason even today? It is seen as an unforgivable sin against your ruling authority. How much more then should it apply to God?

That cannot be true Patrick....since every creative day was deemed to be a success from God's standpoint. He did not create things that are defective...he created beings who are autonomous...free willed.....even the angels, or they could not participate in evil things....as satan, his angels and the first humans demonstrated, free will can be abused, with catastrophic results. So it requires more than blind obedience because if love for God is lacking, and love of self takes over, we fall victim to what caused the original sin. (Ezekiel 28:15, 17)

The devil was a perfect angel when he was created, but he abused his free will to steal something from his Creator....man's trust, and loyalty and ultimately, his worship, since whatever does not go to the true God, goes to the pretender by default.

This is talking about the "trees" that man plants. The "trees" planted by God only bear good fruit. Man-made beliefs and traditions are what corrupts humanity in many different ways and they cause division.....the holy spirit is a uniting force and all "Christians" would therefore be united instead of the disunited rabble we see, mentioned by Jesus as the "weeds" of his parable, sown by the devil . (Matt 13:24-30, 36-42)

Faulty thinking there....Jesus was referring to the Pharisees in that passage....they were the producers of rotten fruit, misleading the entire nation of Israel down a wrong path, resulting to the vast majority acceding to the murder of their own Messiah on the say-so of these sons of the devil. Jesus said that these will not "escape the judgment of Gehenna" (Matt 23:33) and neither will Judas.

The 'lake of fire' is open and receiving those who fail to accept the truth. It is not a literal place, but simply a symbol of eternal death. Those Pharisees whom Jesus condemned will never receive a resurrection because those who are thrown into Gehenna, never wake up.....it will be as though they never existed. Why would God want to remember those who stubbornly cling to false ideas manufactured by his adversary. That is what satan is...God's chief adversary.....the one who opposes him in all things.

The devil put Job through trials that would have broken most of us, but for the sake of those who would read his story in later times, he allowed the devil to do what he knew in advance that this man's faith could stand. (1 Cor 10:13) His example is there to show us what real faith is all about....because the devil has no new tricks.

Isaiah 45.

 

[RLT63]

In true Christianity, there is no such thing as a denomination....God does not read labels....he acknowledges as his own, those who adhere to the teachings of his son (which in reality all came from Jehovah anyway).
If Christendom were truly "Christian" then they would all agree because God's spirit does not operate by telling one group one thing, and another group something else. There can only be one truth, not several versions of it.

The "wheat" are in the world as a global brotherhood, united in every way, and doing what Christ commanded. (Matt 28:19-20; John 1:20-21) Original Christianity was one brotherhood who all had to accept the teachings of Christ as delivered by himself and his appointed apostles. Most who identify as "Christians " today are up to their necks in politics, squabbling over doctrine, and those who think that joining the military is appropriate for Christians, would go and kill their 'brothers' of another nation if their governments told them to......what would Jesus tell them to do? (Matt 5:43-44) Christianity is not something you give lip service to, whilst ignoring what Jesus taught. There are no christian patriots.....we are citizens and servants of God's Kingdom, not any mans'.

Christians must all be "of one mind and of one line of thought" or its not from God at all. (1 Cor 1:10) Unity identifies true Christians, not division. The devil breeds division and confusion.....not God.

As for "hell", please tell me you don't subscribe to what Christendom teaches about that place....?

As a Bible Student I expected you to hold to what the Bible teaches, not what all false religion teaches about the soul.
"Hell" is "sheol/hades" a place where the dead sleep (Eccl 9:5, 10).....both the righteous and unrighteous. (Acts 24:15)
Christ promises to raise both, once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29) Those who 'sleep in death' have paid sin's wages and and Christ's sacrifice guarantees them a resurrection. But "Gehenna" is another proposition altogether.

Those consigned to "Gehenna" as Jesus said, will suffer an "everlasting" punishment ...i.e."everlasting cutting off" which to a Jew meant death.....everlasting death. Literal Gehenna was a place where garbage was disposed of, but when Jesus used it illustratively, his Jewish audience understood exactly what he meant. For those not considered worthy of a decent burial, God would not remember them in the resurrection. They would be considered human garbage......unworthy to regain life again. Christ died for all, but clearly, not ALL the goats, who are consigned to gehenna before even the devil gets to be thrown in there with his henchmen. The goats are dispatched when Christ comes to judge the world....soon now. We are in a judgment period in these 'last days' when people will have no excuses for ignoring the message that God's people have been preaching in all the world now for over 100 years. "Just like the days of Noah" Jesus said....(Matt24:3-39) All that Noah said to the people fell on deaf ears. I guess when the water started swirling around them, there would have been considerable knocking on the side of the ark with pleas to let them in....but God did not respond. Once the door was closed...that was it. It will happen like that again, only this time without the water.

It is not that we have a "disbelief in hell", but that we have a full understanding of what it meant to a Jew and therefore it would agree with all that Christ taught. Resurrection is a return to life as Jesus demonstrated with Lazarus. But what is interesting is his sisters stated expectation of her brother's future, now that he had been dead for four days......"Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:22-23)

What was her expectation? Her brother was in sheol and would rise when Christ was ruling in his Kingdom...the "last day" is the thousand year reign of Christ, bringing all 'redeemed' humanity back into reconciliation with God so that his first purpose can be reinstated. (Isa 55:11)

Base everything on “what it meant to a Jew” and you will reject Jesus

 

[Patrick1966]

1 Timothy 4:10...
"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (NKJV)
You are reading with emphasis on the words that support your view, but it says "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

So Jesus doesn't actually save all people???

 

[ButterflyJones]

Base everything on “what it meant to a Jew” and you will reject Jesus

Just as they did based on that very idea.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Base everything on “what it meant to a Jew” and you will reject Jesus

Nonsense....all of Jesus’ first disciples were Jewish....only those who listened to their apostate teachers rejected Jesus and stuck to their false teachings. Those who worship the wrong god today reject him too.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So Jesus doesn't actually save all people???

He saves ALL who put faith in him. At the end of this present world system that is looming, there will only be “sheep and goats” in the world. Jesus will not care what breed of “goat” you are because all “goats” will be dispatch to the place prepared for the devil and his angels.....and we know that those cast into the lake of fire are completely and utterly destroyed. (Matt 10:28)

Now is the time we have to prove who we are......then it will be too late.
“Just like the days of Noah” Jesus said....how many survived the flood? (Matt 24:37-39)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isaiah 45.

Would you like to expand on that obscure reference.....? Specifics are easier to respond to than cryptics.
Please explain what you mean.

 

[RLT63]

Nonsense....all of Jesus’ first disciples were Jewish....only those who listened to their apostate teachers rejected Jesus and stuck to their false teachings. Those who worship the wrong god today reject him too.

According to you everyone worships the wrong God except for Jehovah’s Witnesses. With the percentage of the population you make up that means God is going to allow most people, even most Christians to perish. At least we won’t have to worry about going to Hell will we?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

 

[Aunty Jane]

According to you everyone worships the wrong God except for Jehovah’s Witnesses. With the percentage of the population you make up that means God is going to allow most people, even most Christians to perish. At least we won’t have to worry about going to Hell will we?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

This is a “cap fits” scenario.....if it is “just like the days of Noah”, then how many survived the flood? How many listened to Noah’s preaching and his warning of God’s intentions. They not only heard his words but saw what he was constructing in response to what he believed.....but they mocked him and ignored him....according to Jesus we will see this situation again.....then the words recorded in Ezekiel will ring loud and clear....throughout his prophetic book, Ezekiel, made the declaration..... “they will have to know that I am Jehovah”......which recurs like a drum beat. (Ezek 6:10) In this final judgment on satan’s world.....there will be none who will perish in ignorance....they will know who is judging them and why.

“Few” are on the road to life....remember?

 

[RLT63]

This is a “cap fits” scenario.....if it is “just like the days of Noah”, then how many survived the flood? How many listened to Noah’s preaching and his warning of God’s intentions. They not only heard his words but saw what he was constructing in response to what he believed.....but they mocked him and ignored him....according to Jesus we will see this situation again.....then the words recorded in Ezekiel will ring loud and clear....throughout his prophetic book, Ezekiel, made the declaration..... “they will have to know that I am Jehovah”......which recurs like a drum beat. (Ezek 6:10) In this final judgment on satan’s world.....there will be none who will perish in ignorance....they will know who is judging them and why.

“Few” are on the road to life....remember?

During Noah’s time the human bloodline had been corrupted by Satan’s plan and they had to be destroyed, That’s why it says Noah was perfect in his generations. His bloodline (his DNA) had not been corrupted by the sons of God so he and his family were saved. I don’t think we’re going to see fallen angels taking wives from the daughters of men this time. (Genesis 6)

 

[ButterflyJones]

Would you like to expand on that obscure reference.....? Specifics are easier to respond to than cryptics.
Please explain what you mean.

Context. Not cryptic.

If you read the chapter you'll learn God tells you he is the darkness and the light. The evil and the good.

Sin is violation of God's laws. God created the law Ergo God is the author of sin, when he codified obedience to his law, and non-compliance.

No thing is not of or from the creator.

The first sin, the first sinners were not Adam and Eve.

It was Lucifer. And those angels that joined him in the war against God in Heaven.

 

[Patrick1966]

He saves ALL who put faith in him.

So Paul worded it wrong it 1 Timothy 4:10.

 

[Aunty Jane]

During Noah’s time the human bloodline had been corrupted by Satan’s plan and they had to be destroyed, That’s why it says Noah was perfect in his generations. His bloodline (his DNA) had not been corrupted by the sons of God so he and his family were saved. I don’t think we’re going to see fallen angels taking wives from the daughters of men this time. (Genesis 6)

From the description in Genesis, and the name "nephilim", given to those monstrous hybrid beings, it is very obvious that they were NOT like other humans. They were gigantic bullies, the product of fallen materialized angels and human women, and because they were not sons of Adam, they had no right to live. Their name means "those who cause others to fall".....violence and immorality were rampant in the world because of them, necessitating drastic action on God's part. We have reached that situation again.....everything in satan's world is filled with violence and immorality, so it is time for drastic action again, and "few" will be found on the road to life.....(Matt 7:13-14) Even "many" who claim Jesus as their "Lord" will not be found "doing the will of the father". (Matt 7:21-23)

Noah found favor in God's eyes as the only righteous man alive.....he preached "righteousness" to the people all the time he was constructing the ark. (2 Peter 2:5)....and he was commissioned to build the ark before he even had children. So the addition of sons made the task a shared one, where God had provided explicit instructions for the construction of the vessel that would preserve Adam's line......the ones that his son would be sent to redeem.
After the flood the disobedient spirits returned to the spirit realm where God took away their ability to materialize.....and they were kept in the dark about many things.
But the flood story was illustrative of something bigger to come....

2 Peter 2:4-6....
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come."

Are we left in any doubt? I'm not.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Context. Not cryptic.

If you read the chapter you'll learn God tells you he is the darkness and the light. The evil and the good.

Isaiah 45 is directed to Cyrus, the Persian King whom God used to overthrow Babylon.

Isaiah 45:1 says....
"This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus,
Whose right hand I have taken hold of
To subdue nations before him,
To disarm kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut".
This was how the Medo/Persians conquered what was believed to be an imprenetrable city.....
The copper gates were carelessly left open so that when they diverted the waters in the river that protected the city, the Medo/Persian soldiers walked staright into the city and took it in one night. The Babylonians were partying, never imagining what was about to befall them.

Jehovah went on to say....Vs 4-7...
"For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one,
I am calling you by your name.
I am giving you a name of honor, although you did not know me
5 I am Jehovah, and there is no one else
There is no God except me.
I will strengthen you, although you did not know me,
6 In order that people may know
From the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides me.
I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

7 I form light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."

Jehovah made sure that Cyrus knew that it was not his own doing that he conquered the greatest world power of the day so easily.
So "in context" what you are claiming is inaccurate. Jehovah is reiterating that he is the source of all things, and can make whatever needs to happen...happen....both good and bad.

If you remember back in Eden "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was off limits to the humans, under penalty of death. That means that God placed what that tree represented, in his own jurisdiction. Deciding what was "good or bad" was God's decision to make, not man's. In their fallen state, humans have proven that they often do not know the difference.

God created the law Ergo God is the author of sin, when he codified obedience to his law, and non-compliance.

No sorry, I cannot agree with that assumption....in the beginning there was to be no sin....remember?
Good and evil only exist as equal opposites, which are seen in nature and in the things we take for granted every day.....up, down...in, out....forwards, backwards....high, low....positive, negative.....hot, cold....God's creation is perfectly balanced, but the one thing he did not give humans, was permission to 'know good and evil' for themselves. God's unfathomable goodness had to be contrasted with an equal opposite which he determined was not a knowledge that we needed to enjoy life here on this beautifully prepared earth. He would tell us what is good, and protect us from evil.....like any good parent.....if only those three had simply obeyed their Creator, we would not be in this mess.

No thing is not of or from the creator.

The first sin, the first sinners were not Adam and Eve.

It was Lucifer. And those angels that joined him in the war against God in Heaven.

Apart from the fact that satan is never called "Lucifer" in the Bible.....yes, he was the first rebel, but he was not joined by other angels till after his success in Eden. He had proven that he could manipulate humans and gain their worship by dividing their loyalty and calling into question God's character.......but only by lying to them. All the issues he raised about God and his Sovereignty had to be settled once and for all, otherwise there was nothing to stop it happening all over again.