Bible alone

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,420
685
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Finally, I understand your objection. Let me summarize some possible interpretations. Each interpretation pivots on the term "and", which has a wide range of meaning. Consider the following interpretations.

Interpretation A:
"and" means "as well as"
"unless one is born of water [as well as] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation B:
"and" means "along with"
"unless one is born of water [along with] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation C:
"and" means "together with"
"unless one is born of water [together with] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation D:
"and" means "in addition to"
"unless one is born of water [in addition to] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation E:
"and" serves to express hendiadys*
"unless one is born of [spiritual water] he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I think Jesus means interpretation A above. I gather you would pick one of the others?

__________________
*hendiadys
the expression of a single idea by two words connected with “and,”
e.g., nice and warm, when one could be used to modify the other, as in nicely warm.
To clarify, as I've stated, "water" there either refers to the Spirit or to the Word. "Water of the Word". I'm fine with either.
What I cannot accept, because of what I'd explained, is that "water" there refers to any kind of literal water (either baptismal waters or amniotic fluids).
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,420
685
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
peter stood up
All submitted to his authority
Jurisdictional authority
Same in acts 1:15 peter stood up
All submit to his authority
He has the keys he is the holy father of kingdom of david
LOL You are funny. You don't think you just keep parroting the same propaganda. How much is Rome paying you?
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To clarify, as I've stated, "water" there either refers to the Spirit or to the Word. "Water of the Word". I'm fine with either.
What I cannot accept, because of what I'd explained, is that "water" there refers to any kind of literal water (either baptismal waters or amniotic fluids).

clean pure water
Ez 36:25-37
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
5. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Tell me, what kind of earth? Some say a figurative earth, but it is not this, for nowhere in Scripture do we find any mention of an earth that is merely figurative. But what can the saying mean? He holds out a sensible prize; even as Paul also does, in that when he had said, Honor your father and your mother,Ephesians 6:2 he added, For so shall you live long upon the earth. And He Himself unto the thief again, Today shall you be with me in Paradise. Luke 23:43

Thus He does not incite us by means of the future blessings only, but of the present also, for the sake of the grosser sort of His hearers, and such as before the future seek those others.

Thus, for example, further on also He said, Agree with your adversary. Matthew 5:25Then He appoints the reward of such self-command, and says, Lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer. Matthew 5:25 Do you see whereby He alarmed us? By the things of sense, by what happens before our eyes. And again, Whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. Matthew 5:22

And Paul too sets forth sensible rewards at great length, and uses things present in his exhortations; as when he is discoursing about virginity. For having said nothing about the heavens there, for the time he urges it by things present, saying, Because of the present distress, and, But I spare you, and, I would have you without carefulness.

Thus accordingly Christ also with the things spiritual has mingled the sensible. For whereas the meek man is thought to lose all his own, He promises the contrary, saying, Nay, but this is he who possesses his goods in safety, namely, he who is not rash, nor boastful: while that sort of man shall often lose his patrimony, and his very life.

And besides, since in the Old Testament the prophet used to say continually, The meek shall inherit the earth; He thus weaves into His discourse the words to which they were accustomed, so as not everywhere to speak a strange language.

And this He says, not as limiting the rewards to things present, but as joining with these the other sort of gifts also. For neither in speaking of any spiritual thing does He exclude such as are in the present life; nor again in promising such as are in our life, does He limit his promise to that kind. For He says, Seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33 And again: Whosoever has left houses or brethren, shall receive an hundred fold in this world, and in the future shall inherit everlasting life.

6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness. Matthew 5:6

What sort of righteousness? He means either the whole of virtue, or that particular virtuewhich is opposed to covetousness. For since He is about to give commandment concerning mercy, to show how we must show mercy, as, for instance, not of rapine or covetousness, He blesses them that lay hold of righteousness.

And see with what exceeding force He puts it. For He said not, Blessed are they which keep fast by righteousness, but, Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: that not merely anyhow, but with all desire we may pursue it. For since this is the most peculiar property of covetousness, and we are not so enamored of meat and drink, as of gaining, and compassing ourselves with more and more, He bade us to transfer this desire to a new object, freedom from covetousness.

Then He appoints the prize, again from things sensible; saying, for they shall be filled. Thus, because it is thought that the rich are commonly made such by covetousness, Nay,says He, it is just contrary: for it is righteousness that does this. Wherefore, so long as you do righteously, fear not poverty, nor tremble at hunger. For the extortioners, they are the very persons who lose all, even as he certainly who is in love with righteousness, possesses himself the goods of all men in safety.

But if they who covet not other men's goods enjoy so great abundance, much more they who give up their own.

Blessed are the merciful. Matthew 5:7

Here He seems to me to speak not of those only who show mercy in giving of money, but those likewise who are merciful in their actions. For the way of showing mercy is manifold, and this commandment is broad. What then is the reward thereof? For they shall obtain mercy.

And it seems indeed to be a sort of equal recompence, but it is a far greater thing than the act of goodness. For whereas they themselves show mercy as men, they obtain mercy from the God of all; and it is not the same thing, man's mercy, and God's; but as wide as is the interval between wickedness and goodness, so far is the one of these removed from the other.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8

Behold again the reward is spiritual. Now He here calls pure, either those who have attained unto all virtue, and are not conscious to themselves of any evil; or those who live in temperance. For there is nothing which we need so much in order to see God, as this last virtue. Wherefore Paul also said, Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14 He is here speaking of such sight as it is possible for man to have.

For because there are many who show mercy, and who commit no rapine, nor are covetous, who yet are guilty of fornication and uncleanness; to signify that the former alone suffices not, He has added this, much in the same sense as Paul, writing to the Corinthians, bore witness of the Macedonians, that they were rich not only in almsgiving, but also in all other virtue. For having spoken of the noble spirit they had shown in regard of their goods, he says, They gave also their own selves to the Lord, and to us. 2 Corinthians 8:5

Saint John Chrysostom
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ephesians 5:26 water = the Word
John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Eph 4:5
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,420
685
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Eph 4:5
Isn't 1 John 5:7 recognized as an interpolation?

In the context of 1 John 5, since it's talking about literal blood, perhaps the "water" there is literal water, too--the water that issued from His side (just as the blood did).The OT features many cleansing rituals in which this combination (water and blood) is utilized; when these two issue from our Savior's side, this fact should be brought to mind.
 
Last edited:

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Isn't 1 John 5:7 recognized as an interpolation?

In the context of 1 John 5, since it's talking about literal blood, perhaps the "water" there is literal water, too--the water that issued from His side (just as the blood did).The OT features many cleansing rituals in which this combination (water and blood) is vital; so when these two issue from our Savior's side, this fact should be brought to mind.
Interestingly, this water is actually a part of Him Who is "The Word".

the merits or grace of his blood are applied thru the sacraments
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,420
685
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
...
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Eph 4:5
We know that Abel's blood cried out to God, and that Hebrews says the blood of Christ also is testifying--thus, also, the water that issued from Christ is bearing witness and presenting testimony to God.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We've already proven your pagan church only leads to paganism it is now returning to. No one here takes your system seriously.


Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4

Have you put on Christ?
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,420
685
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4

Have you put on Christ?
Your Church says atheists can go to heaven. Nuff said.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,420
685
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
please? Show many church teaching that says such nonsense Heb 11:6
The Pope said it. "just follow your conscience do good and we'll meet you on the way" something like that. Also "who am I to judge?" on gays. Kissing the Quran. Blessing idolatry. Sick twisted people call that holy. Who cares about the "official" teachings--they're what LED to this. Anyway it's off topic.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Pope said it. "just follow your conscience do good and we'll meet you on the way" something like that. Also "who am I to judge?" on gays. Kissing the Quran. Blessing idolatry. Sick twisted people call that holy. Who cares about the "official" teachings--they're what LED to this. Anyway it's off topic.

What evidence do you have that he is pope or teaches the catholic faith?

If he teaches heresy he is outside the faith and outside the church!

you forgot the blasphemy and sacrilege at Assisi!

now I’m with you on all that and pachimamu too

what about all these fake charlatan Protestant televangelists
Swaggard
Joel O
peter popoff
Robertson

Etc.
prosperity gospel nuts on you’re side?
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,420
685
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What evidence do you have that he is pope or teaches the catholic faith?

If he teaches heresy he is outside the faith and outside the church!

you forgot the blasphemy and sacrilege at Assisi!

now I’m with you on all that and pachimamu too

what about all these fake charlatan Protestant televangelists
Swaggard
Joel O
peter popoff
Robertson

Etc.
prosperity gospel nuts on you’re side?
LOL Here's the difference : we say "We're trying to follow God's Word, and we're learning; and if anyone, including any of us, goes astray just ignore them." We don't claim Infallibility. We don't claim the unbiblical things you do.

Anyway last comment on that subject here. Not fruitful. Worthless waste of time and not on topic.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LOL Here's the difference : we say "We're trying to follow God's Word, and we're learning; and if anyone, including any of us, goes astray just ignore them." We don't claim Infallibility. We don't claim the unbiblical things you do.

Anyway last comment on that subject here. Not fruitful. Worthless waste of time and not on topic.

lk 3:2 the word of God came to John
How? What scripture?
Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture God sent and apostle to teach him

the apostle or church must teach
We must be instructed
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 etc.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LOL Here's the difference : we say "We're trying to follow God's Word, and we're learning; and if anyone, including any of us, goes astray just ignore them." We don't claim Infallibility. We don't claim the unbiblical things you do.

Anyway last comment on that subject here. Not fruitful. Worthless waste of time and not on topic.


Bible yes
But in the church taught by the apostles

Bible alone no

tradition that which is taught, handed down, made known

  1. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
    Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    2 John 1:12
    Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.