Rapture is not in the Bible

[michaelvpardo]

I do believe in a pre-trib rapture. But, I think (2Thess. 2-3) is speaking more to the 'Day of the Lord". Which means the rapture would have already occurred.

I know (Luke 17) is commonly used by many to be the rapture, but I believe (Luke 17:22-37) speaks to the 2nd Coming of Christ. Which of course occurs after the Tribulation. With the 'two and one taken' examples, the one taken is not a rapture but a judgement of death. Which is why the flood of Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah are used as examples.

Stranger

Just curious, do you hold to the notion that the first resurrection is really multiple resurrections, as John McArthur teaches? From his point of view the first resurrection is the resurrection of the just, and the second, the great white throne judgment, that of the condemned. I find that view problematic because of the millennial reign of Christ, but perhaps there will be no one accounted as righteous during that reign (which doesn't seem likely.)

 

[n2thelight]

I can say that because I didn't jump from (2 Thess. 2:1) to (2 Thess. 2:3). I included (2 Thess. 2:2).

(2 Thess. 2:1-3) " Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Stranger

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

The above does not change the subject from verse 1 which is the return of Christ and our gathering,so yes,I still don't understand!!!

 

[Stranger]

Just curious, do you hold to the notion that the first resurrection is really multiple resurrections, as John McArthur teaches? From his point of view the first resurrection is the resurrection of the just, and the second, the great white throne judgment, that of the condemned. I find that view problematic because of the millennial reign of Christ, but perhaps there will be no one accounted as righteous during that reign (which doesn't seem likely.)

I don't know what McArtuher teaches as I am not a big fan of his. But I do believe the terms first and second pertaining to the resurrections are ordinal and not cardinal. In other words it doesn't matter when or how many of the resurrections take place they are either of the first or second.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

The above does not change the subject from verse 1 which is the return of Christ and our gathering,so yes,I still don't understand!!!

It shows that the day in (2:3) is speaking not our gathering unto Him, but of the day of the Lord, or the day of Christ. (2:3) says "that day shall not come". What day. The day of Christ he just spoke of in (2:2).

Stranger

 

[michaelvpardo]

It shows that the day in (2:3) is speaking not our gathering unto Him, but of the day of the Lord, or the day of Christ. (2:3) says "that day shall not come". What day. The day of Christ he just spoke of in (2:2).

Stranger

Correct and the passage is about the gathering of Christians to Christ upon the day of the Lord, isn't it?

 

[Stranger]

Correct and the passage is about the gathering of Christians to Christ upon the day of the Lord, isn't it?

The gathering of Christians unto Christ is the rapture, 'not the day of the Lord'.

The 'day of the Lord' is not just one 24 hr. period. It is a time period that involves both the tribulation period and the millennium. Paul had told the Thessalonicans that the church would be raptured out, (1Thess. 4:13-18), and that they would not be part of the 'day of the Lord'. (1 Thess. 5:1-4)

In (2 Thess.) someone had written a letter to the Thessalonicans and said that the troubles they were going through was the 'day of the Lord. (2:2) And Paul is addressing that because the Thessalonicans feared they had missed the rapture and were in the 'day of the Lord'.

So Paul in (2 Thess. 2:1) beseeches the Thessalonicans on behalf of the rapture, or their being gathered together unto Christ.

He tells them in (2:2) not to be troubled that the 'day of Christ' or the 'day of the Lord' has already come. Which was what they had been told by some.

He tells them in (2:3) that before the 'day of the Lord' or 'that day', comes there will first be a falling away, and the anti-Christ be revealed. Who he goes on to describe in (2:4-9).

So, the rapture of believers takes place first. Nothing need happen before that. It can happen at any time. How long exactly after, that the falling away takes place and the anti-Christ revealed I don't know. Not long however as the Holy Spirit no longer is a restraining force against the mystery of iniquity. So the apostasy and the falling away will occur at a more rapid rate.

Stranger

 

[michaelvpardo]

The gathering of Christians unto Christ is the rapture, 'not the day of the Lord'.

The 'day of the Lord' is not just one 24 hr. period. It is a time period that involves both the tribulation period and the millennium. Paul had told the Thessalonicans that the church would be raptured out, (1Thess. 4:13-18), and that they would not be part of the 'day of the Lord'. (1 Thess. 5:1-4)

In (2 Thess.) someone had written a letter to the Thessalonicans and said that the troubles they were going through was the 'day of the Lord. (2:2) And Paul is addressing that because the Thessalonicans feared they had missed the rapture and were in the 'day of the Lord'.

So Paul in (2 Thess. 2:1) beseeches the Thessalonicans on behalf of the rapture, or their being gathered together unto Christ.

He tells them in (2:2) not to be troubled that the 'day of Christ' or the 'day of the Lord' has already come. Which was what they had been told by some.

He tells them in (2:3) that before the 'day of the Lord' or 'that day', comes there will first be a falling away, and the anti-Christ be revealed. Who he goes on to describe in (2:4-9).

So, the rapture of believers takes place first. Nothing need happen before that. It can happen at any time. How long exactly after, that the falling away takes place and the anti-Christ revealed I don't know. Not long however as the Holy Spirit no longer is a restraining force against the mystery of iniquity. So the apostasy and the falling away will occur at a more rapid rate.

Stranger

Okay, it's not what the Lord's taught me, but I suppose that we'll all know shortly. If given the choice, I would stay behind to care for and minister to the 144,000 children that the Lord raises up as His special possession, and to the suffering lost souls deceived by Satan, but why would a God of grace and truth want that?

 

[bbyrd009]

It can happen at any time. How long exactly after, that the falling away takes place and the anti-Christ revealed I don't know.

70 AD fits pretty good imo

 

[Stranger]

Okay, it's not what the Lord's taught me, but I suppose that we'll all know shortly. If given the choice, I would stay behind to care for and minister to the 144,000 children that the Lord raises up as His special possession, and to the suffering lost souls deceived by Satan, but why would a God of grace and truth want that?

That's fine. Go with what the Lord has taught you.

I don't understand your question. Why would God want what?

Stranger

 

[michaelvpardo]

That's fine. Go with what the Lord has taught you.

I don't understand your question. Why would God want what?

Stranger

The great commission.

 

[Stranger]

The great commission.

I don't follow.

Stranger

 

[michaelvpardo]

The bulk of the church at large in my native country, seems to be totally unconcerned about the 12 tribes of 12000 that God will raise up to give testimony and be martyrs during the tribulation period or reign of the antichrist. After all they're just a bunch of Jewish virgins, and surely God will teach them what they need to know and how to survive during this horrific period of time. This seems kind of loveless to me. I know that God is able to do just that, but in the past the Lord has commanded His own to care for the needs of their brethren. I assume that you know what I mean by "the great commission" , but in a society concerned primarily with self, family, and comfort, I'll post the appropriate verses for those unfamiliar with the expression.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on Earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:18-20
This will be kind of difficult if we aren't here. I'm unclear what Jesus meant by end of the age, but I don't think He was speaking of a church age, as the gentile church didn't exist yet (though I wouldn't carve that in stone.)
Does it bother you at all that our gracious and loving God would abandon His "tribulation saints" to fend for themselves? That isn't the Jesus that I know.

 

[bbyrd009]

Does it bother you at all that our gracious and loving God would abandon His "tribulation saints" to fend for themselves? That isn't the Jesus that I know.

i'm surprised that you aren't more concerned with the "and lo, I am with you always" part. If He is with us always, how can He be coming back?

 

[Stranger]

The bulk of the church at large in my native country, seems to be totally unconcerned about the 12 tribes of 12000 that God will raise up to give testimony and be martyrs during the tribulation period or reign of the antichrist. After all they're just a bunch of Jewish virgins, and surely God will teach them what they need to know and how to survive during this horrific period of time. This seems kind of loveless to me. I know that God is able to do just that, but in the past the Lord has commanded His own to care for the needs of their brethren. I assume that you know what I mean by "the great commission" , but in a society concerned primarily with self, family, and comfort, I'll post the appropriate verses for those unfamiliar with the expression.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on Earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:18-20
This will be kind of difficult if we aren't here. I'm unclear what Jesus meant by end of the age, but I don't think He was speaking of a church age, as the gentile church didn't exist yet (though I wouldn't carve that in stone.)
Does it bother you at all that our gracious and loving God would abandon His "tribulation saints" to fend for themselves? That isn't the Jesus that I know.

Concerning the 144,000, God places a seal upon them and they are miraculously protected by Him during the Tribulation period. (Rev. 7:3-8)

But there will be others who become believers at that time and they will be martyred for their faith. This is the price one pays for being a believer at this time. The age has definitely changed in that the Church is gone. The Great Commission was given to the Church. And it was given in place of the Gospel of the kingdom which was first preached. During the Tribulation the Gospel is not, believe on Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, it is like what (Rev. 14:7-8) declares. "...Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Just because many of God's people are martyred doesn't mean God has abandoned them. But martyrdom is their lot. (Rev. 7:9-17)

Stranger

 

[buddyt]

So many good Christians have been brain washed into believing in a Rapture before Christ return. The word of God teaches of a First and a Second Advent. It teaches nothing to support a so called Rapture. However God does tell us in Ezekiel 13:20 he is against those who teach this Fly Away thing. Just like all other things of the world He knew this would be taught. Be smart don't be Fooled by Satan's promoted teachings. Do you believe God or do you believe Man.

 

[Stranger]

So many good Christians have been brain washed into believing in a Rapture before Christ return. The word of God teaches of a First and a Second Advent. It teaches nothing to support a so called Rapture. However God does tell us in Ezekiel 13:20 he is against those who teach this Fly Away thing. Just like all other things of the world He knew this would be taught. Be smart don't be Fooled by Satan's promoted teachings. Do you believe God or do you believe Man.

Such a statement as this does nothing to take away from the 'rapture'. To identify the rapture of the Church with this passage simply because the word 'fly' is used shows the extent those will go to reject the 'rapture'.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

rapture maybe just shows the extent satan will go to to keep you from meeting Him in the air though, Stranger.

Christ is "with you always, even unto the end of the age."

also you might note that it was "women" in Ezekiel's time, and also a woman back in the late 19th C that resurrected "rapture" doctrine. Also if you don't believe that Ezekiel meant rapture, you at least have to identify what he did mean, if you are earnestly seeking truth.

 

[michaelvpardo]

i'm surprised that you aren't more concerned with the "and lo, I am with you always" part. If He is with us always, how can He be coming back?

Well, my understanding is that He is with us by way of His Spirit and in us if we've received Him, again by His Spirit, but He promised to return physically and the two witnesses in the beginning of the book of the acts of the apostles declared that He would return in the same manner in which He left (although this time descending rather than ascending with the clouds of heaven.)
I think that the world is preparing to try to stop him. Just last week I read an online article that said that NASA was looking to hire someone as a director of planetary defense. Officially this position is about defending the planet from alien attack or really big rocks and why the sudden concern?

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, my understanding is that He is with us by way of His Spirit and in us if we've received Him, again by His Spirit, but He promised to return physically and the two witnesses in the beginning of the book of the acts of the apostles declared that He would return in the same manner in which He left (although this time descending rather than ascending with the clouds of heaven.)

Why be left behind on rapture day??? since i'm arguing this in two threads now.

so, were the angels just lying to those standing there looking up, or what? Because if Jesus has not returned, and they were told that they would see Him...etc. You are being massaged, and your pov is being anticipated and used against you, so to speak

 

[bbyrd009]

I think that the world is preparing to try to stop him. Just last week I read an online article that said that NASA was looking to hire someone as a director of planetary defense. Officially this position is about defending the planet from alien attack or really big rocks and why the sudden concern?

ha, your grandchildren's tax dollars at work, i guess. Yours are all spent of course