22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
I'm not a Dispensationalist, but some of Darby's thoughts were correct and are in the Bible. I call it "the Jewish Hope."

"The Jewish Hope"?

Your "National Israel" belief is a fairy tale Randy, found no place in scripture, only to be found in the Sci-Fi section of religious Zionism

The only hope for all of mankind is salvation through the finished work on Calvary, it's that simple

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
I'm not a Dispensationalist, but some of Darby's thoughts were correct and are in the Bible. I call it "the Jewish Hope."

Your the New kid on the block Randy, walking in the Zionist footsteps of John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield

Your new buzzword "The Jewish Hope" doesn't change the Zionist teaching, it's plain ole dual covenant theology in two peoples of God (Jew/Church), nothing new as you suggest

Timtofly · Aug 19, 2022

Spiritual Israelite said:
Good reference, Jeff. Once again a Premil has completely overlooked what scripture teaches. Nothing new. Jesus will be the Judge on the great white throne, as this verse, and passages like Matthew 25:31-46, make abundantly clear.

Of course after Jesus hands back creation to God. But that is outside of time and not part of the NHNE. Still not proof of timing, but your own opinion, inserted into the text.

The GWT has always existed. It does not pop into existence some time in the future. Jesus is currently sitting on the right hand of that GWT since the Cross. There is no creation after Jesus hands it back to God.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Matthew 25:31 is not the GWT. It is the throne in Jerusalem that Satan takes over for 42 months. Now you have Satan sitting on the GWT because you cannot keep your thrones separate like you cannot keep your judgments separate.

Revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

The same throne and temple in Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Jesus is not sitting on that throne, because it will not happen until then. Jesus sets it up Himself.

The GWT cannot be seen right now because we are spiritually blind, but it is on earth and in heaven, and always has been. David wrote about it, so God must have let him see it. Paul says it will be seen at the Second Coming:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

The great God on the GWT. John says that is at the 6th Seal:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

God on the GWT is seen AND the Lamb.

The Lamb will set up a throne in a temple in Jerusalem. This is after He comes to the Mount of Olives and totally re-arranges Jerusalem.

Notice the heavens dissolve as in 2 Peter 3, the works on earth are all burned up: Now Jesus will judge from Jerusalem, and all will see the face of God on the GWT wherever it is located since creation. Most Scripture indicates the sides of the north. So earth is on a level plain in a circle around the GWT, and all on earth will clearly see the face of God on the GWT.

Satan's virtual universe will all melt away, every last atom.

"in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,"

I guess we will miraculously stop living in a 14 billion year old universe, and the earth will immediately stop being a planet in the solar system, and become a flat earth once again like Genesis 1 declares, and the sun and moon will just be 2 lights again in the firmament, and all the stars in the firmament will turn into angels and all come to earth. Since you all don't accept that now, but deceived by Satan and his mythology.

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2022

Timtofly said:
The Lamb will set up a throne in a temple in Jerusalem. This is after He comes to the Mount of Olives and totally re-arranges Jerusalem.

Notice the heavens dissolve as in 2 Peter 3, the works on earth are all burned up: Now Jesus will judge from Jerusalem, and all will see the face of God on the GWT wherever it is located since creation. Most Scripture indicates the sides of the north. So earth is on a level plain in a circle around the GWT, and all on earth will clearly see the face of God on the GWT.

Satan's virtual universe will all melt away, every last atom.

"in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,"

I guess we will miraculously stop living in a 14 billion year old universe, and the earth will immediately stop being a planet in the solar system, and become a flat earth once again like Genesis 1 declares, and the sun and moon will just be 2 lights again in the firmament, and all the stars in the firmament will turn into angels and all come to earth. Since you all don't accept that now, but deceived by Satan and his mythology.

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Timtofly · Aug 19, 2022

Rich R said:
The only scholarly support I have are in the verses themselves.

1 Thess 4:14-18,

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I see the word "rise" in verse 16. I don't see the word "resurrection" though. Personally, that is all the support I need for saying Christians will be raised and not resurrected.

There is another clue in verse 15 that is relevant and that is the truth that Christians are said to be asleep, not dead. Resurrections are for the dead. Risings are for those who sleep.

Non-trinitarian?

The Lord is God. Since you may not distinguish between Jesus and God. The God is sitting on the GWT, and God descends to the Mount of Olives both at the same time. In Paradise we are forever with God. But God is judging those on earth per Matthew 25:31, and not the God on the GWT.

Zechariah 14:4

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

God comes to the Mount of Olives and sits on a throne in Jerusalem during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. While also sitting on the GWT as always and all time. After the 1,000 years, God hands back creation to God.

Although as one who accepts 3 persons in one Lord, ie God, Jesus/the Word, and the Holy Spirit, it is Jesus who is both Christ and King, and as King sits in Jerusalem on His glorious throne as King at the Second Coming. While God is still sitting on the GWT, until Jesus hands back creation 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

Paradise is the home of the church until the New Jerusalem comes down. That is Abraham's city. The dead in Christ are already in Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They have been rising first for 1992 years. The OT redeemed left Abraham's bosom for Paradise at the Cross. Paradise is still the Garden of Eden somewhere, Paul's 3rd heaven.

The word Paradise only appears 3 times. But I am pretty sure the word heaven means the same thing, and not just a location outside of creation. We would have to be glorified or have space suits to enter the firmament where the angels are doing their task of beings lights in the sky.

Timtofly · Aug 19, 2022

Spiritual Israelite said:
And you completely disregard the very next verse after 1 Peter 5:8 as if 1 Peter 5:8 is the whole story. Ugh.

The next verse certainly does not say Satan is bound in the pit.

"Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world."

Randy Kluth · Aug 19, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
"The Jewish Hope"?

Your "National Israel" belief is a fairy tale Randy, found no place in scripture, only to be found in the Sci-Fi section of religious Zionism

The only hope for all of mankind is salvation through the finished work on Calvary, it's that simple

Why all the drama? It's a simple disagreement, and it's a perennial disagreement. Christians on both sides.

Randy Kluth · Aug 19, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Your the New kid on the block Randy, walking in the Zionist footsteps of John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield

Your new buzzword "The Jewish Hope" doesn't change the Zionist teaching, it's plain ole dual covenant theology in two peoples of God (Jew/Church), nothing new as you suggest

I'm certainly not a "new kid on the block." You're among a few disrespectful people on this forum. Watch out because it spreads "like gangrene." Just because someone is rude to you is no reason for you to become like him or her. We'll get along fine, disagreement or not, if we just exchange ideas without all of the "negativity."

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Spiritual Israelite said:
For crying out loud will you please start proving your claims already! You should know by now that I'm not going to just take your word for things like this. What evidence do you have to support this claim?

Scholarly research will bear out the truth of what I said. I already did it. It's not that difficult.

When Paul told the Bereans about the scriptures, they did the research to see if what he said was true or not. The key is that Paul spoke and the Bereans did the research. Paul already knew what he was talking about.

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Fact is, "All Scripture" was written to the men and women of faith, you Zionism in dispensationalism has you blinded to this biblical Fact as seen below

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Part of the doctrine in verse 16 requires that we know to whom God is speaking and when He spoke it. If we get that wrong we end up with wrong doctrine.

Lev 1:2,

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock.

Deut 1:1,

These [be] the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red [sea], between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.

Isa 1:1,

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Rom 11:13,

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Eph 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

If, as you say, the whole Bible is written to all men and women of faith, we need to get rid of these verses since they say certain parts were written to certain people.

I would guess there would be at least a few hundred more we would need to get rid of so the Bible would conform to your belief.

BTW, I'm not saying we get rid of those parts that aren't written specifically to us. We can certainly learn from the things God said to Israel, but we don't have to offer a morning and evening sacrifice. God told Israel to do that, not the church.

Rom 15:4,

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Do you have any verses that would contradict any of these verses?

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Your claim is outright dishonest to the scripture before your eyes!

"The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First"!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You can't possibly be reading what I write.

I said a rising is not a resurrection. That is absolutely true. Look up the two words in a Greek concordance.

Now you may not think it significant that God uses words in a precise way, but that does not change the fact that every word is incredibly significant. Each word was purified 7 times. God had a reason for everything He said, where He said it, to whom He said it, and when He said it. We need to respect the scriptures over tradition.

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Keraz said:
I posted 1 Corinthians 15:24, where we are told how Jesus will hand back the Kingdom and His authority to God the Father, at the end of the Millennium. I did quote this text and I have proved you wrong: God will be the Judge of everyone who has ever lived, as per Revelation 20:11-15.

I showed how the House of Israel is a separate entity from the House of Judah. Over 160 Bible verses confirm this continuing division.
Your difficulty in knowing this truth is understandable, as it is God's secret; how He has kept Judah intact as the visible entity of ancient Israel and how He has blessed and prospered the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes of true Israel; who are now the Christian peoples. As is perfectly evident in the Western nations.
They are still scattered but are prophesied to gather into all of the holy land soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed that entire area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

I do understand the difference between Israel and Judah. There is also a huge difference between them and the church.

Could you give me at least one of the 160 verses that say the church is the 10 Northern tribes?

I see where God created a new creature composed of both Jew and Gentile (Gal 3:28, Col 3:11), but it is just that, a new creation. It didn't exist until the day of Pentecost. That would be the church. But those verses in Galatians and Colossians don't say anything about the Northern tribes nor Judah.

I think you are really reading into this age what belongs to the next age, i.e. that described in Revelation.

On a side not, do you find it odd that Jesus would return the authority God gave him? Assuming Jesus is God, wouldn't that mean one part of God has more authority than the other part?

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Keraz said:
This belief is wrong.
There is no general resurrection until after the Millennium. Only the GT Martyrs are resurrected when Jesus Returns. Rev 20:4.
The 'raising' of the faithful people when Jesus Returns, as described in 1 Thess 4:17, is just a transportation, NOT a transformation. It is the gathering as Matthew 24:31 says, to where Jesus will be, that is Jerusalem. Proved by Zechariah 14:4

During the forthcoming 'wrath of the Lord', the Sixth seal worldwide disaster, we will all still be here to experience it. It will be our test of faith as 1 Peter 4:12 says. We must stand firm in our faith and trust in the Lord for His protection. Isaiah 42:2 and many other scriptures like; we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10

I'm sorry to keep saying it, but you are really confusing to whom and when God speaks. I exhort you to look into that. You don't have to believe me. There is tons of information out there about the different peoples and times in which God moved. He dealt with different people in different times and He did so in often radically different ways, the church being the most notable example.

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Timtofly said:
Non-trinitarian?

The Lord is God. Since you may not distinguish between Jesus and God. The God is sitting on the GWT, and God descends to the Mount of Olives both at the same time. In Paradise we are forever with God. But God is judging those on earth per Matthew 25:31, and not the God on the GWT.

Zechariah 14:4

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

God comes to the Mount of Olives and sits on a throne in Jerusalem during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. While also sitting on the GWT as always and all time. After the 1,000 years, God hands back creation to God.

Although as one who accepts 3 persons in one Lord, ie God, Jesus/the Word, and the Holy Spirit, it is Jesus who is both Christ and King, and as King sits in Jerusalem on His glorious throne as King at the Second Coming. While God is still sitting on the GWT, until Jesus hands back creation 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

Paradise is the home of the church until the New Jerusalem comes down. That is Abraham's city. The dead in Christ are already in Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They have been rising first for 1992 years. The OT redeemed left Abraham's bosom for Paradise at the Cross. Paradise is still the Garden of Eden somewhere, Paul's 3rd heaven.

The word Paradise only appears 3 times. But I am pretty sure the word heaven means the same thing, and not just a location outside of creation. We would have to be glorified or have space suits to enter the firmament where the angels are doing their task of beings lights in the sky.

Well, there is this;

John 5:27,

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

1 Cor 15:28,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Kind of weird that one part of God gave another part of God authority to execute judgment and then later one part of God is subject to another part.

All this shows is that in addition to mixing up peoples and times, most Christians also mix up the two main characters. No wonder the story is so mashed. It'd be like reading Moby Dick while thinking it took place last year in LA, and that Captain Ahab and the whale were the same person.

BTW, before you bring up John 1, please explain John 5:27 and 1 Cor 15:28. If you do that first, I'll be glad to address john 1. But for now, notice that the word "Jesus" is nowhere to be found in John 1:1 nor John 1:14. God uses the Greek word "logos" for the word most Christians read as "Jesus."

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Why all the drama? It's a simple disagreement, and it's a perennial disagreement. Christians on both sides.

No drama, just voicing my opinion

At no time have I questioned your eternal destiny or status regarding salvation

You teaching regarding "The Jewish Hope" for a "National Israel" is a fairy tale, found no place in scripture, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is found to be more credible "My Opinion"

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2022

Rich R said:
You can't possibly be reading what I write.

I said a rising is not a resurrection. That is absolutely true. Look up the two words in a Greek concordance.

Now you may not think it significant that God uses words in a precise way, but that does not change the fact that every word is incredibly significant. Each word was purified 7 times. God had a reason for everything He said, where He said it, to whom He said it, and when He said it. We need to respect the scriptures over tradition.

Rich it appears your clearly in denial of the "Resurrection" seen below in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, as the scripture below represents the same "Exact" event, Same Trump, same dead in Christ rising to immortality in incorruption

Pretty hard to believe you deny that the "Resurrection" is seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 below, shocking is a big understatement!

Will you now double down and claim 1 Corinthians 15:52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are two different trumps and different events of the dead rising or being raised?

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2022

Rich R said:
You can't get past the idea that the Gospels were written to and about Israel and not the Christian church?

How does the church being caught up into the air relate to the great white throne?

Are we caught up and then stand before standing in front of the throne? That wouldn't make any sense since Thessalonians tells us that after being caught up we will be with Jesus from that time on. I mean, if we're told we will be with Jesus forever, why would it then be said maybe we won't be with him, maybe we'll not be found in the book of life. It is the book of life that will determine who gets into paradise and who doesn't. Who is the "who?" Is it Jews, Gentiles, of the church?

Or are we caught up after standing at the throne? That doesn't make sense either. Why would we need to be judged if God already knows we'll be with Jesus forevermore?

Give this some honest consideration and I think you'll see that only Jews and Gentiles will be standing before the throne of judgement. Christians have a much different end, one that is light years ahead of that which Jews and Gentile face.

But if you do think we will all be part of the throne Jesus talked about in Matthew, I'd think you'd want to settle in our mind how that relates to Christians being caught up into the air to be with Jesus from that time on. You should come up with some logical explanation you can abide by. Maybe I'm wrong the way I see the difference and maybe you can come up with a better explanation. I'm all ears!

Your claim is "False"!

The scripture in the Gospel of Matthew below was written prophetically to the "Future Church" regarding events that would take place in the "Future" at the time of the end

Matthew 24:4-14KJV
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
I'm certainly not a "new kid on the block." You're among a few disrespectful people on this forum. Watch out because it spreads "like gangrene." Just because someone is rude to you is no reason for you to become like him or her. We'll get along fine, disagreement or not, if we just exchange ideas without all of the "negativity."

No disrespect whatsoever or being rude, just my opinion in truth

Your new buzzword "The Jewish Hope" in explanation of the same old package in dual covenant theology in two peoples of God

Randy you do nothing more than promote the same old Zionist teachings of John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield, it's that simple

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Rich it appears your clearly in denial of the "Resurrection" seen below in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, as the scripture below represents the same "Exact" event, Same Trump, same dead in Christ rising to immortality in incorruption

Pretty hard to believe you deny that the "Resurrection" is seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 below, shocking is a big understatement!

Will you now double down and claim 1 Corinthians 15:52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are two different events of the dead rising or being raised?

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I'm not sure what I said to make you think 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thes 4-16-17 are different events. But to set the record straight, I do understand them to be describing the same event.

However, I don't think that neither Thessalonians nor Corinthians are talking about either of the 2 resurrections in Revelation.

Both resurrections in Revelation occur AFTER Jesus comes to the earth and after Armageddon (Rev 20:4 & 20:13). But according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, we will meet Jesus in the air, some time BEFORE Jesus' feet actually touch the ground.

I don't think we are that far apart on this issue. A few details maybe, but not that bad.

Rich R · Aug 19, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Your claim is "False"!

The scripture in the Gospel of Matthew below was written prophetically to the "Future Church" regarding events that would take place in the "Future" at the time of the end

Matthew 24:4-14KJV
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Sorry, but the church was still hid in God when Jesus was here. The church was the mystery that wasn't know until God revealed it to Paul. The church officially began on the day of Pentecost, but it was some time before the significance of that event was totally understood. Acts is a transition between the OT and the NT.

You gotta stop reading other people's mail and acting on it.

Jesus addressed Israel, not the Gentiles, and the church wasn't even around when Jesus spoke those words in Matthew. He was describing the events in Revelation. The church has a completely different end than that of Israel, namely it will be gathered together with Jesus in the air before anything in Revelation occurs. Revelation is the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel about a real, land base, kingdom on earth. The same one God told Abraham and others to view with their eyes. Eyes don't see spirit.

22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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