Matthew 24

[covenantee]

It seems the futurists view us as each other's clone. Yet their doctrine is almost verbatim that of Tony Warren @ Mountain Retreat. For several years now he has taught this doctrine regarding "this generation" as the generation of evil doers that both RB & TS are almost in complete lock step with. Like RB & TS Tony Warren believes he has arrived at greater spiritual wisdom, having far greater knowledge from the Holy Spirit of spiritual discernment than most other Christians.

Yeah, I'd been unable to recall the name until you referenced it. Any claim to be the sole possessor of truth is trademark cultism, and this one certainly qualifies by that criterion. The ignorance and repudiation of the faith, vision, and sacrifice of the historical orthodox Christian Church is appalling. Thanks for your wisdom and insights.

 

[covenantee]

Obviously, Luke 21:20 is pertaining to the events involving 70 AD, regardless that some in this thread disagree. But is Matthew 24:15 also referring to these same events? I don't see how, especially based on what you just submitted then comparing that to what Matthew 24:15 records.

You said this---"The Roman armies, under Cestius Gallus, were advancing upon Jerusalem, the holy city, in view of the Christians; when the armies briefly withdrew for an interval sufficient to permit the Christians to flee to Pella and escape"

This is what Matthew 24:15-16 records.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Explain how this-- When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, stand in the holy place---equals this---"The Roman armies, under Cestius Gallus, were advancing upon Jerusalem, the holy city, in view of the Christians; when the armies briefly withdrew for an interval sufficient to permit the Christians to flee to Pella and escape"

Per your interpretation what do you take the holy place to mean? The 2nd temple before it was destroyed? If yes, if the armies were only advancing upon Jerusalem at the time, then briefly withdrew for an interval sufficient to permit the Christians to flee to Pella and escape, and that Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 that when you see the AOD, stand in the holy place, that is when you are to flee to the mountains, does that mean Jesus was trying to confuse ppl back then?

Or does this mean Jesus was giving everyone two opportunities to flee here. Don't heed His warning the first time around(meaning what He said in Luke 21:20-21), no big deal, nothing to lose sleep over, you still have one more opportunity to flee at a later time(meaning what He said in Matthew 24:15-16).

Or instead of any of those scenarios, it seems more reasonable to take these accounts to be involving different events, different eras of time. IOW, The former is meaning literally, the latter is meaning spiritually.

Luke 21:20 interprets Matthew 24:15 to identify the AoD, which was the Roman armies, who were advancing upon the holy place of Jerusalem, the holy city (Nehemiah 11:1; Isaiah 52:1).

 

[TribulationSigns]

So does the chosen generation.



I agree, but the evil generation Christ was addressing were of the Jews, that are of Israel. They were not the beginning of the evil generation of mankind, nor are they the end.

False. The evil generation were those who were part of a spiritual family that waged war against the CONGREGATION of Israel, starting with Seth (he was not even a Jew). The evil generation make up of all professed believers in the old and new testament. Not strictly Jews or Israel only.

Just as with the chosen generation, whom Christ spoke directly to, they too have been and shall be found upon the earth from the beginning of creation to the end of days. Your doctrine is focused on the evil generation that shall not endure forever, where Christ is focused on the chosen generation that shall not pass until all things are fulfilled.

You do not make any sense, but let me ask you this question:
Mat 24:34-35
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

What generation will pass (end) so the question is will it be the wicked and evil generation or the chosen generation?

Christ had spoken similarly before when He said, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mt 16:28) Or as Luke says, "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." (Lu 9:27) Christ knew they would not live to visibly see the second coming of Christ,, but some of them before they physically died would come to know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God, which is the message of Christ throughout His ministry on this earth.

Christ's death and resurrection serve as the restoration of Israel "because" Christ is the True Israel. When Christ gave us eyes to see, we were restored (Mark 8:25). SPIRITUALLY, not physically. The Kingdom didn't come with observation, because its restoration was with "Spiritual power."

Mark 9:1

• "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

What power? Either this is true and the Kingdom of God 'came' with power, or it is a lie and the Kingdom of God has yet to come. Which is it? For true Christians the answer is easy. It is true and authoritative. And note that it says that it would come with power. Remember what we read in Acts 1:6-8 when the Apostles asked Christ about the Kingdom?

Act 1:8

• But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Luk 24:49

• And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Christ said ye shall receive power when the Holy Ghost is poured out. This is Christ in us. This is the Kingdom coming with power that some of them that were standing there would not taste of death, till they had seen it come. They saw it on Pentecost! Selah! Nothing to do with 70AD!

It is hard for some people to understand, and others will never understand the Spiritual nature of the gospel, but the oft-misunderstood and long-awaited restoration of Israel does not come with observation, nor with physical plantings, physical temple, nor with political might, but it came with the redemptive work of Christ in his death and resurrection wherein we are made the Holy nation of Israel. And so [houto], or "THUSLY" shall all Israel be saved just as it is written. By the Deliverer (Christ) out of Zion who takes away their sins. There is only one time Christ took away the sins of Israel, and that was at His death and resurrection.

Of course it doesn't! I have never said otherwise! It's also biblically unsupportable to push the prophesy into the far distant future, that is to date almost two thousand years.

Hmm... do you have a problem with the idea that it takes time for Christ to build his Church (the spiritual temple that he rebuilt in 3 days for the whole New Testament period to bring in the Elect while Satan was bound in the bottomless pit? And after all Elect are secured, Satan will be loosened for a short season to be used by God to judge his unfaithful congregation? It obviously did not take place in 70AD unless your carnal mind wants you to focus on physical temple falling.

Yes, they the chosen generation are "this generation" that shall not pass because death has lost its hold on them!

No, read the verse carefully:

Matthew 24:34-35

• Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Christ says that Heaven and Earth which obviously includes "this generation" which is wicked and evil shall pass away. These verses have nothing to do with the chosen generation because it is not subject to be pass away.

 

[Red Baker]

You're espousing your own historically vacuous hallucinations in order to attempt to justify your futurized fantasies and fallacies.

Who has said anything about "Roman's army already in the temple in Jerusalem"? Not I. That is classic dispensational delusion, and you're one of the gullible.

That's the understanding all preterist and those who try to use the two-fold approach interpreting Matthew 24 of saying Matthew 24 is speaking about both Jerusalem's fall and Christ second coming~ (many premill).

The Roman armies, under Cestius Gallus, were advancing upon Jerusalem, the holy city, in view of the Christians;

So, you do believe this! Do you, or do you not?

under Cestius Gallus, were advancing upon Jerusalem, the holy city

Really? Jerusalem was a holy city...and that's why God destroy it? The only holy thing about Jerusalem in that day, were a few children of God in the midst of a perverse generation of reprobates, who just killed the prince of glory, the Creator of all things!

when the armies briefly withdrew for an interval sufficient to permit the Christians to flee to Pella and escape.

Sir, how do you know this to be true? Were you there? What and where do you find your source of information teachings a bible truth, for that's nowhere to be found as God's testimony of those days, nowhere~who gave you the right to use extra biblical information to teach a biblical truth? You teachings such things is adding to God's testimony to support your own agenda.

Thankfully, the Christians weren't fantasy futurites.

The apostle John, who was there when Jesus spoke this discourse clearly reveals to us the true meaning of Jesus' teachings in his letter ( 1st John 2:18 cp. with 2nd Thess 2, and Revelation 6-20) Clearly his teachings on this discourse is what we call in our day Amill idealist.

to permit the Christians to flee

If we read Acts of the apostles, very few Christians still were in Jerusalem, if any, much after the apostles, they for the most part were already in the process of being scattered throughout the Romans empire.

Acts 8:1​

“And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.”

Your theory does not fit the scriptures, maybe Josephus' teaching....but, who cares what he wrote, his writings will never shed light upon God's hidden truth, never!

The distance from Jerusalem to Pella is over 100 km, and the hills of Pella are substantial.

Who cares? And that would provide safety for Christians? Have you never so much as read this:

2 Kings 6:17​

“And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.”

Christians do not trust in such things as running unto natural hills for protection, when we have a chariots of powerful angels to protect us, that surrounds us at God's order ~ lest at any time evil befalls us that God did not ordain. Jeremiah did not leave Jerusalem when the Babylonians came in to destroy Israel and took them captive. Read for yourself what Jeremiah did that got him thrown in a dungeon with mire up to his waist. Read all of Jeremiah 38.

So Jeremiah abode in the court of the prison until the day that Jerusalem was taken: and he was there when Jerusalem was taken.

The laughs are on you.

We shall see. You sound much like those men that put Jeremiah into the dungeon.

 

[Red Baker]

You haven't explained why the Judaean Christians fled (the Roman armies) and escaped (destruction). Matthew 24:15,16; Luke 21:20,21)

How can I explain something that's not biblical? Force my own interpretation like you do? I'll pass. I'm going to finished Matthew 24 maybe this weekend, the Lord willing~and we will address those verses.

 

[Red Baker]

Like RB & TS Tony Warren believes he has arrived at greater spiritual wisdom, having far greater knowledge from the Holy Spirit of spiritual discernment than most other Christians.

I certainly do not believe this for myself and have never gotten this from the other two gentlemen, that they would think this of themselves. Boldness, and being not tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and their cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive~is often tagged as one being proud. A device used by the devil to turn folk's mind away from hearing the truth~it works on those who let others do their thinking for them.

 

[Timtofly]

False. The evil generation were those who were part of a spiritual family that waged war against the CONGREGATION of Israel, starting with Seth (he was not even a Jew). The evil generation make up of all professed believers in the old and new testament. Not strictly Jews or Israel only.

Seth was just acting out the evil he learned from Adam and Eve. Who did Seth wage war against?

 

[rwb]

False. The evil generation were those who were part of a spiritual family that waged war against the CONGREGATION of Israel, starting with Seth (he was not even a Jew). The evil generation make up of all professed believers in the old and new testament. Not strictly Jews or Israel only.

Those belonging to the chosen generation began at creation, so too we also see those are of the evil generation was at the very beginning of creation. It was at the beginning that evil caused sin and death through sin to enter creation and destined everything with the breath of life to death. The evil generation will not endure forever. But the chosen generation, we see clearly through Abel bringing the firstlings of his flock as an offering to the Lord, will never pass because they are predestined to everlasting life that shall NEVER end. Those of evil have been waging war against the chosen people of God from the beginning of creation.

The evil generation may profess to believe, but they are liars and deceivers from the beginning, and never belong to the truth. This is the generation of unbelieving Israel that Christ directly addressed, calling out THEM SPECIFICALLY for belonging to their father, the devil. That does not mean Christ was saying only those kinsmen according to the flesh are the generation of evil doers that will not endure forever. How could He be, since He says those belonging to evil are responsible for all death upon the earth?

What generation will pass (end) so the question is will it be the wicked and evil generation or the chosen generation?

Christ isn't saying that some will pass. He says "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Have you taken the time to search out the Greek word interpreted "pass"?

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3928. παρέρχομαι parerchomai (parérchomai)
Search for G3928 in KJVSL; in KJV.
παρέρχομαι parérchomai, par-er'-khom-ahee

from G3844 and G2064; to come near or aside, i.e. to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causative) avert:—come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.

In this verse from Luke the same Greek word is translated "will come forth", and again "transgressed I". Since the words of Christ are addressing the chosen generation, telling them 'they will come forth', or 'they shall never have transgressed' not even/never/in no way until all these things shall be fulfilled. A double negative strengthens the denial to show they shall endure FOREVER.

Luke 12:37 (KJV) Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Luke 15:29 (KJV) And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Here again the translation is "Go".

Luke 17:7 (KJV) But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3364. οὐ μή ou me (ou mḗ)
Search for G3364 in KJVSL; in KJV

οὐ μή ou mḗ, oo may
i.e. G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:—any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise).

The problem for you futurists is that you are reading your doctrine into the text, attempting to force them to support your belief that Christ is primarily speaking of things they will live to see. We all, including these first disciples who have been with Him and heard Him speaking to the evil generation of what their end shall be, know this. But these words from Christ were spoken to give comfort to His disciples. Knowing the "chosen generation" shall not pass away, but shall go forth to be with the Lord forever after all these things shall be fulfilled.

What power? Either this is true and the Kingdom of God 'came' with power, or it is a lie and the Kingdom of God has yet to come. Which is it? For true Christians the answer is easy. It is true and authoritative. And note that it says that it would come with power. Remember what we read in Acts 1:6-8 when the Apostles asked Christ about the Kingdom?

Luke 10:17-19 (KJV) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

At Pentecost we see the power of the Holy Spirit coming to Jews from every nation, no longer is the power of God limited to seventy disciples, but now comes unto every disciple that has been born again and entered the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with.

In answer to their question of the coming of the Kingdom of God, Christ tells them "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you", IOW they would understand the Kingdom of God has come, it is a spiritual Kingdom, and shall not be literally found upon this earth, and they shall be His witnesses both in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 1:7-8 (KJV) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is why life of the fig tree after it had been cursed to never again have life would have been concrete proof that the Kingdom of God they waited long time to come, had come in power, is not visibly seen, is not of this world, but is within you, because the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom that can only be known and entered through the Spirit of Christ within you.

They saw it on Pentecost! Selah! Nothing to do with 70AD!

I've never said the coming of the Kingdom of God that came with Christ was 70 AD!

Hmm... do you have a problem with the idea that it takes time for Christ to build his Church (the spiritual temple that he rebuilt in 3 days for the whole New Testament period to bring in the Elect while Satan was bound in the bottomless pit? And after all Elect are secured, Satan will be loosened for a short season to be used by God to judge his unfaithful congregation? It obviously did not take place in 70AD unless your carnal mind wants you to focus on physical temple falling.

No, do you?

No, read the verse carefully:

Matthew 24:34-35

• Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Christ says that Heaven and Earth which obviously includes "this generation" which is wicked and evil shall pass away. These verses have nothing to do with the chosen generation because it is not subject to be pass away.

This proves what I've been saying! Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the "chosen generation" shall not pass, because they shall endure forever.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Those belonging to the chosen generation began at creation, so too we also see those are of the evil generation was at the very beginning of creation. It was at the beginning that evil caused sin and death through sin to enter creation and destined everything with the breath of life to death. The evil generation will not endure forever. But the chosen generation, we see clearly through Abel bringing the firstlings of his flock as an offering to the Lord, will never pass because they are predestined to everlasting life that shall NEVER end. Those of evil have been waging war against the chosen people of God from the beginning of creation.

The evil generation may profess to believe, but they are liars and deceivers from the beginning, and never belong to the truth.

Hey that's my line.

This is the generation of unbelieving Israel that Christ directly addressed, calling out THEM SPECIFICALLY for belonging to their father, the devil. That does not mean Christ was saying only those kinsmen according to the flesh are the generation of evil doers that will not endure forever. How could He be, since He says those belonging to evil are responsible for all death upon the earth?

No, Christ is saying that those kinsmen are PART of the ONGOING generation of evil just as we, Elect, are part of the ONGOING generation since the dawn of time! As RB quoted this generation is talking about EVIL generation which WILL PASS... after all thing are fulfilled. The generation did not end in the first century since both evil and chosen generations continued to the Last Day.

Christ isn't saying that some will pass.

Neither did I.

He says "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Have you taken the time to search out the Greek word interpreted "pass"?

Of course, it means perish or go away. But the question is, why did you stop here. Have you considered the rest of the verse, "till all these things be fulfilled." It means that this generation will not perish, go away, or pass UNTIL all these things be fulfilled. The only generation that will pass is evil, not chosen. That is where you are having a hard time accepting this.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3928. παρέρχομαι parerchomai (parérchomai)
Search for G3928 in KJVSL; in KJV.
παρέρχομαι parérchomai, par-er'-khom-ahee

from G3844 and G2064; to come near or aside, i.e. to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causative) avert:—come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.

In this verse from Luke the same Greek word is translated "will come forth", and again "transgressed I". Since the words of Christ are addressing the chosen generation, telling them 'they will come forth', or 'they shall never have transgressed' not even/never/in no way until all these things shall be fulfilled. A double negative strengthens the denial to show they shall endure FOREVER.

No. That is not what Jesus means by this generation applying to the chosen generation just because they "will come forth" or "shall never has transgressed" You are playing word games.

Luke 12:37 (KJV) Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Nothing to do with "this generation"

Luke 15:29 (KJV) And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Nothing to do with "this generation"

Luke 17:7 (KJV) But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?'

Nothing to do with "this generation"

The problem for you futurists is that you are reading your doctrine into the text, attempting to force them to support your belief that Christ is primarily speaking of things they will live to see. We all, including these first disciples who have been with Him and heard Him speaking to the evil generation of what their end shall be, know this. But these words from Christ were spoken to give comfort to His disciples. Knowing the "chosen generation" shall not pass away, but shall go forth to be with the Lord forever after all these things shall be fulfilled.

Chosen generation was not mean to pass away. Rather it is the evil generaiton that will pass away ONLY AFTER ALL THESE THINGS CONCERNING THEM in the context shall be fulfilled.

Luke 10:17-19 (KJV) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

At Pentecost we see the power of the Holy Spirit coming to Jews from every nation, no longer is the power of God limited to seventy disciples, but now comes unto every disciple that has been born again and entered the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with.

Well duh. That is the Kingdom of God coming with power -- AFTER Pentecost. Not 70 AD.

In answer to their question of the coming of the Kingdom of God, Christ tells them "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you", IOW they would understand the Kingdom of God has come, it is a spiritual Kingdom, and shall not be literally found upon this earth, and they shall be His witnesses both in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

That is what I have been saying all along. You are repeating my line.

Acts 1:7-8 (KJV) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is why life of the fig tree after it had been cursed to never again have life would have been concrete proof that the Kingdom of God they waited long time to come, had come in power, is not visibly seen, is not of this world, but is within you, because the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom that can only be known and entered through the Spirit of Christ within you.

"The Curse of the Fig Tree" signifies the fall of the Old Testament congregation. It suggests that they are no longer representative of the kingdom. Remember, the kingdom was taken from them and given to the New Testament congregation. Christ rebuilt the temple in three days after the temple fell (stones of the building falling). He was talking about PEOPLE of the Old Testament congregation. Not physical stones falling in 70AD. Then on Pentecost, God gave the New Testament congregation the power to preach the gospel to the world. This already took place long before 70AD and most Christians already moved out of Jersualem long before Romans army came to destroy the city. So Acts 1:7-8 has nothing whatsoever with 70AD or your "chosen generation passing theory." The "all things" in Matthew 24 and others did not refer to the Jews in the first century, because the church, which is NOW a representative of God's kingdom, still has work to do until the time of the end in the future. The Olivet Discourse focuses on the New Testament congregation right before the Second Coming, not the Jews in 70. At that last day, ,that is when the generation of evil will pass away after all things are fulfilled. It is your 70AD doctirne that is in confusion and error.

This proves what I've been saying! Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the "chosen generation" shall not pass, because they shall endure forever.

Huh? I do not think you read verses 34-35 correctly. It says that this generation will NOT PASS UNTIL all these things are fulfilled. You deliberately ignored the word "until" which God clearly tells us that this generation WILL pass away after all things are fulfilled first. And yes that will be the generation of evil that will pass, perish, end, go away etc. Deal with it.

 

[covenantee]

How can I explain something that's not biblical? Force my own interpretation like you do? I'll pass. I'm going to finished Matthew 24 maybe this weekend, the Lord willing~and we will address those verses.

Jesus' warning was Biblical.

Its fulfillment was historical.

I believe both.

You believe neither.

I believe Biblical and historical.

Every time.

Not futurized fantasy.

 

[covenantee]

That's the understanding all preterist and those who try to use the two-fold approach interpreting Matthew 24 of saying Matthew 24 is speaking about both Jerusalem's fall and Christ second coming~ (many premill).

They don't believe the psychoses of fantasy futurites.

So, you do believe this! Do you, or do you not?

How many times would you like to be told?

Really? Jerusalem was a holy city...and that's why God destroy it? The only holy thing about Jerusalem in that day, were a few children of God in the midst of a perverse generation of reprobates, who just killed the prince of glory, the Creator of all things!

So you don't believe Nehemiah and Isaiah?

Or Matthew?

Matthew 4:5
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Matthew 27:53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Sir, how do you know this to be true? Were you there?

I know that you weren't there.

If we read Acts of the apostles, very few Christians still were in Jerusalem, if any, much after the apostles, they for the most part were already in the process of being scattered throughout the Romans empire.

Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

If you'd read the Scripture, you'd see that it explains itself.

But you don't believe it, so you don't read it.

You believe nothing except your own cultic private futurized fantasies.

 

[grafted branch]

Sir, how do you know this to be true? Were you there? What and where do you find your source of information teachings a bible truth, for that's nowhere to be found as God's testimony of those days, nowhere~who gave you the right to use extra biblical information to teach a biblical truth? You teachings such things is adding to God's testimony to support your own agenda.

Sir, how do you know what’s happening in apostate churches? Are you attending them? What and where do you find your source of information teachings a bible truth, for that's nowhere to be found as God's testimony of those days, nowhere~who gave you the right to use extra biblical information to teach a biblical truth? You teachings such things is adding to God's testimony to support your own agenda.



I just changed a few words in your post to show that this accusation also applies to you. I thought you yourself already agreed that we all have to use secular information to know when things are fulfilled. Here is what you said in post #137 …



I read the scriptures, and hear what they are saying, and if I see what they are saying coming to pass, then I know and believe much like John the apostle saw the linen clothes and the napkin that was about his head, not lying with the lines clothes, but by itself.....



Some of us read the scriptures, hear what they are saying, and if we see what they said has already come to pass in the past, then we know to believe just as the apostles believed.
Much like Matthew 2:15, where Mary, Jesus, and Joseph’s flight to Egypt fulfilled Hosea 11:1.

This flight was literal and we dare not look for some future, spiritual flight to fulfill Hosea 11:1.

 

[rwb]

Chosen generation was not mean to pass away. Rather it is the evil generaiton that will pass away ONLY AFTER ALL THESE THINGS CONCERNING THEM in the context shall be fulfilled.

That is NOT what Christ said! That's you reading your doctrine into the words of Christ.

Well duh. That is the Kingdom of God coming with power -- AFTER Pentecost. Not 70 AD.

Well duh! I never said it came in 70 AD!

"The Curse of the Fig Tree" signifies the fall of the Old Testament congregation. It suggests that they are no longer representative of the kingdom. Remember, the kingdom was taken from them and given to the New Testament congregation.

Exactly! The Old Covenant unfaithful Jews were cursed, they have already fallen away, but that will never happen to the chosen generation that shall endure forever. Hello! Could it not be any clearer why Christ would tell His disciples, that they, being the chosen generation shall not fall as their kinsmen did, and all who follow after evil to the end of days already have?

Huh? I do not think you read verses 34-35 correctly. It says that this generation will NOT PASS UNTIL all these things are fulfilled. You deliberately ignored the word "until" which God clearly tells us that this generation WILL pass away after all things are fulfilled first. And yes that will be the generation of evil that will pass, perish, end, go away etc. Deal with it.

No I don't ignore until! Neither do I use it as you do to force my doctrine into the text. Until does not mean 'then' this generation shall pass away. The chosen generation shall not pass until all has been fulfilled, because they shall endure forever. When all if fulfilled the chosen generation both the living and the dead shall be called up to meet the Lord in the air, having endured "all these things".

 

[Red Baker]

Jesus' warning was Biblical.

Its fulfillment was historical.

Not as you believe that Jesus' word meant..... "the Judaean Christians fled (the Roman armies) and escaped (destruction)".

I dealt with that here:

Seriously that is a borderline oxymoron statement~no pun intended, I just want your attention.

If you take Roman's army already in the temple in Jerusalem and having that city surrounded do you truly think that they could escape unto the little hills that surround Jerusalem and be safe? That's almost laughable, even young minds without the Spirit of God would laugh at that belief...and they should.

But, if interpreted to way Jesus meant this words to be understood, then no problem.... when we see the churches in our days over flooded with false prophets and their deluded followers, then it is time to flee them lest be be like them and deny the very God we profess to love and believe in. Read 2nd Timothy 3:5, etc. I could say much more, but enough on this point for now.

Not going to do so again, until I finish with more of Matthew 24.

I believe both.

You are wrong, dead wrong on both.

You believe neither.

Historical, I do not deny it, and neither do I use it to teach biblical truths to fill in missing links that others have no answers for! I labor to only find my answers from the word of God, not from a known infidel. By faith, I'm 100% convinced God in his rich mercy has provided answers for my faith in his word~not that I have already attain to perfect knowledge, yet I'm constantly following after the truth that I know is in his word alone. I thought this si what Bible Christians do, well, I speak as a fool, I know they do! All noble Christians do~Acts 17:11....the problem is, there are not many noble Christians left in this world~thousand of million professors.

I believe Biblical and historical.

Every time.

By God's help and mercy, I believe every word in my KJV bible as the very words of God. History is written by victors and for the most part, proud, evil and wicked ones at that. I take it with a grain of salt, if I believe it any. No man know for sure much about true history concerning the deeds of men...why this and why that~That's about like asking people on the streets why did the civil war start in America? Very, very few folks truly know, and it was not over Slavery, not even close! And that just happen 150 years ago plus.

So, I believe the word of God 100% .......and history well, that's a different beast altogether~very little is trustworthy.......unless, it is bible history written by holy men of old who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[covenantee]

Historical, I do not deny it

You certainly do deny it.

Because you weren't there!

 

[Red Baker]

Matthew 24...By D. W. "Red" Baker~continue​

Matthew 24:8-12~"All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

To get a true biblical understanding of Matthew 24~we search the Bible diligently, comparing scripture with scripture (the correct form in Biblical hermeneutics), we find that in almost all instances it is dealing in some way with God's profess people falling away or forsaking Him, to serve the gods of the people of this world. In other words, it clearly illustrates the spiritual idolatry of the professing people of Jesus Christ, in turning away from Him to serve false gods, while at the same time having a form of godliness, professing they are Christians, yet deny him in doctrines and deeds ~ and persecuting those that stay faithful to the scriptures in teaching the true gospel of free justification through the obedience and righteousness of the Son of God.

These reprobates think nothing of murdering the character of God's children with their hard condemnation of them and hating them for the truth that they maintain.

Consider what Paul said just before he left this world:

2nd Timothy 3:1-5~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Read 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 for big picture of the last days just before Jesus' coming, the same days Christ is speaking about in this discourse before us.

When the world is flooded with false prophets as it is now, all that does is increase wickedness within the professing churches~and when that increases so does inquinty outside of these profess places of worship~and when this takes place, and it has, the love of many will wax cold to a point where true biblical love is almost no longer practice and seen. Men are lovers of themselves, not of their neighbours.

False prophets produce likeness in their followers~covetous, boaster, proud, blasphemers, unthankful and unholy, men with a ungodly fierce spirit ruling them, their hatred is directed toward the true saints of God, for the god that they have come to believe in is not the same god that the saints of God teach and believe in. These false followers of latter day false prophets have created a god, that if they were God, then they would do this, and that, and that's the god they believe in and preach about~what makes this so dangerous is this~they used the name of Jesus Christ and tell others that Jesus is the Christ, but, they are working off of the premises of not what the word of God teaches, but what they think God and Christ should do, if they were God.

More on this when we considered the abomination of desolation.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 24...By D. W. "Red" Baker~continue​

To get a true biblical understanding of Matthew 24~we search the Bible diligently, comparing scripture with scripture (the correct form in Biblical hermeneutics), we find that in almost all instances it is dealing in some way with God's profess people falling away or forsaking Him, to serve the gods of the people of this world. In other words, it clearly illustrates the spiritual idolatry of the professing people of Jesus Christ, in turning away from Him to serve false gods, while at the same time having a form of godliness, professing they are Christians, yet deny him in doctrines and deeds ~ and persecuting those that stay faithful to the scriptures in teaching the true gospel of free justification through the obedience and righteousness of the Son of God.

These reprobates think nothing of murdering the character of God's children with their hard condemnation of them and hating them for the truth that they maintain.

Consider what Paul said just before he left this world:

Read 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 for big picture of the last days just before Jesus' coming, the same days Christ is speaking about in this discourse before us.

When the world is flooded with false prophets as it is now, all that does is increase wickedness within the professing churches~and when that increases so does inquinty outside of these profess places of worship~and when this takes place, and it has, the love of many will wax cold to a point where true biblical love is almost no longer practice and seen. Men are lovers of themselves, not of their neighbours.

False prophets produce likeness in their followers~covetous, boaster, proud, blasphemers, unthankful and unholy, men with a ungodly fierce spirit ruling them, their hatred is directed toward the true saints of God, for the god that they have come to believe in is not the same god that the saints of God teach and believe in. These false followers of latter day false prophets have created a god, that if they were God, then they would do this, and that, and that's the god they believe in and preach about~what makes this so dangerous is this~they used the name of Jesus Christ and tell others that Jesus is the Christ, but, they are working off of the premises of not what the word of God teaches, but what they think God and Christ should do, if they were God.

More on this when we considered the abomination of desolation.

It's not the same context at all! The Discourse paints a picture of what began to come to pass in the first century AD, while Timothy is painting a picture of what shall be the end of that which began to come to pass for first century disciples of Christ, and all faithful disciples that come after them.

 

[covenantee]

Matthew 24...By D. W. "Red" Baker~continue​

To get a true biblical understanding of Matthew 24~we search the Bible diligently, comparing scripture with scripture (the correct form in Biblical hermeneutics), we find that in almost all instances it is dealing in some way with God's profess people falling away or forsaking Him, to serve the gods of the people of this world. In other words, it clearly illustrates the spiritual idolatry of the professing people of Jesus Christ, in turning away from Him to serve false gods, while at the same time having a form of godliness, professing they are Christians, yet deny him in doctrines and deeds ~ and persecuting those that stay faithful to the scriptures in teaching the true gospel of free justification through the obedience and righteousness of the Son of God.

These reprobates think nothing of murdering the character of God's children with their hard condemnation of them and hating them for the truth that they maintain.

Consider what Paul said just before he left this world:

Read 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 for big picture of the last days just before Jesus' coming, the same days Christ is speaking about in this discourse before us.

When the world is flooded with false prophets as it is now, all that does is increase wickedness within the professing churches~and when that increases so does inquinty outside of these profess places of worship~and when this takes place, and it has, the love of many will wax cold to a point where true biblical love is almost no longer practice and seen. Men are lovers of themselves, not of their neighbours.

False prophets produce likeness in their followers~covetous, boaster, proud, blasphemers, unthankful and unholy, men with a ungodly fierce spirit ruling them, their hatred is directed toward the true saints of God, for the god that they have come to believe in is not the same god that the saints of God teach and believe in. These false followers of latter day false prophets have created a god, that if they were God, then they would do this, and that, and that's the god they believe in and preach about~what makes this so dangerous is this~they used the name of Jesus Christ and tell others that Jesus is the Christ, but, they are working off of the premises of not what the word of God teaches, but what they think God and Christ should do, if they were God.

More on this when we considered the abomination of desolation.

Did Jesus tell His listeners to go for coffee while He delivered His discourse, because what He would be saying would have absolutely no relevance to them?

Please cite the coffee Scripture for that.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It's not the same context at all! The Discourse paints a picture of what began to come to pass in the first century AD, while Timothy is painting a picture of what shall be the end of that which began to come to pass for first century disciples of Christ, and all faithful disciples that come after them.

The discourse was NOT talking about the first century. No.

There is no Biblical evidence that it's talking about anything but one time period when the Lord would return in judgment. These "signs" were "these things" that would be the harbinger of the Lord's Second Advent. When we carefully examine the WHOLE chapter in order, in context, we conclude the whole idea of AD 70 is forced and untenable! Read carefully in context:

Matthew 24:33-36

• "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
• Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
• But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

The time when "all these things" shall be fulfilled is "THE" end of the world. And all "these things" shall not be fulfilled until the end of the world. For a list of all "these things" one has only to carefully examine Matthew 24. Not "some" of these things, but "ALL" of these things must be fulfilled, and they weren't in AD 70. Sorry to disappoint you RWB and Covenantee.

Now I like to add that some Preterists even suggested the "40-year probationary period." I mean... what forty-year probationary period are you Preterists referring to? What chapter and verse is that prophecy in? I don't see the Biblical validation for saying that God prophesied to give Israel a forty-year probationary period. If that is true, where is the prophecy? Christ told Israel very clearly that, "behold your house is left unto you desolate." Despite popular ideas about Israel's judgment, Israel didn't fall in AD 70, but the minute Christ died on the cross. The minute that darkness covered the land. The Temple veil rent from top to bottom as a sign that the shadows or types of the land, Priest, and temple were completed. The physical Temple was no longer the Holy place, the veil within no longer separating men from God, as Christ the true Temple and veil now replaced it. Israel had been judged, blinded, and left with no prophet and no vision. And no, there was no probationary period! That Jerusalem had already been judged, their city burned, and their kingdom given to another. Not in AD 70, but at the time of Christ's death and resurrection. Remember the temple fell and CHrist rebuilt it in 3 days. It did not occur in 70AD!
Likewise, when the New Testament congregation is judged, it is the representation of Jerusalem. It is the beloved city that Revelation 20 says Satan attacks when he is loosed. It's not a plot of dirt or a physical city in the Middle East, It is the New Testament congregation. And speaking of this time when they are to flee and not come down from the housetops, etc, God continues..

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Was there great tribulation in AD 70 greater tribulation than at any other time period, or greater than any period since, or that ever will be? Please! Of Course Not!!! I don't care what that man called, Josephus claimed. The whole idea would require such gymnastics as to be spiritually twisted. Moreover...

Matthew 24:29-31

• "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
• And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
• And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

There is NO POSSIBILITY of erroneously intermingling these prophesies, For God first said the tribulation was in the days of fleeing to the mountains, and "THEN" seals these truths by declaring unambiguously that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation "of those days" there is seen the sign of Christ's return. Selah!

 

[covenantee]

The discourse was NOT talking about the first century. No.

There is no Biblical evidence that it's talking about anything but one time period when the Lord would return in judgment. These "signs" were "these things" that would be the harbinger of the Lord's Second Advent. When we carefully examine the WHOLE chapter in order, in context, we conclude the whole idea of AD 70 is forced and untenable! Read carefully in context:

Matthew 24:33-36

• "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
• Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
• But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

The time when "all these things" shall be fulfilled is "THE" end of the world. And all "these things" shall not be fulfilled until the end of the world. For a list of all "these things" one has only to carefully examine Matthew 24. Not "some" of these things, but "ALL" of these things must be fulfilled, and they weren't in AD 70. Sorry to disappoint you RWB and Covenantee.

Now I like to add that some Preterists even suggested the "40-year probationary period." I mean... what forty-year probationary period are you Preterists referring to? What chapter and verse is that prophecy in? I don't see the Biblical validation for saying that God prophesied to give Israel a forty-year probationary period. If that is true, where is the prophecy? Christ told Israel very clearly that, "behold your house is left unto you desolate." Despite popular ideas about Israel's judgment, Israel didn't fall in AD 70, but the minute Christ died on the cross. The minute that darkness covered the land. The Temple veil rent from top to bottom as a sign that the shadows or types of the land, Priest, and temple were completed. The physical Temple was no longer the Holy place, the veil within no longer separating men from God, as Christ the true Temple and veil now replaced it. Israel had been judged, blinded, and left with no prophet and no vision. And no, there was no probationary period! That Jerusalem had already been judged, their city burned, and their kingdom given to another. Not in AD 70, but at the time of Christ's death and resurrection. Remember the temple fell and CHrist rebuilt it in 3 days. It did not occur in 70AD!
Likewise, when the New Testament congregation is judged, it is the representation of Jerusalem. It is the beloved city that Revelation 20 says Satan attacks when he is loosed. It's not a plot of dirt or a physical city in the Middle East, It is the New Testament congregation. And speaking of this time when they are to flee and not come down from the housetops, etc, God continues..

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Was there great tribulation in AD 70 greater tribulation than at any other time period, or greater than any period since, or that ever will be? Please! Of Course Not!!! I don't care what that man called, Josephus claimed. The whole idea would require such gymnastics as to be spiritually twisted. Moreover...

Matthew 24:29-31

• "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
• And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
• And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

There is NO POSSIBILITY of erroneously intermingling these prophesies, For God first said the tribulation was in the days of fleeing to the mountains, and "THEN" seals these truths by declaring unambiguously that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation "of those days" there is seen the sign of Christ's return. Selah!

No disappointment at all.

Historical fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

Notwithstanding your opinion of Josephus, he is a recognized historian.

You're not.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (24:4,5).
Mark: “And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (13:5,6).
Luke: “And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them” (21:8).

We notice that all three accounts warn about deceivers. But Luke’s account explains WHEN these things would happen. Jesus Said: “And the time DRAWETH NEAR: go ye not therefore after them.” Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later. Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing near in their time. This is plain.

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour’s death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY — a statement which indicates that there were many of such in those days.

An Egyptian who “pretended to be a prophet” gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show “how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down.”

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet.

These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were a great number, and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be “many.”

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow