Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Trekson]

And that is exactly why I said you are in error on your interpretation of that John 5:28-29 passage.

The time of that event is on the day of Christ's future return, at the 'last day' of this world. And at that moment, it is showing ALL IN THE GRAVES HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH, to one or the other 'type' of resurrection. So that is revealing the resurrection of BOTH the Just AND... the unjust happens on that day.

And since it means the wicked are resurrected ALSO on that day, it is error to say that event is only for the dead in Christ.

That's one opinion and you're entitled to it, as I am to mine.

 

[Truth7t7]

Agreed, heaven or hell for the living at the end of the 70th week. No mention of a resurrection at all, not a parable, sorry bro, it's a prophecy.

It's not a parable?

Then literal sheep and goats will be in judgement, big smiles!

It's a "parable" speaking to herdsmen, just like the wheat and tares is a "parable" speaking to farmers, just like the fish and nets is a "parable" speaking to fishermen

The only person you're fooling is "Yourself"!

Matthew 25:33KJV
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course. Matt. 25 is a judgment of the living, the goats go to hell the sheep enter the millennium retaining their humanity to repopulate the earth. Rev. 20 is the judgment of the dead, the GWTJ. Yeah, their probably the same place just folks arriving at different times. Imo, nothing in scripture implies a one and done period of judgment.

Please explain how the righteous obtain "Eternal Life" and you claim they are "Mortals" going to have sex and repopulate a supposed kingdom on this earth

My Bible says "Eternal Life" while you falsely claim "Mortals" that have sex to repopulate and they die physical death, Big Smiles!

P.S. The Goats go to "The Lake Of Fire" because it's the "Final Judgement"!

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Timtofly]

It helps to quote this passage in context. Christ shows us the hour coming, and now is, is when mankind is able to hear His Word and believe on Him. Those who hear and believe in the hour that has NOW come is when we obtain everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but have passed from death to life. Not all who are spiritually dead hear His voice in this hour that NOW is, because Christ says, "they that hear shall live." Some do not hear the voice of the Son of God coming from His Word and remain spiritually dead. Never having everlasting life because they do not believe on Him.

John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Christ contrasts the hour that has NOW come, a time for hearing His Word and believing on Him, with the hour that IS coming when ALL that are in the graves will hear His voice and physically come out of the grave unto the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Nowhere in these passages do we read of the unjust being cast into the lake of fire one thousand years after they are physically resurrected for damnation. Only an unbiblical interpretation of Rev 20 leads you to believe this error.

Unfortunately you have the whole interpretation reversed. The final hour at the end of creation is not a physical resurrection. It is a spiritual move to eternal damnation. They are dead. They stand before God as dead. They are given the second death. In other words both physically and spiritually dead. The outcome is both deaths, not a resurrection.

Now the first resurrection was the hour to come that now is. The now is part was Lazarus and all of the OT physically resurrected out of Abraham's bosom. You all keep calling the second birth a first resurrection. That is the chink in your Amil bias. You change Scripture to make a statement to prove a point. Thank God Scripture cannot be changed.

The second birth will always be the spiritual birth into the Family of God. Call that a kingdom or reigning with Christ, but it is not the first resurrection. The second birth is the kingdom without physical observation, as Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot see a spiritual birth because they are spiritually blind until they experience the second birth. The second birth cannot change Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but it can place one under the will of the Holy Spirit. The first resurrection is not getting into the kingdom, it is leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind forever. It is changing from one physical body to God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

This is the first resurrection.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is about graves, but the only ones in a grave are those spiritually dead. Amil want this to be the singular day of physical resurrection. But it cannot be, because no one in this verse is in Christ.

There are two outcomes in this verse and neither one is dependent on the Atonement of the Cross. "Those who have done good" This is the metric tied to this verse:

"The dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life."

Any resurrection at this point starts with a physical resurrection. If this is the final and only resurrection, Amil have chosen the one based on works. Obviously all in Christ have already been resurrected into Paradise, by faith alone by the Atonement of the Cross. Yet Amil wait for a resurrection based on works.

 

[Trekson]

It's not a parable?

Then literal sheep and goats will be in judgement, big smiles!

It's a "parable" speaking to herdsmen, just like the wheat and tares is a "parable" speaking to farmers, just like the fish and nets is a "parable" speaking to fishermen

The only person you're fooling is "Yourself"!

Matthew 25:33KJV
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

That's not a parable, that's a prophecy using a metaphor, or being figurative or a simile or an allegory, etc.

 

[Trekson]

Please explain how the righteous obtain "Eternal Life" and you claim they are "Mortals" going to have sex and repopulate a supposed kingdom on this earth

My Bible says "Eternal Life" while you falsely claim "Mortals" that have sex to repopulate and they die physical death, Big Smiles!

P.S. The Goats go to "The Lake Of Fire" because it's the "Final Judgement"!

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I have eternal life and I can have sex and repopulate my home but those who enter the millennium won't have literal eternal life (it will be like ours) but they will live longer like the folks in the early part of the bible did. Is. 65:20 - "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old;..."

 

[rwb]

Unfortunately you have the whole interpretation reversed. The final hour at the end of creation is not a physical resurrection. It is a spiritual move to eternal damnation. They are dead. They stand before God as dead. They are given the second death. In other words both physically and spiritually dead. The outcome is both deaths, not a resurrection.

They stand before God as spiritually dead, physically alive for Judgment. The dead are judged according to what they have done while physically alive, by what is written in the books, and the book of life. Since the dead have not partaken of the first resurrection through Christ in time (a thousand years), they are physically resurrected for condemnation in the lake of fire.

 

[rwb]

Now the first resurrection was the hour to come that now is. The now is part was Lazarus and all of the OT physically resurrected out of Abraham's bosom. You all keep calling the second birth a first resurrection. That is the chink in your Amil bias. You change Scripture to make a statement to prove a point. Thank God Scripture cannot be changed.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ from the dead! The time that NOW is, is for hearing the Gospel and believing. Whosoever hears and believes has passed from death to life, because believing Christ is how one partakes of His resurrection life, the first resurrection. What you call "the second birth" is not found in Scripture. Christ says we must be born again of the Spirit, and this is re-birth, not a second birth, as though coming again from the womb of our mothers. Nicodemus too was confused by the new birth or birth that comes from above through His Spirit entering into us. Not our entering again into a womb to be born a second time.

 

[Truth7t7]

That's not a parable, that's a prophecy using a metaphor, or being figurative or a simile or an allegory, etc.

Your claims are false, and I could post a hundred commentaries on Matthew 25:31-46 showing its a parable, your out of touch with basic biblical theology

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All of it. It's just that easy. There's no such thing as a partial fulfillment of the new covenant. It was fully established by the shed blood of Christ, as scripture teaches. It's just that easy.

So Jews no longer need to hear teh gospel. god has put into effect teh new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah (not just some but all are in the covenant)

Every Jew from the least to teh greatest knows the Lord according to you.

All of christianity would disagree with you.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have already answered this multiple times! Why do you act as if I haven't? I'm not going to spoon feed scripture to you as if you are a toddler. I showed the scripture which indicates that the new covenant was fully established by the blood of Christ and how Paul talked how he and the other disciples were ministers of the new covenant. So, your starting point should be having the understanding that the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ and then you should understand Jeremiah 31:31-37 accordingly.

Well if you mean your redefinition of what the covenant means, I cannot accept rewrite of Scripture.

but if you mean what God declared in simple language- you are wrong!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

.
.
For the record, I'm not going to play your typical volleyball game of repetitious and insulting over-simplification ("just go read a Greek dictionary"), virtue-signaling ("I'm a multiple soul-winning, nice guy everywhere but here"), and cancel culture ("Watchtower" this; "LDS/SDA cult" that). Sorry, Ron, but you're infamous/legend here (to be fair, you are by no means alone). And I'm not going to respond to any of your "I know you are but what am I" posts, either. You're a bit long in the tooth to be carrying on so childishly, btw. I'm only posting this so others will know that your schtick isn't intimidating--just mind-numbingly exhausting.
.
.

Chhildish to you, but make sense to many.

Sorry but I do not accept you rewriting Scripture to fit teh doctrine you wnat to believe. You should adjust your doctrine to how scripture in its totality is written.

But you will find out soul sleep is a myth and the lake of fire is an eternal place of torment for those who reject the gospel of Jesus.

And if I am infamous, it is only to those who are opposed to the Word of God as written in the rules of grammar as God invented them.

 

[Trekson]

Your claims are false, and I could post a hundred commentaries on Matthew 25:31-46 showing its a parable, your out of touch with basic biblical theology

Jesus Is The Lord

Here's the definition of a parable: "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle." I don't believe anything in Matt. 25:31-46 is "ficticious". The sheep and the goats are metaphors for believers and sinners. Believers are referred to as sheep many times in the bible. Everything else should be understood as 100% being a prophecy about the judgment of the nations after Armageddon that will be fulfilled literally as the vast majority of prophecy will be. If you believe anything different than you or anyone else that does so is out of touch. Commentaries are just the opinions of fairly educated men who are as prone to error as anyone else. They are "not" scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

So Jews no longer need to hear teh gospel. god has put into effect teh new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah (not just some but all are in the covenant)

Ron I find your continued use of lower case "god" to be disrespectful to "God", it is my request that you use "upper case" (G) in addressing the Lord God "Thanks"

 

[Truth7t7]

Here's the definition of a parable: "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle." I don't believe anything in Matt. 25:31-46 is "ficticious". The sheep and the goats are metaphors for believers and sinners. Believers are referred to as sheep many times in the bible. Everything else should be understood as 100% being a prophecy about the judgment of the nations after Armageddon that will be fulfilled literally as the vast majority of prophecy will be. If you believe anything different than you or anyone else that does so is out of touch. Commentaries are just the opinions of fairly educated men who are as prone to error as anyone else. They are "not" scripture.

The Sheep/Goats is a "Parable" using non-literal representations while speaking to "Heardsmen", the word "Metaphor" isn't found in my Holy Bible

Sheep/Goats are "Fictitious" representations, they aren't going to be standing in judgement before God, Duh!

You're on the run in distraction from biblical truth and the word "Parable" seen below, Jesus spoke in "Parables"!

Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 13:13KJV
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

[Timtofly]

They stand before God as spiritually dead, physically alive for Judgment. The dead are judged according to what they have done while physically alive, by what is written in the books, and the book of life. Since the dead have not partaken of the first resurrection through Christ in time (a thousand years), they are physically resurrected for condemnation in the lake of fire.

The problem is they don't stand after a physical resurrection. If they are given a physical resurrection, they won't be cast into the LOF. You make a claim the verses don't make. Those dead souls are judged, prior to a resurrection. Judgment always comes prior to a resurrection.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

A soul has to stand before a throne of judgment before given life.

Those in verse 4 do not stand before the GWT. They stand before thrones, plural. You speculate there could be a resurrection in verse 12:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

If so, it is after they have been judged, not necessarily the means to arrive at the judgment. The dead are not standing there because of their works. Where they end up is the result of their works. You are forcing the result prior to the pronouncement of the judgment.

If they receive your spiritual resurrection after physical death, how can you maintain it only comes prior to physical death? You are not being consistent. The first resurrection is physical and comes after physical death, which is a consistent teaching. The second birth happens prior to physical death, and places us into life without having to be the dead standing at the GWT, in the first place.

Even some pre-mill agree with you, that even those in Christ are still in death, until the GWT. Some claim they are on the earth. No one seems to get the point they are already in Paradise, and return in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 19 is not the same event as the New Jerusalem coming out of heaven, but that is how Amil erroneously see it. Those dead have to be physically killed before they stand, as the dead, at the GWT 1,000 years later.

If Revelation 19 is the New Jerusalem coming down why kill them at Armageddon? They could just as easily stand at the GWT prior to physical death as after physical death, since you claim they have to have a physical body, just to stand at the GWT. The reason they are dead is because they no longer physically live on the earth, until the thousand years are over. But they still stand as dead souls, as there is no longer a heaven and earth as they stand as dead. The physical is no longer necessary, unless they are given a physical body as the result of the judgment handed down. With the first resurrection, a physical body, it is no longer necessary to receive the second death. That physical body makes them blessed, as God has removed them from death into life, in a permanent incorruptible physical body without sin, nor a sin nature.

Even your resurrection back into Adam's dead corruptible flesh would not prevent them from dying the second death. In fact in that body, it would necessitate the second death, as Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot inherit eternal life. Yet you deny the first resurrection is physical, but only spiritual, thus it cannot even happen to those at the GWT. So you have no resurrection. All you have are souls being emptied out of death and sheol, directly into the LOF. That is not a resurrection at all, but a death sentence to the second death. Standing at the GWT is the giving of judgment to these soul's eternal destination. It is God passing judgment accordingly from the books opened. Amil point out some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation in the LOF.

The only way John 5:28-29 can work as a resurrection is that some of those dead are granted eternal life while the rest still reside in condemnation and cast into the LOF. This literally has nothing to do with the redeemed church who received the second birth prior to physical death. Those resurrected at the GWT are still in the Lamb's book of life and they decide then and there to remain in the Lamb's book of life. They are granted both the second birth and the first resurrection, which you have conflated all along. While the judgment is based on their good works, they still are choosing to remain covered by the Atonement Covenant, which produced those goods works, even while they themselves, while physically alive, rejected God's free gift of the second birth. They still cannot boast their good works saved them, because they did not. They still had hundreds and thousands of years in sheol as punishment. What remaining in the Lamb's book of life at that point is, is still salvation from the second death, which all redeemed, have already escaped, while even avoiding years spent in sheol.

Your interpretation ruins what the resurrection even is, if all it is, is a physical body in the LOF. The point of the first resurrection is to escape the LOF, not endure the LOF with a physical body. Will all souls be cast into the LOF with their dead body and demonized spirit? That is a possibility, but not a prerequisite to prove your Amil bias. Your Amil bias claims the second birth and first resurrection is the same thing, when obviously they are seperate phenomenon. The second birth prevents one from spending time in death or sheol. The first resurrection prevents one from the Second Death in the LOF. None of your proof texts can refute that. Only a twisted and contradictory interpretation popular with Amil can refute God's Word, obviously to no avail. So it is not Scripture that goes against pre-mill thought calling for a future Day of the Lord called the Millennium Kingdom. It is Amils and their own interpretation that is actually contradictory to Scripture, no matter if they quoted the entire Bible.

And many pre-mill are wrong as well, when Amil do point out their inconsistencies. But still interpretation is at fault. Amil cannot prove from Scripture denial of a future 1,000 year reign. Nor can they prove Revelation 20 is the here and now.

 

[rwb]

The problem is they don't stand after a physical resurrection. If they are given a physical resurrection, they won't be cast into the LOF. You make a claim the verses don't make. Those dead souls are judged, prior to a resurrection. Judgment always comes prior to a resurrection.

You fight against the plain words of Scripture. If you're paying attention, you should be able to understand the DEAD are resurrected to stand before God to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. All of the DEAD are judged then both death and hell (grave) are cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13-15 (KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

A soul has to stand before a throne of judgment before given life.

We are judged according to our works in life. The verse does not say those upon the thrones were judged, it says judgment was given unto them according to what they were in life. The judgment given these sitting upon thrones in heaven was according to the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Believers are judged in life in accordance to our faith and complete trust in the work of Christ on our behalf. They will not be judged with "the dead" according to what is found written in the books and the book of life, because in life/time they partook of the first resurrection through the resurrection life of Christ. They are counted among those worthy to be seated in heaven because by grace through faith they heard the Gospel and through the power of the Spirit believed Christ for eternal life.

The dead stand before the GWT to be judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. In life/time the dead did not trust in the finished work of Christ for eternal life. They must give account before God, and judged accordingly.

 

[ewq1938]

Ron I find your continued use of lower case "god" to be disrespectful to "God", it is my request that you use "upper case" (G) in addressing the Lord God "Thanks"

That's a type-o as he does usually Cap it as seen in other posts. Besides, the manuscripts have it in all CAPS (GOD) so wouldn't that be the most correct way?

 

[Timtofly]

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ from the dead! The time that NOW is, is for hearing the Gospel and believing. Whosoever hears and believes has passed from death to life, because believing Christ is how one partakes of His resurrection life, the first resurrection. What you call "the second birth" is not found in Scripture. Christ says we must be born again of the Spirit, and this is re-birth, not a second birth, as though coming again from the womb of our mothers. Nicodemus too was confused by the new birth or birth that comes from above through His Spirit entering into us. Not our entering again into a womb to be born a second time.

No, you call the first resurrection the second birth.


The first resurrection is a physical body after the first death, which is physical. The first birth, death, and resurrection are all physical. While it is true that the resurrection of Jesus was physical, it was only physical, because His body physically died, not a physical rebirth, as your rebuttal seems to point to.

The second birth is spiritual, not a re-birth. At what point in your existence since conception did you loose your spirit to a spiritual death? The second birth is the reception into God's spiritual family, and is all spiritual, not physical at all. You are not given a spirit as token of that second birth. You are literally declaring yourself in full submission to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is your spiritual connection to this spiritual family.

Of course the second birth is found in Scripture. That is the point of being born again. Born again as in a second new existence. Not a resurrection out of this existence. You are still physically here in this existence, while born into the Family of God. The second birth is a first time experience, and can only happen once, not multiple times as if you can turn the second birth on or off at will. It is leaving death behind for ever. That is why physical death is also no longer tasting death, nor feeling the sting of death.

But you cannot deny nor change what the first resurrection is, by conflating it with the second birth. If you don't like the words second birth, then call it born again, which also implies a re-birth, which confused Nicodemus, and that is why I don't use born again. The second birth is also being born again, but an actual point in time with a beginning, that cannot be revoked. Many claim to be born again, as they turn over a new leaf as in re-birth, so too much baggage is associated with that usage. But calling it the first resurrection is misleading, and contrary to Scripture. The first resurrection has always and only been a physical resurrection.

Jesus did explain the difference:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

So both births are necessary. One birth is physical. One birth is spiritual. If there are two births, there is nothing wrong in calling one of them the second birth. Jesus is not replacing the flesh birth with the spirit birth. To be in the complete image of God, a soul needs both a physical body and a spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

You fight against the plain words of Scripture. If you're paying attention, you should be able to understand the DEAD are resurrected to stand before God to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. All of the DEAD are judged then both death and hell (grave) are cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13-15 (KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



We are judged according to our works in life. The verse does not say those upon the thrones were judged, it says judgment was given unto them according to what they were in life. The judgment given these sitting upon thrones in heaven was according to the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Believers are judged in life in accordance to our faith and complete trust in the work of Christ on our behalf. They will not be judged with "the dead" according to what is found written in the books and the book of life, because in life/time they partook of the first resurrection through the resurrection life of Christ. They are counted among those worthy to be seated in heaven because by grace through faith they heard the Gospel and through the power of the Spirit believed Christ for eternal life.

The dead stand before the GWT to be judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. In life/time the dead did not trust in the finished work of Christ for eternal life. They must give account before God, and judged accordingly.

Scripture never claims those dead at the GWT are resurrected. You force that into the text. I am not fighting Scripture. I am pointing out you are inserting your opinion into the text.

In Revelation 20:4 those sitting on the thrones were judging those beheaded souls. They were not being judged. The verse states they were given a judgment to pass onto those souls who were beheaded. That judgment handed down was the first resurrection.

The church is not granted eternal life because of works they have done. The church is under the alter, covered by the Atonement Covenant of the Cross.

If you refuse to accept that, then your salvation is based on your own good works, and not the Cross. We are rewarded according to our works.

How can you say good works can keep one out of the LOF? You keep wanting to hold on to the thought that those dead have done good works and allowed a physical resurrection just for the result to be the LOF? That is not a resurrection. Neither do our works cause us to be eternally lost. We were lost at the moment of conception. That is why everyone needs the second birth. Are you saying that torment has different levels in the LOF?