Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

Behold said:

I didnt ask you if you read denominational theology.
I asked you if you've ever been to chruch.
This question is too difficult for you?

Now....Read more carefully.
I said that Apostles, and similar ministers, use "we", when they preach to unbelievers, in their Epistles.
This is not difficult to understand.
Then i gave you a few examples that you didnt take time to examine.

And one more time.. .All believers have become the righteousness of Christ, "made righteous".
Jesus has their sin, and they, the believers, born again, have BECOME= "the righteousness of God in Christ".

Let me show you one more....

Every believer, born again has become the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
Now, this means that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, live in the born again, in Spiritual union.
Does God live where sin is found?
If you think He does then you are a very long distance away from understanding what it means to be born again, as a "new Creation in Christ".

Click to expand...

Why in the world would it be too difficult for me to tell you if I've ever been to church? You lost right there with that. If that's your attitude I have no interest in reading any further.

2 Tim 2:16,

Behold said:

What "tickles the Devil" is when people who refer to themselves as Christians, do not understand ..

"Jesus BECAME sin" and the born again became and remain "made righteous", and are "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

see that?
You do not understand that, Rich R.... and the Devil is "tickled".
That's a fact.

Click to expand...

You are right as far as the holy spirit we all have. That is indeed as righteous as God. But until we get new bodies when Jesus comes back, we all have flesh and Paul is clear that there is no good thing in the flesh. According to Romans 7, there is a constant battle between the flesh and the spirit. There are tons of verses that exhort us to walk by the spirit and not the flesh. There would be no reason for such exhortations if we were not prone to walk by the flesh.

Our relationship with God is like our relationship with our earthly fathers in that we are always their son and daughter and thus have the privilege to enjoy all the benefits of that relationship. But we are all perfectly capable of could abandoning our father, go against his wishes and loose thereby loose many of those benefits.

God knows we will walk by the flesh at times, hence His grace of forgiveness as per 1 John 1:9. Of course the caveat in that verse is that we have to confess our sins, admit when we walk by the flesh and not by the spirit. All we have to do is admit to God that we blew it and all is made well again.

Maybe I misunderstand you. Do you believe a Christian is incapable of lying for example (I think that is what someone here told me)? Or is it that someone that lies is not a Christian? If that's the case, I don't think we'd have many Christians, if any at all. Jesus is the only human who never lied. And even if by some rare quirk, there was a Christian who never lied, they'd surely do something else against God's will. As I pointed out, we all have flesh and there is no good thing in it. Our flesh nature is sinful. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and people sin.

It is wrong to think that God did anything with our flesh. All his workmanship resides within the holy spirit which he gave us at our new birth. It is here that is found the perfection you mention. Why else would God say Jesus will change our vile bodies into glorious bodies when he returns? Until then, we have both a sin nature that is intrinsic to the flesh as well as the spiritual nature which, as you say, is perfect. God tells us many times to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh. He has a reason for telling us that, namely, that we have the choice to walk by sinful flesh or perfect spirit. But if a Christian is under the impression that they never sin, not only to they make God a liar (1 John 1:8-10), but we forgo the forgiveness that is so easily acquired. If I'm correct in all of that, clearly the devil would be well pleased.

Since I asked you a question and would be curious as to your answer (can a Christian lie?), it would only be fair that I should answer your question. I want to Catholic school for 12 years, so yes, I went to church much. I'm not sure how that is relevant, but there's your answer.

1stCenturyLady said:

I believe you received the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe you have His one and only interpretation of that verse. The next verse tells you how to no longer be a sinner, sinning every instant.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

So as far as being lightyears away from what Jesus would be doing, this verse contradicts you. Also being glorified is truly partaking of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-4. I know and believe His Word. Misrepresenting His word for itching ears may fill the pews but does nothing to enter heaven. 2 Peter 1:10-11. We must grow to the point of never stumbling. Your statement of: "Does this mean I am sinning every instant - yes..." is a slap in Jesus face, who died and was resurrected in order for us to be free from sin. Romans 6:6-7, "6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin." @Rich R, if this verse doesn't tell you who to believe, nothing will. You will have made up your mind and are not open to the truth. So what will it be? Will you join me in heaven, or live life sinning on earth.

@Rich R, Hi dear, you can believe Carl or me. We both have the Spirit, but only one of us is listening to the gift of hearing God's voice. Are you going to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, or enjoy the comforting words of false teachers that sound righteous, but are far from you being righteous, as they teach that you will sin but not be condemned for them, instead of teaching you what the apostles and I said of staying free from sin as Jesus has empowered you to partake of the divine nature of God, 1 John 5:18. 2 Peter 1:2-11

Click to expand...

Rom 6:12,

Apparently it is possible to let sin reign in our mortal body, the flesh in which no good thing dwells.

I never said we will be condemned by our sins. We have already been judged and found righteous, but all of that is in the spirit we got at the new birth, all because of Jesus' perfect walk, not our own. The new birth doesn't do anything with the flesh. It is a vile after the new birth as it was before the new birth. The only difference is that we, unlike natural people, have a choice to walk by the spirit. They, not having spirit, are bound by the sinful flesh.

Phil 3:21,


That is future. Until then we still have vile bodies in which no good thing dwells, hence we sin. But 1 John has it covered. All we have to do is confess our sins, admit to God we walked by the flesh, and He'll fix us right up again! But such forgiveness require we confess our sins. If we say we don't sin, we won't get the forgiveness, we make God a liar, and we walk in darkness.

No, I won't see you in heaven, but I will see you in the new earth. Revelation is clear that Jesus will reign on the earth and Thessalonians says we'll be with him. God Promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others a physical land. God didn't tell Abraham to look up into heaven when He promised him the kingdom. He said, "Lift up your eyes and see the land that I will give you..."

1stCenturyLady said:

That is true, it is possible, but Romans 6 says seeing as we are dead to sin, why would you want to? We can keep ourselves pure in order to go to heaven, 2 Peter 1:10-11, 1 John 3:1-3. Or do you actually believe the false doctrine that anyone other than the righteous or holy will be allowed in. NO! Only overcomers through the power of Jesus filling us with His Spirit. We have His divine power to not sin because He has taken away our old sin nature and freed us from sin. Romans 6:6-7. And the more mature you are in the Lord and the more and more you abide in Him, and see how He abides in you, you WANT to keep yourselves righteous, and the devil cannot touch you. 1 John 5:18. But Paul does warn us in Romans 6:15-16 "15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"

Rich, it seems like you and Carl are trying your darnedest to prove you can be saved while justifying willfully sinning. Just how difficult is it for you to just obey your conscience and stay righteous? 1 John 3:21. It is easy. His yoke is easy, and His burden is light. That's all you have to do if you actually have the Spirit of Christ in you, just follow your new nature. Or do you not believe Jesus Christ is God? Romans 8:9 shows you that He is, and you must have His Spirit in you to belong to Him. If Jesus was just a created being, his spirit couldn't do anything for you. We cannot be possessed by another human's spirit. I wrote this on another Christian site, but to a non-Christian Jew.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

The part of God called the Word, emptied Himself of His deity to become implanted in Mary. She bore Jesus Christ. The Word was not a created being. The Word was not "a" god, He is God, and why we must have the Spirit of Christ in us to be free from sin. Because of the sin nature, there was no man pure enough that could give his life to reconcile us to God. And the blood of bulls and goats couldn't even come close. It had to be repeated over and over. Jesus' death for three days reconciled mankind to God, defeating Satan in those who accept His gift to us.

Click to expand...

As I'm sure you know, by cherry picking certain verses it is possible to prove anything at all. However, we dare not do that. We must consider the overall context of the scriptures.

Yes, our spirits are perfect and can not sin. That is why we are told to walk by that spirit. When we do we won't sin. However it is possible, by our free will choices, to not walk by the spirit. We are all perfectly capable of walking by the flesh and we all do that. The only perfect human was Jesus. The rest of us sin from time to time. 1 John is written to Christians and there we find the solution to the sins we commit.
Why would God have to tell us to walk by the spirit so as to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh is it were not possible to do that? He gives us the same message over and over again, so there must be a reason for Him having done so.

I don't know why you think I am saying we can sin and it's all OK. No. Sinning is not OK. It is walking by the flesh and not by the spirit, never a good thing. Nonetheless to say we never walk by the flesh makes God a liar and we walk in darkness. Mind you, I didn't write 1 John so these aren't my ideas.

We are presently in the devil's pawn shop. He is the god of this world. That will be the case until Jesus returns and redeems our mortal bodies. At that time we will never sin again. But until then Romans 7 is very relevant to our lives. It is talking about believers. Paul was as clear as can be when he said his flesh serves the law of sin. That is Paul, a believer's believer, if you will.

Verse 26 is clear that his body will get delivered from sin, but that is in the future. It fits perfectly with Jesus changing our vile bodies so they will be like his (Phil 3:21). Again the future tense is used there.

Rom 8:23,

While true our spirits are perfect and don't sin, there is more to the story. As I said the entire book must be considered. Romans 8:23 is clear that we are sitll waiting for the redemption of our bodies. When Jesus comes back, our bodies will be redeemed and we'll get brand new bodies that are like his glorious body (Phil 3:21). Until then, we sin from time to time, sometimes willfully and sometimes not, but we do sin. As John says, to say otherwise is to call God a liar and we end up walking in darkness. But if we confess it our sins, God will forgive us and cleans us from all unrighteousness.

Behold said:

I didnt ask you if you read denominational theology.
I asked you if you've ever been to chruch.
This question is too difficult for you?

Now....Read more carefully.
I said that Apostles, and similar ministers, use "we", when they preach to unbelievers, in their Epistles.
This is not difficult to understand.
Then i gave you a few examples that you didnt take time to examine.

And one more time.. .All believers have become the righteousness of Christ, "made righteous".
Jesus has their sin, and they, the believers, born again, have BECOME= "the righteousness of God in Christ".

Let me show you one more....

Every believer, born again has become the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
Now, this means that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, live in the born again, in Spiritual union.
Does God live where sin is found?
If you think He does then you are a very long distance away from understanding what it means to be born again, as a "new Creation in Christ".

Click to expand...

While I don't doubt what you say about how "we" is used in today's world, are you certain that a culture quite different than our own and separated from our own by 2,000 years would understand it the same way? I'm thinking probably not. But it would take some research to come up with a definitive answer, especially if we want to build an entire doctrine on it.

1stCenturyLady said:

Again, you are referring to a verse about an unsaved person before confessing their sin and coming to Christ. That is what we do not agree on. You and Carl believe 1 John 1:8 is about a Christian because of the word, "we." But 1 John 1:9 is the same as Acts 2:38. It is how to receive the Holy Spirit who makes us dead to sin, and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. If you are cleansed of all unrighteousness and cannot sin, is it still a lie to say you do not sin? Or are you agreeing with God and Jesus who died for that very reason?

But guess what. If you are dead to sin, and yet cannot reckon yourself dead to sin, and instead believe you will always be a sinner, you will choose to sin when you don't have to. You've set yourself up for failure. Then Romans 6:15-16 makes you turn back to Satan, and your ears will gravitate to doctrines of "just believe in Jesus and those sins you will still sin or be a liar will be cleansed because of Christ's righteousness and not your own. That is a very popular myth. None of the apostles taught that myth. But people twist scripture and make it say whatever they want to.

Also, our body by itself does not make us sin. It is just a shell. But it does cause us pain and it grows tired and weak, and at my age it hurts a lot. Right now it is not immortal. It needs to die, and then at the resurrection it will be changed to match our divine nature - our reborn spirit and soul.

It appears that it is time to dust off my shoes and find another post to share in. We are way off topic anyway.

Click to expand...

Setting myself up for failure? I think not!

1 Pet 1:3-4,


That doesn't sound like a failure to me.

Rom 8:16-17,


That doesn't sound like a failure.

2Tim 4:8,

No failure there either.

Col 1:5,

That doesn't sound like a failure.

Anyway, I could go on and on about our future, but I think you're right about us having rung this out.