The Amazing Christ

[Jim B]

You don't understand what the words, "we all" mean? I think you do.

If "we all" didn't agree on the meaning of words communication would be impossible. I perfectly understand what you said to me. All the words you used have commonly accepted meaning with which I am totally familiar.

I am familiar with the actual trinity doctrine having attended Catholic school for 12 years. Here's the thing though, why did we have to wait for 300 years for a council to come up with words to explain the trinity? "Essence" is not found in the scriptures. If God wanted us to understand that he was not an actual loving person, but a thing, an essence, I think He could have told us that. And I don't like the fact that those who came up with the doctrine were actively trying to meld Greek philosophy with the scriptures, Augustine being one of the most ardent supporters of the effort. I'm not making that up. It is an easily verifiable historic fact.

Hebrews 11 has a context and it has nothing to do with accepting anything by blind faith. Nothing God told those OT believers was outside the realm of reality and logic. They believed Jesus was coming. There's nothing illogical about that. It was a distinct possibility that God would send a savior. People have sent out saviors since time began. We all (including you my brother) know that there is nothing out of the ordinary about a savior. Of course Jesus was the savior extraordinaire! :)

I will take the scriptures over any thousands year old doctrine any day of the week. While I do see, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the one true God" in the catechisms, I don't see any such statement in the scriptures. Such an idea may be "derived" from the scriptures, but people can also "derive" that God is an alien from outer space! I just believe what they say without "deriving" anything beyond what they say. They say Jesus is the son of God and that's where I stop thinking about things that make no sense. I can easily understand what a son and father are. Corinthians says the only the Father is God (1 Cor 8:6). Jesus said the same thing (John 17:3). Those are verses that anyone with an 8th grade reading level can understand. Going beyond what they say is spoken about in Revelation (Rev 22:18). I care not to add, "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the one true God." to God's already perfect word.

You either don't understand the trinity or you are in denial. Either way you are mistaken.

 

[Rich R]

You either don't understand the trinity or you are in denial. Either way you are mistaken.

Well, nobody understands it because it can't be understood. But, yes, I do deny it. Based on scriptural evidence alone, apart from any councils, I don't think I'm mistaken. I think the scriptures are clear that Jesus really is the son of God. As I said, I just accept that and add noting to it. I'm loathe to think God needed Greek philosophy loving "church fathers" to explain His words. God did a pretty good job all by Himself! :)

 

[Jim B]

Well, nobody understands it because it can't be understood. But, yes, I do deny it. Based on scriptural evidence alone, apart from any councils, I don't think I'm mistaken. I think the scriptures are clear that Jesus really is the son of God. As I said, I just accept that and add noting to it. I'm loathe to think God needed Greek philosophy loving "church fathers" to explain His words. God did a pretty good job all by Himself! :)

It can be understood, and is understood by many people. If you deny it that doesn't change reality. Numbers 23:19, "God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind." The Bible -- God's written word-- clearly says that Jesus is God.

 

[Rich R]

It can be understood, and is understood by many people. If you deny it that doesn't change reality. Numbers 23:19, "God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind." The Bible -- God's written word-- clearly says that Jesus is God.

Why did you quote Numbers to make your case? It clearly says God is not a human. Jesus was human through and through. He came from the seed of David. David was a human. Genesis 1 talks about seed. It says that seed produces an offspring that is just like it's parent. If David was human, he sure wasn't going to have any gods in his descendants!

Sorry, but this can in nowise be understood:



I guess this is where the "blind" faith comes into the picture. It certanly doesn't conform to our God given ability to reason, the very ability that seperates man from the rest of the animal kingdom. What a thing to waste!

 

[MatthewG]

Stop thanks.

 

[Jim B]

Why did you quote Numbers to make your case? It clearly says God is not a human. Jesus was human through and through. He came from the seed of David. David was a human. Genesis 1 talks about seed. It says that seed produces an offspring that is just like it's parent. If David was human, he sure wasn't going to have any gods in his descendants!

Sorry, but this can in nowise be understood:

View attachment 27650

I guess this is where the "blind" faith comes into the picture. It certanly doesn't conform to our God given ability to reason, the very ability that seperates man from the rest of the animal kingdom. What a thing to waste!

Simply because you don't understand it doesn't make it untrue. Even your diagram shows that The Son (Jesus) is God!

 

[MatthewG]

@Rich R, @Jim B, will have to ask you both to just leave the subject be which you are talking about. (Either Pm it out, or take it to some other thread).

Thank you ahead of time, sometimes threads and get closed of it' thank you both for replying and commenting here on topic "Amazing Christ".

 

[Rich R]

@Rich R, @Jim B, will have to ask you both to just leave the subject be which you are talking about. (Either Pm it out, or take it to some other thread).

Thank you ahead of time, sometimes threads and get closed of it' thank you both for replying and commenting here on topic "Amazing Christ".

Sorry about that! I guess we got carried away.

 

[MatthewG]

No worries, thank you very much.

 

[Rich R]

Simply because you don't understand it doesn't make it untrue. Even your diagram shows that The Son (Jesus) is God!

This is Matthew's thread and we have hijacked it. Better stop or the thread may get closed. I hope not! Maybe see you somewhere more appropriate. Thanks for the discussion. :)

 

[Keiw]

Kingdom Hall has a different Jesus than Christians. God is our Savior!

Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

Hosea is OT--Jesus didnt become savior until he accomplished his earthly life. Thats what you are failing to understand. Jehovah was the only savior in the OT.

 

[Rich R]

So hope you can drop what I did say and just move forward @Jim B I’m a person who is always capable of making mistakes and being wrong about the Bible: may the spirit guide people to the truth and everyone test all things.

I've been wrong about a few things myself! No doubt I still am. We'll all figure it out when Jesus comes back.

 

[Jack]

Hosea is OT--Jesus didnt become savior until he accomplished his earthly life. Thats what you are failing to understand. Jehovah was the only savior in the OT.

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.

Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

 

[MatthewG]

You guys are gonna have to stop with these things here on the thread, @Jack, @Keiw.

Please keep it on topic thank you.

 

[MatthewG]

I've been wrong about a few things myself! No doubt I still am. We'll all figure it out when Jesus comes back.

Thank God for freedom and liberty in Christ, and the Spirit that is given by God through faith. We can try to understand as much as we can, the important thing is to not let the knowledge puff us up, but let the Spirit guide.

 

[Keiw]

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.

Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

There was no savior beside him in the OT. Jesus dying opened the door for all mankind to be saved so in that sense he became savior as well. It was the Fathers will for that to be.

 

[Jack]

You guys are gonna have to stop with these things here on the thread, @Jack, @Keiw.

Please keep it on topic thank you.

My reply was about "the amazing Christ". Do you ever get off topic?

 

[Jack]

There was no savior beside him in the OT. Jesus dying opened the door for all mankind to be saved so in that sense he became savior as well. It was the Fathers will for that to be.

Who told you that? How about some Scripture!

 

[Rich R]

Thank God for freedom and liberty in Christ, and the Spirit that is given by God through faith. We can try to understand as much as we can, the important thing is to not let the knowledge puff us up, but let the Spirit guide.

Amen about being puffed up. I think 1 Cor 13 is the key. We have to love each other and that fulfills ALL the law.

 

[Keiw]

Who told you that? How about some Scripture!

Do you see the name Jesus in the ot?