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Nomad

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During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use...

Prove it. Post those canon lists and cite your sources. Demonstrate that there were conflicts with Josephus' assertions regarding the OT canon.

Once again, here is Josephus.

"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] *but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them."

Josephus, Against Apion, Book 1 Para. 8

*The 22 books of Josephus' list is equivalent to the 39 books of Protestant Bibles. The difference in enumeration is due to a difference in the 'grouping' of the various OT books.


They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures.

Wrong. According to the Mishnah they dealt with Ecclesiastes and maybe the Song of Songs only. See note 2 below.

"The theory that an open canon was closed at the Synod of Jamnia about 90 AD goes back to Heinrich Graetz in 1871, who proposed (rather more cautiously than has since been the custom) that the Synod of Jamnia led to the closing of the canon. Though others have lately expressed hesitations about the theory, its complete refutation has been the work of J.p. Lewis and S.Z. Leiman. The combined result of their investigations is as follows:

A. The term 'synod' or 'council' is inappropriate. The academy at Jamnia, established by Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai shortly before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, was both a college and a legislative body, and the occasion in question was a session of the elders there.

B. The date of the session may have been as early as 75 AD or as late as 117 AD.

C. As regard the disputed books, the discussion was confined to the question whether Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs (or possibly Ecclesiastes alone) make the hands unclean, i.e. are divinely inspired.

D. The decision reached was not regarded as authoritative, since contrary opinions continued to be expressed throughout the second century.

Roger Beckwith, The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church, ch. 7 p. 276

"The decision at Jamnia dealt only with Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs--or, according to Rabbi Akiba, with Ecclesiastes alone. See note #2. How, then, can it have decided the canonicity of books which, as far as we know, the assembly there did not even discuss?"

Roger Beckwith, The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church, ch. 7 p. 275

Note # 2

The record is as follows: 'Rabbi Simeon ben Azzai said, "I have heard a tradition derived from the 72 elders on the day that Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah was appointed head of the academy, that the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes make the hands unclean." Rabbi Akiba said, "God forbid! No man in Israel ever disputed, concerning the Song of Songs, that it does not make the hands unclean, for the whole world is not worth the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel; for all the Hagiographa are holy, but the Song of Songs is the holy of holies. If there was a dispute, it concerned Ecclesiastes only." Rabbi Johanan ben Joshua, the son of rabbi Akiba's father-in-law, said, "According to the words of Ben Azzai, so did they dispute, and so did they decide."'

Mishna Yadaim 3.5


Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church -- the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament.

Wrong. See above.


Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles and which were in the edition of the Bible that the apostles used in everyday life -- the Septuagint.

Jesus and the Apostles never quote from the apocrypha. Also, no one knows what was included in a first century LXX. The earliest extant copies are 4th and 5th century AD. None of them contain the same list of apocryphal books. For example: Codex Vaticanus does not contain Maccabees. Codex Sinaiticus contains 1 & 4 Maccabees. Codex Alexandrinus contains 1,2,3,4 Maccabees. Notice how Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus repectively contain 4th and 3rd and 4th Maccabees which were not accepted by Trent as canonical. Vaticanus doesn't contain Maccabees at all. The LXX provides you with absolutely no support with regard to what was canon and what was not.
 

epostle1

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Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
source
Jesus and the Apostles never quote from the apocrypha.

:lol: :D :p :D :lol: :p :lol: :D :p
 

Nomad

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Like I said, Jesus never quotes the apocrypha. A quote is a verbatim reproduction of a writing or saying. None on your references are quotes from the apocrypha. Not even close.

A friend of mine has already debunked many of these, so I'm going to reproduce his examination here with a link to his original blog post. I will examine the rest myself within the next few days.

We can see with the very first example the kind of dishonesty that goes into this supposed list of quotes. For example, Matt. 6:19-20 has absolutely nothing to do with Sirach 29:11. We have here two completely different topics.


http://turretinfan.b...-apocrypha.html

Let's examine the alleged evidence:

(1) "Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure."

This is probably the strongest example that we will see in the list. Moreover, there may be a similarity of expression in that "lay up" and "treasure" (and even "rust") are present, but in Sirach 29 the "treasure" is literal treasure, whereas in Matthew 6 there is a contrast between carnal and spiritual treasure. Compare:

Sirach 29:9-13
Help the poor for the commandment's sake, and turn him not away because of his poverty. Lose thy money for thy brother and thy friend, and let it not rust under a stone to be lost. Lay up thy treasure according to the commandments of the most High, and it shall bring thee more profit than gold. Shut up alms in thy storehouses: and it shall deliver thee from all affliction. It shall fight for thee against thine enemies better than a mighty shield and strong spear.

Versus:

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

It's neither a quotation nor a clear allusion.

Moreover, Sirach's comment about obedience to God's commandments being better than gold is itself derivable from the canonical Scriptures:

Psalm 19:7-11
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

And the command referenced in Sirach is found in the canonical Scriptures as well:

Deuteronomy 15:7-11
If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother: but thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth. Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee. Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto. For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Moreover, the principle expressed can be found in the canonical Scriptures as well:

Proverbs 10:2 Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.

(2) "Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – what you hate, do not do to others."

First, of course, this is definitely not a quotation, since, as dgor acknowledged, it is a sort of mirror image approach to the question.

Tobit 4:15 Do that to no man which thou hatest: drink not wine to make thee drunken: neither let drunkenness go with thee in thy journey.

Second, the source of Jesus' words is explained - it is a summary of the law and the prophets:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

(3) "Matt. 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – the fruit discloses the cultivation."

Again, this is not a quotation. Moreover, while it is a similar idea, it is not same idea.

Sirach 27:6 The fruit declareth if the tree have been dressed; so is the utterance of a conceit in the heart of man.

Versus:

Matthew 7:16-20
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Notice the difference. Jesus is not referring her to how the tree has been cultivated, but to what sort of plant it is. A more similar thought is found in the canonical Scriptures:

Isaiah 5:1-4
Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: and he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

(4) "Matt. 9:36 – the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 – sheep without a shepherd."

The shepherd-less sheep imagery isn't being quoted from Judith, and the imagery has multiple canonical examples:

Numbers 27:17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd.

1 Kings 22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.

2 Chronicles 18:16 Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.

By way of contrast:

Judith 11:19 And I will lead thee through the midst of Judea, until thou come before Jerusalem; and I will set thy throne in the midst thereof; and thou shalt drive them as sheep that have no shepherd, and a dog shall not so much as open his mouth at thee: for these things were told me according to my foreknowledge, and they were declared unto me, and I am sent to tell thee.

But the passage in Matthew states:

Matthew 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

And, of course, this is not Jesus speaking, much less quoting. And yet the most clear canonical reference is this:

Ezekiel 34:5-10 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; as I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

(5) "Matt. 11:25 – Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 – Lord of heaven and earth."

Like the "sheep with no shepherd" them, the theme of God being the Lord of heaven and earth is similarly a widespread theme.

Psalm 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalm 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Moreover, one not only finds this theme in Tobit 7:18:

Tobit 7:18 Be of good comfort, my daughter; the Lord of heaven and earth give thee joy for this thy sorrow: be of good comfort, my daughter.

But one also finds it in Judith 9:12:

Judith 9:12 I pray thee, I pray thee, O God of my father, and God of the inheritance of Israel, Lord of the heavens and earth, Creator of the waters, king of every creature, hear thou my prayer:

And in Matthew 11:25, it is clearly not a quotation of either of those passages of the Apocrypha:

Matthew 11:25-26 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

(6) "Matt. 12:42 – Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books."

No. He refers to the actual wisdom of Solomon, not the book given the name "the wisdom of Solomon."

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

The account of this can be found in the canonical Scriptures:

1 Kings 10:1-13
And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the LORD, she came to prove him with hard questions. And she came to Jerusalem with a very great train, with camels that bare spices, and very much gold, and precious stones: and when she was come to Solomon, she communed with him of all that was in her heart. And Solomon told her all her questions: there was not any thing hid from the king, which he told her not. And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the house that he had built, and the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her. And she said to the king, It was a true report that I heard in mine own land of thy acts and of thy wisdom. Howbeit I believed not the words, until I came, and mine eyes had seen it: and, behold, the half was not told me: thy wisdom and prosperity exceedeth the fame which I heard. Happy are thy men, happy are these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and that hear thy wisdom. Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice. And she gave the king an hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen of Sheba gave to king Solomon. And the navy also of Hiram, that brought gold from Ophir, brought in from Ophir great plenty of almug trees, and precious stones.
1Ki 10:12 And the king made of the almug trees pillars for the house of the LORD, and for the king's house, harps also and psalteries for singers: there came no such almug trees, nor were seen unto this day. And king Solomon gave unto the queen of Sheba all her desire, whatsoever she asked, beside that which Solomon gave her of his royal bounty. So she turned and went to her own country, she and her servants.

(7) "Matt. 16:18 – Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13."

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:18 does indeed use the expression the "gates of hell" which is the same as in the passage that dgor identified:

Wisdom 16:13 For thou hast power of life and death: thou leadest to the gates of hell, and bringest up again.

But the "power of ... death" is only in Wisdom 16. While I agree that the gates of hell actually refer to the same concept in both cases (the "gates of hell shall not prevail" refers to the resurrection, not the conquering of anti-Christian forces), it's amusing to observe how often the passage is used in the wrong way (especially by our Roman friends).

However, while the concept of "gates of hell" (meaning the power of death) may be the same, and while Jesus is making a similar claim to be able to raise the dead, still it seems a stretch to allege that Jesus is "quoting" from Wisdom 16:13 simply by using the same two-word phrase the same way.

(8) "Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers."

No. This is way off. First, here is the account (in each of the three versions).

Matthew 22:23-32
The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, "Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her." Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:18-27
Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, "Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife." And Jesus answering said unto them, "Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Luke 20:27-38
Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, saying, "Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife." And Jesus answering said unto them, "The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: but they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

Obviously, the reference to the seven husbands is not from Jesus at all, but from the Saducees. Moreover, it should be noted that the woman is not the same as the woman of Tobit 3:

Tobit 3:8 Because that she had been married to seven husbands, whom Asmodeus the evil spirit had killed, before they had lain with her. Dost thou not know, said they, that thou hast strangled thine husbands? thou hast had already seven husbands, neither wast thou named after any of them.

And interestingly, the woman of Tobit 7 (no need to decide if it is the same one, though it seems to be) was married to an eighth husband:

Tobit 7:9-14
So he communicated the matter with Raguel: and Raguel said to Tobias, Eat and drink, and make merry: for it is meet that thou shouldest marry my daughter: nevertheless I will declare unto thee the truth. I have given my daughter in marriage to seven men, who died that night they came in unto her: nevertheless for the present be merry. But Tobias said, I will eat nothing here, till we agree and swear one to another. Raguel said, Then take her from henceforth according to the manner, for thou art her cousin, and she is thine, and the merciful God give you good success in all things. Then he called his daughter Sara, and she came to her father, and he took her by the hand, and gave her to be wife to Tobias, saying, Behold, take her after the law of Moses, and lead her away to thy father. And he blessed them; and called Edna his wife, and took paper, and did write an instrument of covenants, and sealed it.

(9) "Matt. 24:15 – the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17."

No. It is taken from Daniel, and 1&2 Maccabees would contradict Jesus' words, if taken to refer to Daniel.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In fact, to the extent that 1&2 Maccabees aim to make reference to Daniel's account, they appear to contradict the words of the Lord:

1 Maccabees 1:54-55
Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side; and burnt incense at the doors of their houses, and in the streets.

2 Maccabees 8:16-18
So Maccabeus called his men together unto the number of six thousand, and exhorted them not to be stricken with terror of the enemy, nor to fear the great multitude of the heathen, who came wrongly against them; but to fight manfully, and to set before their eyes the injury that they had unjustly done to the holy place, and the cruel handling of the city, whereof they made a mockery, and also the taking away of the government of their forefathers: for they, said he, trust in their weapons and boldness; but our confidence is in the Almighty who at a beck can cast down both them that come against us, and also all the world.

(10) "Matt. 24:16 – let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28."

Again, no. Let's first examine the text:

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Then compare the section from the Apocrypha:

1 Maccabees 2:27-28 And Mattathias cried throughout the city with a loud voice, saying, Whosoever is zealous of the law, and maintaineth the covenant, let him follow me. So he and his sons fled into the mountains, and left all that ever they had in the city.

So, it is not a quote - simply advice to do something similar to what Mattathias did, without referencing Mattathias in any way.

If you're looking for an Old Testament reference, perhaps a better one would be:

Isaiah 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

At least in that case, there is mention of fleeing and a mountain top, and it is not simply descriptive of a past event.

But fleeing to the mountains was a pretty common theme:

Genesis 14:10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.

Psalm 11:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?

Song of Solomon 4:6 Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

(11) "Matt. 27:43 – if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18."

Again, these are unbelievers speaking, but let's examine whether they seem to be quoting from Wisdom:

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Wis 2:18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.

There is some similarity there. It's not a quotation, but it is somewhat close.

The words of the wicked here, however, actually were prophesied in the canonical scriptures:

Psalm 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

(12) "Mark 4:5,16-17 – Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15."

There is a similar simile used, but it is not the same simile nor is it given in the same words nor used to make the same point.

Sirach 40:15 The children of the ungodly shall not bring forth many branches: but are as unclean roots upon a hard rock.

Notice that in the example in Sirach, the simile relates to the physical offspring of wicked people. In contrast, the point in Mark 4 is about the nature of the faith of certain men.

Mark 4:2-20
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, "Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: and it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: but when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred." And he said unto them, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." And he said unto them, "Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

(13) "Mark 9:48 – description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17."

Judith 16:17 Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred! the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, in putting fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall feel them, and weep for ever.

A better, and canonical, comparison (and presumably the source for Judith's comments) would be this:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

-TurretinFan
 

epostle1

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Textual Criticism in the Writings of Francis Turretin

Jack Rogers and Donald McKim have argued in a similar vein about
Turretin. Specifically, they have argued that there is an inherent connection
between scholasticism, Aristotelianism, and rationalism characteristic of Turretin’s
thought that distinguishes it from the theology of the Reformation and
yields a discontinuity between Turretin’s thought and that of the Reformers.4​


Nomad, for a Calvinist, you should pay closer attention to what your own church teaches about Francis Turretin.

:lol: :D :p :D :p :lol: :p :D :lol: :p

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
source

Jesus and the Apostles never quote from the apocrypha.

:p :D :lol: :D :p :lol: :p :lol: :D
 

Axehead

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Like I said, Jesus never quotes the apocrypha. A quote is a verbatim reproduction of a writing or saying. None of your references are quotes from the apocrypha. Not even close.
Very good point, Nomad.
goodpostsmiley.gif
You're right. Jesus quoted OT passages.

None of Kepha's references are quotes and after looking some of them up he is really stretching it to associate NT verses together with Apocrypha writings.

A friend of mine has already debunked many of these, so I'm going to reproduce his examination here with a link to his original blog post. I will examine the rest myself within the next few days.

Thank you for hanging around and spending the time to debunk all of the sophistry that is being presented.
14387.gif


I really appreciate it and know others do, too.

14949.gif


Axehead
 

epostle1

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Follows, same as, converse of, references, taken from, reminds us, analogizes, similar to; there is no deception in the exegesis. Axehead and Nomad have no substance, just noisy gongs and clanging symbols.... not to mention crying because their blindness is so evident.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
 

Rex

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Follows, same as, converse of, references, taken from, reminds us, analogizes, similar to; there is no deception in the exegesis. Axehead and Nomad have no substance, just noisy gongs and clanging symbols.... not to mention crying because their blindness is so evident.

Say kepha where's your buddy aspen2?
Why is it I never see him admonishing you with his love and bubbles theology, but goes out of his way to build a
straw-man to remind me?

I don't see anything from Nomad or Axehead above that warrants your reply.
 

Nomad

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I have a little time, so let's take a look at another one of Kepha"s supposed Bible/apocrypha correlations.

Luk 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,
Luk 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!


Jud 13:18 Then Uzziah said to her: "Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies.

This is as bad as it gets. Mary is said to be blessed by Elizabeth because she is pregnant with the messiah. Simple enough. Judith, on the other hand, is said to be blessed because she just lopped off the head of an Assyrian general while he slept. Are you kidding me Kepha? Similar language does not necessarily equal a quote or an allusion. The subject matter of each verse couldn't be more different. This is not a quote. This isn't even an allusion. There's absolutely no correlation here whatsoever. This is ridiculous.

Here's the complete chapter of Judith 13.

1
When it grew late, his servants quickly withdrew. Bagoas closed the tent from the outside and excluded the attendants from their master's presence. They went off to their beds, for they were all tired from the prolonged banquet.​
2
Judith was left alone in the tent with Holofernes, who lay prostrate on his bed, for he was sodden with wine.​
3
She had ordered her maid to stand outside the bedroom and wait, as on the other days, for her to come out; she said she would be going out for her prayer. To Bagoas she had said this also.​
4
When all had departed, and no one, small or great, was left in the bedroom, Judith stood by Holofernes' bed and said within herself: "O Lord, God of all might, in this hour look graciously on my undertaking for the exaltation of Jerusalem;​
5
now is the time for aiding your heritage and for carrying out my design to shatter the enemies who have risen against us."​
6
She went to the bedpost near the head of Holofernes, and taking his sword from it,​
7
drew close to the bed, grasped the hair of his head, and said, "Strengthen me this day, O God of Israel!"​
8
Then with all her might she struck him twice in the neck and cut off his head.​
9
She rolled his body off the bed and took the canopy from its supports. Soon afterward, she came out and handed over the head of Holofernes to her maid,​
10
who put it into her food pouch; and the two went off together as they were accustomed to do for prayer. They passed through the camp, and skirting the ravine, reached Bethulia on the mountain. As they approached its gates,​
11
Judith shouted to the guards from a distance: "Open! Open the gate! God, our God, is with us. Once more he has made manifest his strength in Israel and his power against our enemies; he has done it this very day."​
12
When the citizens heard her voice, they quickly descended to their city gate and summoned the city elders.​
13
All the people, from the least to the greatest, hurriedly assembled, for her return seemed unbelievable. They opened the gate and welcomed the two women. They made a fire for light; and when they gathered around the two,​
14
Judith urged them with a loud voice: "Praise God, praise him! Praise God, who has not withdrawn his mercy from the house of Israel, but has shattered our enemies by my hand this very night."​
15
Then she took the head out of the pouch, showed it to them, and said: "Here is the head of Holofernes, general in charge of the Assyrian army, and here is the canopy under which he lay in his drunkenness. The Lord struck him down by the hand of a woman.​
16
As the Lord lives, who has protected me in the path I have followed, I swear that it was my face that seduced Holofernes to his ruin, and that he did not sin with me to my defilement or disgrace."​
17
All the people were greatly astonished. They bowed down and worshiped God, saying with one accord, "Blessed are you, our God, who today have brought to nought the enemies of your people."​
18
Then Uzziah said to her: "Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies.​
19
Your deed of hope will never be forgotten by those who tell of the might of God.​
20
May God make this redound to your everlasting honor, rewarding you with blessings, because you risked your life when your people were being oppressed, and you averted our disaster, walking uprightly before our God." And all the people answered, "Amen! Amen!"​

 

Axehead

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Follows, same as, converse of, references, taken from, reminds us, analogizes, similar to; there is no deception in the exegesis. Axehead and Nomad have no substance, just noisy gongs and clanging symbols.... not to mention crying because their blindness is so evident.

Kepha, I think you need a cheer to brighten your day?

th_cheeringsquad.gif



Here is an emo you can use next time you don't like what we write. It will save you some texting.

ecomcity.gif


Axe
 

epostle1

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Rex, You have a habit of jumping into the bottom of a thread without scrolling back to get the gist of the discussion. See post #43. The first 2 lines are completely unjustified. He then goes into a tirade that completely ignores "Follows, same as, converse of, references, taken from, reminds us, analogizes, similar to, etc., etc., but dismisses the couplets because they are not exact textual duplications. (even though some are) He is grabbing at straws like a drowning man because he has no case. What is hidden in the OT is revealed in the NT. Am I to think Nomad is unable to make any connection between the testaments?

There should be a rule about making reference to what someone says. If Aspen2 is building a straw man against you, (misrepresenting you) have the decency to use the quote feature or post the link to the thread as evidence; for all I know you are just slandering aspen2.

Rev. 1:4 the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

Sirach and 2 Maccabees some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 Paul says he thinks that he has the Spirit of God.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called Jamnia in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.
source
 

Rex

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but dismisses the couplets because they are not exact textual duplications. (even though some are)

It looks to me like you're the one straining at gnats and the swallowed camel is your attempt to alter or change the books of the bible.
The gnats = no evidence posted to support your statement (even though some are)
I don't see it Nomad doesn't see it but you do IMO simply because the catholic magistrate states it.

Your playing field of evidence has no bounds. You encourage others to embrace the idea of stepping out beyond what can be know threw scripture. In so much as long as men from your church say so by "The charism of infallibly". Don't you see the danger here? The sole authority you place your faith in is a man.

aspens straw-man post 124
http://www.christian...t/page__st__120
 

epostle1

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It's not the Magisterium, it's the work of John Salza, author of the web site, who is a reliable apologist. You, Axehead, and Nomad and most of Protestantism have bought the myth that there is no connection with the New Testament and the Deuterocanonicals (the proper term). What has been demonstrated is that there is a connection. Jesus and the Apostles refereed to them and you reject the glaring evidence that this Protestant myth IS WRONG. The Bereans used them as scripture for 200 years before Christ, as did most Jews.

The deuterocanonicals teach Catholic doctrine, and for this reason they were taken out of the Old Testament by Martin Luther and placed in an appendix without page numbers. Luther also took out four New Testament books—Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation—and put them in an appendix without page numbers as well. These were later put back into the New Testament by other Protestants, but the seven books of the Old Testament were left out. Following Luther they had been left in an appendix to the Old Testament, and eventually the appendix itself was dropped (in 1827 by the British and Foreign Bible Society), which is why these books are not found at all in most contemporary Protestant Bibles, though they were appendicized in classic Protestant translations such as the King James Version.​

Your skinnier bible is still the word of God. It just isn't complete. If you don't believe the Deutero's are inspired, that's your business. But to deny the historical importance of those books is just that...denial.​

If you choose to follow the opinions of a mad man who nearly threw out 4 New Testament books as an OT authority, you go right ahead. If you deny the authority of the Catholic Church that canonized the New Testament at the same time all 46 books of the OT were canonized, then you are not making sense. So Protestants make up lies about Trent or say Jesus and the Apostles never used them or the early Christians never used them as Scripture. Anything to cover up Luther's mistakes.

The reason the thread veered from sola scriptura to the Deutero's is because sola scriptura is such a pathetic, unbiblical unworkable, man made tradition, its easy to refute. It has no defense.

"'Be just in your judgement' [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. 'Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving'
[Sirach 4:31]." Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).
 

Nomad

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The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called Jamnia in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.
source

We've already been through this more than once. I provided evidence that demonstrates very clearly that the gathering at Jamnia examined Ecclesiastes and maybe Song of Songs only. No changes to the OT canon were attempted or pursued. As far as Paul was concerned, the Jews of his day were still the custodians of the OT. Paul also said that the unfaithfulness of some did not make void the faithfulness of God. They rejected Christ, but that doesn't change the fact that they were used of God until He decided to disperse them in 70 AD. The Jews became apostate, but that did not give the Church the right to monkey with the canon that God had given them.

Also, there's no evidence that the gathering at Jamnia looked at the apocrypha or the NT writings. You merely make baseless assertions. As far as Judaism was concerned at that time, the Christians were apostates and heretics. What makes you think that they would consider the NT writings? It never happened.

In any case, I'm going to continue demonstrating how completely vacuous your supposed Bible/apocrypha correlations really are. It's not hard to do. Anyone coming to these texts without an axe to grind will never see the nonsense that Roman Catholics see.
 

Axehead

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It looks to me like you're the one straining at gnats and the swallowed camel is your attempt to alter or change the books of the bible.
The gnats = no evidence posted to support your statement (even though some are)
I don't see it Nomad doesn't see it but you do IMO simply because the catholic magistrate states it.

Your playing field of evidence has no bounds. You encourage others to embrace the idea of stepping out beyond what can be know threw scripture. In so much as long as men from your church say so by "The charism of infallibly". Don't you see the danger here? The sole authority you place your faith in is a man.

aspens straw-man post 124
http://www.christian...t/page__st__120

Rex,

That is a great statement which sums up the RCC very well.

"Your playing field of evidence has no bounds. You encourage others to embrace the idea of stepping out beyond what can be know through scripture. In so much as long as men from your church say so by "The charism of infallibility". Don't you see the danger here? The sole authority you place your faith in is a man."

They don't see it as man that they are placing their faith in but it is very obvious to everyone else. Take away all of the props, the traditions, the Catholic Canon the Catechism, the Ex Cathedra speaking of their leaders and just go by the Word of God and then they would see things very clearly. But they cannot see clearly because these other things obscure the Word of God.

Not only does their playing field have no bounds but their dogma is a patchwork quilt that is added to year after year thought they say they never change or ever have to correct anything (because it was infallibly stated).

These 50 priests and 20 Nuns did just that (took away all of the props) and lo and behold, there was Jesus Christ as they had never saw Him, before. I own these two books and have read them and their testimonies are very Christ-centered testimonies seasoned with grace.

Twenty-Nuns.jpg


Testimonies of 50 Converted Catholic Priests
FarFromROME1.jpg


Axehead
 

epostle1

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You can obfuscate and bellyache about Javnia all day.

During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use, including the growing canon used by Christians. In order to combat the spreading Christian cult, rabbis met at the city of Jamnia or Javneh in A.D. 90 to determine which books were truly the Word of God. They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures. This canon also excluded seven books (Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel) that Christians considered part of the Old Testament.

The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

Needless to say, the Church disregarded the results of Javneh.
  • First, a Jewish council after the time of Christ is not binding on the followers of Christ.
  • Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church—the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament.
  • Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles and which were in the edition of the Bible that the apostles used in everyday life—the Septuagint.
source


For more than 100 years, the Apocrypha has been left out of English versions of the Bible. Concordia Publishing House is proud to announce the 2012 release of the first and only ESV edition of the Apocrypha with notes and annotations by Lutherans.​

Described by Martin Luther as useful texts to read, but not divinely inspired, the Apocrypha allows Lutherans to look back at their heritage and see the Bible as our forefathers would have. Furthermore, the texts of the Apocrypha are essential reading for filling in the 400-year gap between the Old and New Testaments.​

wikipedia Council of Jamnia




Reply Concerning the Canonicity of the So-Called "Apocrypha" (vs. Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon)

Possible References to the Deuterocanon (aka "Apocrypha") in the New Testament (RSV) (+ Parts Two | Three| Four| Five | Six | Seven | Eight| Nine)

Reply to C. Michael Patton on Sola Scriptura, Part Five (The Canon


Go ahead and "continue demonstrating...". Make my day.
 

Nomad

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During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture.

Documentation please. No more baseless assertions.

"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] *but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them."

Josephus, Against Apion, Book 1 Para. 8


In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use...

Documentation + competing canon lists please. No more baseless assertions.

"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] *but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them."

Josephus, Against Apion, Book 1 Para. 8

In order to combat the spreading Christian cult, rabbis met at the city of Jamnia or Javneh in A.D. 90 to determine which books were truly the Word of God.

Documentation please. No more baseless assertions.

The record is as follows: 'Rabbi Simeon ben Azzai said, "I have heard a tradition derived from the 72 elders on the day that Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah was appointed head of the academy, that the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes make the hands unclean." Rabbi Akiba said, "God forbid! No man in Israel ever disputed, concerning the Song of Songs, that it does not make the hands unclean, for the whole world is not worth the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel; for all the Hagiographa are holy, but the Song of Songs is the holy of holies. If there was a dispute, it concerned Ecclesiastes only." Rabbi Johanan ben Joshua, the son of rabbi Akiba's father-in-law, said, "According to the words of Ben Azzai, so did they dispute, and so did they decide."'

Mishna Yadaim 3.5


They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures.

Documentation please. No more baseless assertions.

The record is as follows: 'Rabbi Simeon ben Azzai said, "I have heard a tradition derived from the 72 elders on the day that Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah was appointed head of the academy, that the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes make the hands unclean." Rabbi Akiba said, "God forbid! No man in Israel ever disputed, concerning the Song of Songs, that it does not make the hands unclean, for the whole world is not worth the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel; for all the Hagiographa are holy, but the Song of Songs is the holy of holies. If there was a dispute, it concerned Ecclesiastes only." Rabbi Johanan ben Joshua, the son of rabbi Akiba's father-in-law, said, "According to the words of Ben Azzai, so did they dispute, and so did they decide."'

Mishna Yadaim 3.5