Questions for Sabbatarians
- Thread starter Big Boy Johnson
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GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Well, it was a little bit my fault that we got into that heated conversation, because I had said "I haven't met a 'Torah Observant' Christian who isn't a complete fool" after having quoted Proverbs 18:13, assuming people would read it (I should've written the verse out, to help people understand what I was saying--Pr 18:13 says "He who answers a matter before hearing it, it is his folly and shame", so I was saying that the "Torah Observant" don't even read and answer challenges), and, on top of that, there was a misunderstanding that I was referring to 7th Day Adventists, when, in reality, I haven't had much experience having trouble with SDA, I was referring to other groups, like Black Hebrew Israelites, but that the user I was speaking with (may have been SDA, not 100% sure) was reminding me of those guys.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
@Big Boy Johnson I know how they're going to observe 7th Day Sabbath without the light of the Sun--flashlights!
That's it, I'm going home. I've been debunked. The fate worse than death.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Yeah, If I were you I'd scale back too
I was afraid you might really like that. I may have to reconsider.
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I'm not concerned one way or the other as it's a free country and folks have a right to say their piece even if they can't understand why others don't immediately snap to and agree with them.
Besides, it's not like the Saturday Sabbath was a commandment given to those other than the children of Israel....
Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations
Exodus 16:27-30
And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested on the seventh day.
Leviticus 23:2,3
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I don't feel that way so I wouldn't know anything about it.
THE SABBATH—SIGN OF SALVATION.
"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" (Heb. 4:9-11).
It took a Creator to bring about creation, and it took the same Creator to bring about redemption (Col. 1:14-16; Heb. 1:2, 3). As the Lord celebrated His finished work of Creation by setting apart the Sabbath and making it holy, so He celebrates His work of redemption for us by making the same Sabbath a sign of that redemption.
This is the link between the weekly Sabbath and righteousness by faith. Just as Creation was a work that was done for us, salvation is the same. It is what God does for us; it can never be what we do for ourselves. The Sabbath helps show the source of our righteousness to be God, nothing else, and certainly not our works. The Sabbath also reminds us that just as we have not created ourselves, we cannot redeem ourselves.
What does Hebrews 4 mean when it talks about us ceasing from our works? Does a person who accepts Christ stop doing good works? (See Eph. 2:10; Matt. 5:16; 1 Tim. 6:18; 2 Tim. 3:17; Titus 2:7; Heb. 10:24.) Or does it mean ceasing from seeking salvation from our works? What does a person saved by faith rest from, if not good works? To all who receive the Sabbath as a sign of Christ's creative and redeeming power, it will be a delight. Seeing Christ in it, they delight themselves in Him. The Sabbath points them to the works of creation as evidence of His mighty power in redemption. While it calls to mind the lost peace of Eden, it tells of peace restored through the Saviour.
THE SABBATH—THE SIGN OF SANCTIFICATION.
Read Exodus 20:8, along with Leviticus 20:7 and 1 Peter 1:15, 16. What do these verses have in common?
God tells us to keep the Sabbath holy (Exod. 20:8). But in order to do that, we ourselves must be holy. How can people, themselves unholy, keep a day holy? They can't.
Thus, it's clear: God calls us to holiness. Both the Old and the New Testament testify to this sacred call. Peter even refers to the New Testament church as a holy nation: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" (1 Pet. 2:9).
That holiness, however, is something that only God can do in us. We need to learn how to cooperate with the Lord in order that He can make us into the kind of people who can indeed keep His Sabbath holy. And the Sabbath is a sign of that holiness.
"Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you" (Exod. 31:13; see also Ezek. 20:12). What do these verses reveal about the link between the Sabbath and sanctification?
The word in both these texts for "sanctify" comes from the same Hebrew word as "holy." They could have just as easily been translated "that you may know that I am the Lord who makes you holy." The Sabbath, therefore, isn't just a sign of justification, of the work that God has done for us; it also symbolizes what He wants to do in us, also known as sanctification. Because the whole plan of redemption involves restoration, the Sabbath, a symbol of the Creation and re-creation, symbolizes God's creative power working in us, restoring us to what God wants us to be. Look at 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Galatians 6:15. That work, of course, will be completed only at the Second Coming, but the process, that of our sanctification, is going on even now.
Though we certainly can no more sanctify ourselves on our own than we can justify ourselves, we can cooperate with the Lord, who alone can make us holy. In what ways does keeping the Sabbath help us cooperate in that process? Look at your own Sabbath-keeping experience, and ask yourself if, in fact, you are really keeping the day "holy" as commanded.
THE SABBATH—THE SIGN OF LOYALTY (Rev. 14:1-12).
The book of Revelation teaches that the Sabbath commandment will play a special role in last day events. It will be, in a sense, a "test" of our loyalty to God. Yet that won't be the first time the Sabbath has been a test.
Look again at Exodus 16, the story of the manna and the Sabbath. What verse in particular shows that loyalty to God was tested by a willingness to obey the Sabbath commandment?
Read carefully the first angel's message (Rev. 14:6, 7). The call to worship "him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" introduces a clear link to the Sabbath commandment, even if the language isn't exactly as in Exodus 20 (Revelation never directly quotes the Old Testament). What makes this link even more crucial is that the dividing issue in the last days will center on worship: People will worship either the One " 'who made the heavens, [and] the earth'" (Rev. 14:7, NIV) or they will worship the "image of the . . . beast" (Rev. 13:15, KJV). And because we want to worship only our Creator, and because the Sabbath was instituted to remind us of that Creator, it's not unreasonable that the Sabbath will play a big role in the climax of earth's history.
The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false Sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator.
Read carefully through the three angels' messages in Revelation 14:1-12. What verse in particular also adds biblical proof to belief in the perpetuity of the Sabbath?
Psalm 92 is a song for the Sabbath day. Why is this an appropriate song for the Sabbath? Where in the psalm do you find a link between Creation and God's redemption?
By communing with God, we actually partake of His holiness. Thus because its hours are filled with intimate fellowship between man and God, the Sabbath becomes the sign, the epitome, of the entire life of sanctification. God has placed a glorious opportunity and privilege before us. In a special way on Sabbath we may put aside our daily work and participate in deep personal communion with the Holy One of Israel, and in that intimate relationship become changed more and more into His likeness.
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Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, BB.
Actually, there's no question that we are under a New Covenant. However, you should remember that the New Covenant, about which Jeremiah writes, was TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, not primarily to Gentiles except how they fit into the children of Israel!
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)
31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I WILL PUT MY LAW in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
"'Know the LORD':
"for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I WILL FORGIVE THEIR INIQUITY, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE."
That you don't know this worries me.
Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said,
Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. 18 For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT (the Hebrew letter "yod" י ) OR ONE TITTLE (the "thorn" that distinguishes the "dalet" ד from the "reish" ר ) SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
NO! Only the covenant, not GOD'S LAW! Hebrews 7 is talking about an AMENDMENT to the commandment for making a child of Levi a priest!
Hebrews 7:1-28 (KJV)
1 For this Melchisedec (Hebrew: מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק Malkhiy-Tsedeq = "My-King - of-Righteousness"), king of Salem (Hebrew: שָׁלֵם Shaaleem = "of-Peace"), priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation "King of righteousness," and after that also "King of Salem," which is, "King of peace"; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. 7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. 8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he [receiveth them], of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. 9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law (i.e., with regard to the order of Aharown). 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, "Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." (Psalm 110:4) 18 For there is verily a disannulling (Greek: atheteesis ἀθέτησις = the negation of "to set, fix, or establish") of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect (Greek: eteleioosen ἐτελείωσεν = "made-it-mature"), but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which [through the One whom] we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath [he was made priest]: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, "The Lord sware and will not repent, 'Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec'"
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament (covenant). 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens (Greek: hupseeloteros toon ouranoon ὑψηλότερος τῶν οὐρανῶν = "higher-than the skies"; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.So, the point is this: The LAW itself was not abolished; it was IMPROVED by the unseating of a commandment, superceding it with the High Priest who was "made a PLEDGE (Greek: egguos ἔγγυος translated "a surety") of a better covenant!" You absolutely need to understand that the LAW is not altered; the commandment for a high priest was ALTERED AND IMPROVED because the COVENANT was changed!
We see in the New Testament the gentiles are grafted in and God created one new man
I'm not worried that you did not know the gentiles would be grafted in and the Lord is making one new man... God promised to Abraham that ALL nations would be blessed thru him... not just Israel
Amazing! Did you choose to NOT believe Hebrews 7:12 ???
It specifically says... the law was changed... and that would be the Law of Moses is out, and the Law of Christ is now in.
Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
You need to accept the whole counsel of God rather than... bits and pieces
If you want to continue living under the Law of Moses... go right ahead.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Can't be the same law.
Verses 16-18 of Hebrews 7 says the law that is being changed is carnal/fleshly, weak, and unprofitable:
Heb 7:16-18
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
But Romans 7 says that the law is spiritual, holy, just and good.
Rom 7:12-14
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Verse 14 even directly contrasts "spiritual" with "carnal," thoroughly impeaching the theory that Hebrews 7 is talking about the moral law being changed.
Are we really supposed to believe that "carnal" = "spiritual" and that "weak and unprofitable" = "holy, just, and good?"
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Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Big Boy Johnson.
Correct; however, into WHAT are we "graffed?" Some say "the church" or even "the Church" (which suggests a universal entity), but that in itself is a problem. See, the word "church" comes from "kuriokon" which means "of the Lord." The biblical word in the Greek of the NT, is "ekkleesia" (I use "e" for an epsilon and "ee" for an eta). That word means "a called-out [assembly]" and has been used of the town meeting in Ephesus as well as the children of Israel in the wilderness. Together, "ekkeesia kuriokon" means "a called-out [assembly] of the Lord," referring to the Lord Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus"), the Messiah ("Christ") of God. But, today, it mostly consists of non-Israelis who have forgotten their Jewish roots.
What distinguished the early believers from the non-believers was not whether they were Jew or Gentile, but whether they accepted that Yeeshuwa` was the Messiah of God promised to Israel through all the prophets and the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (2 Sam. 7 and 1 Chron. 17). The Kingdom of God, that is, God's Kingdom, has ALWAYS been the Kingdom He formed from the children of Israel after taking them out of Egypt. Gentiles were always allowed into that Kingdom as they accepted YHWH God as their ONLY God, and as they were brought into the fellowship of the children of Israel, under the rules established through God's Law.
So, yes, we are graffed into the ROOT of the Olive Tree, the Shoresh ha'Ets haZeitiym, and the ROOT of David, "Shoresh Daviyd," is the One from whom David sprang, the One who is also called "Shiloh," the One who will be at ease, successful, and prosperous ultimately.
But did you know that the "one new man" is ISRAEL through the Messiah? Israel as it should have been? The Israel over which David ruled?
Look carefully at the passage in Romans 11:
Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)
11 I say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their (temporary) fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh (the children of Israel), and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, WHAT [SHALL] THE RECEIVING [OF THEM BE], BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD (RESURRECTION)? 16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 BOAST NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,
"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."
20 Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [TAKE HEED] LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:
on them which fell, severity;
but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off!
23 And they also, if THEY abide not still in unbelief, SHALL BE GRAFFED IN: for God is able to graff them in AGAIN.
24 For if THOU (ROMAN GENTILE) WERT CUT OUT OF THE OLIVE TREE WHICH IS WILD BY NATURE, and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree: how much more shall THESE (CHILDREN OF ISRAEL), WHICH BE THE NATURAL [BRANCHES], be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written,
"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes!
29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. (God doesn't renege on His gifts or calling.) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Didn't need to. Just look at the context and CHECK THE GREEK!
Not living under; fulfilled upon the Law of Mosheh!
Obviously... the Body of Christ.
It's curious that you're not mentioning... the Body of Christ.
Lot's of scriptures in the NT speak about Christians being IN Christ.
You sound like you've been too caught in the whole Hebrew roots stuff which is a cover for living under the Law of Moses and be torah observing which is a rejection of the New Covenant.
While the Bible does not directly state that someone observed the Sabbath prior to Sinai, there are many examples of God's law being followed prior to Sinai without being told when God first gave it. For example in Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, which implies that he already knew what sin is and must have already been given God's law, so the fact that it is not recorded when God gave him His law does not mean that he didn't keep the Sabbath, especially with it being talked about in Genesis 2:2-3. What is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.
It is speaking about not going out to gather manna.
No one knows when the year of Jubilee is plus it is specific to being in the land.
The command does not prohibit fires that were lit before the start of the Sabbath.
Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, so it would be unlawful to enforce a penalty that he has already paid. It still has the same penalty, but Jesus has paid it for us in our place. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142), so none of them will ever be abolished. Furthermore, instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be abolished without first abolishing God.
Everything commanded in the Mosaic Law is an example of how to correctly love God and our neighbor, including keeping the Sabbath holy, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the others hang on them.
Jesus was not giving an exhaustive list of which laws we are required to follow.
Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believer or it does not, so it is contradictory to treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow such as the greatest two commandments while also treating it as being an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. Furthermore, if you grant that Gentiles should obey the greatest two commandments, then you also grant that Gentiles should obey the commandments that hang on them. In Acts 15:19-21, they were giving an exhaustive list for mature Gentile believers, but rather they were giving a list intended to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues, which means that they were expecting Christians to be keeping the Sabbath.
Jesus was sinless, which means that he never broke the Mosaic Law, which included never breaking the Sabbath and to claim that he broke it is to claim that he sinned and therefore to deny that he is our Savior. While God commanded priests to rest on the Sabbath, He also commanded priests to make offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why he defended his disciples as being innocent. Some Pharisees thought that it was unlawful to work on the Sabbath and that healing is work, therefore it is unlawful to heal on the Sabbath, however, no command was intended to be understood as preventing the greatest two commandments from being obeyed, which is why Jesus ruled that is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Jesus did not do that.
Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect purposes, but he was a servant of God, so he did not speak against becoming circumcised for the purposes for which God commanded it. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose, which should not be mistake as being a ruling against becoming circumcised for the purposes for which God commanded it as if they had the authority to countermand God.
It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so every time they taught to repent from our sins they were teaching to obey the Mosaic Law.
In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Moreover, Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim. So it is a ministration of life for those who obey it and the fact that it is a ministration of death for those who refuse to obey it is not a very good reason to refuse to obey it. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the Mosaic Law, but rather our faith uphold it, yet you seek to abolish it rather than uphold it.
The command to keep the 7th day holy does not prohibit meeting on other days on the week. In Acts 2:46, they broke bread together on every day.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which includes repenting from breaking the Sabbath.
The Israelites received a double portion of manna for the 7th day for 40 years in the wilderness, so they knew on which day God rested, they have been keeping it ever since, and the period of time that they have been keeping as the 7th day corresponds to the Gregorian calendar as between Friday and Saturday at sundown. Yes, all men can keep the same day.
There has been various ruling, such someone keeping the Sabbath based on the time that they came from or the time that it is the Sabbath in Israel.
Indeed. I do not spend time on forums on the Sabbath. However, even if I were not keeping the Sabbath holy, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that followers of God should follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.
Nuff said...
WHO eats... manna these days?
The grocery store I shop at doesn't even carry no manna
Yeah, but putting fire wood on the fire and tending to the fire... is work.
Well, good luck keeping all the law... if you miss one point, you are guilty of all and Jesus is of no effect to those trying to live by the law as we see in Galatians.
But, Jesus never mentions Saturday sabbath... He never taught anybody to keep Saturday sabbath and He never corrects anybody for not keeping Saturday sabbath
This is an argument from silence as your SDA religious biddies like to say.
They did decide on what things Christians are expected to follow... and Saturday sabbath wasn't one of them.
Maybe they had a busy day and just forgot... and the Lord forgot to put it in His Word as He never taught anybody to keep Saturday sabbath and He never corrects anybody for not keeping Saturday sabbath
Actually, Saturday sabbath is not a part of the New Covenant so Jesus was free to work on Saturday
So in your view those that are not circumcised... are not born again and are going to hell?
You are ignorant of the New Covenant... which teaches we are under the Law of Christ now, not the Law of Moses.
Hope that gets better for you and soon!
So you believe in living under the Law of Moses and keeping that law earns your salvation?
There is no command under the New Covenant to keep Saturday sabbath
One cannot get to Heaven by... keeping the Law of Moses.
If they could, Jesus would have never had to go to the Cross.
Sounds like your not too committed to it...
There can be no good reason to doubt that something happened even if it is not directly stated that it happened.
That's the point.
Indeed, though the fire could be left burning. There are ways of staying warm that do not require a fire.
In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, he was not telling them to have good luck keeping all of the law, and he was not trying to discourage them from trying to keep it, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to obey God's law more consistently.
Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, including setting an example of keeping the Sabbath holy, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way walked (1 John 2:6). Christ said nothing about being in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow or about editing the law down to just what would eventually be recorded that he repeated, but rather he equated his commands with those of the Father (John 15:10) and he Sid that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 14:24). The vast majority of the people that Jesus interacted with were Jews who kept the Sabbath holy, so there would not have been a pressing need for him to have gone around commanding people to do that or to correct people for not doing that, though he did speak about how to correctly keep the Sabbath holy through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is not safe to assume that he wasn't in favor of following the parts of God's word that he didn't specifically mention.
Please directly state whether or not it is your position that Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of mature Gentile believers. If you think that it contains an exhaustive list, then that would mean that it is your position that Gentiles are free to disobey the rest of the Ten Commandments, the greatest two commandments, the laws against things like committing kidnapping and favoritism, and are free to do the things listed in verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, and Titus 3:1-3. If it is not your position that it contains an exhaustive list, then stop acting like the fact that a law wasn't mentioned in that list means that Gentiles aren't required to follow it. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to follow the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so Acts 15 should not be interpreted as essentially ruling that follower of Christ shouldn't be expected to follow Christ, and if you do think that that is what they were ruling, then you should think that we should follow Christ instead of them.
Jesus did not establish the New Covenant until the end of his ministry, which means that everything that he taught prior to that point was in regard to how to live under the Mosaic Covenant. Moreover, he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), which includes the command to keep the Sabbath holy.
I didn't say that.
The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), so there is no disagreement. The Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so I don't see a good reason to think that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught. In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul used a parallel statement to equate not being outside the Law of God with being under the Law of Christ, so again it is the same.
No, Deuteronomy 30 is essentially the New Covenant and has nothing to do with earning our salvation. While there are many verses like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against earning our salvation as the result of our obedience to God's law, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 that affirm that our salvation requires us to be an obeyer of it, so there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to be an obeyer of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be an obeyer of it, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). Again, Romans 10:5-8 references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim.
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, having the experience of being an obeyer of it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us from having the experience of not being an obeyer of it. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result, and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to having the experience of doing those works is the content of His gift of saving us from not having that experience.
See Jeremiah 31:33.
The Law of Moses is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to think that we have faith in Jesus, but not in God's word. In Psalms 40:8, the Father has made His will known through the Mosaic Law, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), not an alternative way to heaven.
No, I was making the point that what I happen to be doing is independent of the issue of whether followers of God should follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
There's never been any other kind of Sabbath that He would have been referring to when He spoke of it—no less than 19 times in the Gospel accounts.
If He didn't intend for them to keep it, it would be absurd for Him to spend so much time instructing them about how to properly keep it.
Which is not always a bad idea, especially when it is used to determine what is the best way to obey God rather than finding out how to avoid obedience.
No, they decided on certain, specific issues that were controversial.
This theory makes either you or Christ a liar. There's no third possibility.
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)
And Christ was not under the New Covenant—unless He died and was resurrected at His birth in Bethlehem.
It was ratified at His death.
Hebrews 9
15And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Have you ever considered actually reading the Book of Hebrews?
Straw/Polyester/Naugahyde Man argument
Perhaps not in a single, directly stated sentence as you seem bold enough to require from the Sovereign of the universe, but it is plain enough for those who aren't steeled in rebellion.
(This doesn't apply to anyone who isn't convicted that it fits.)
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)
I and My Father are one. (John 10:30)
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (1 Corinthians 7:19)
And every time we sin, we add to what He suffered there.
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Wow, so you believe just about anything then right?
It makes sense that you say this since... NOWHERE in the New Testament does the Lord instruct Christians to observe Saturday sabbath so your argument that He does is an argument from silence seeing the Lord never teaches this.
It's all starting to make since now... when you say "There can be no good reason to doubt that something happened even if it is not directly stated that it happened"
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Yeah, if you'd call this silence:
For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:8)
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” (Matthew 4:4)
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)
I and My Father are one. (John 10:30)
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (1 Corinthians 7:19)
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No.
No. In Genesis 4:7, God told Cain told that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, so we can infer that God had already instructed His law to him even though it is not recorded when God did that. For example, it is not recorded that God commanded Him to refrain from committing murder, but I see no reason to doubt that he was. My argument does not rest on needing to quote a direct command from God to Adam and Eve to keep the Sabbath holy, and even if they did not not keep it holy, it wouldn't mean that we should not. Again, what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.
Again, in Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which included repenting from breaking the Sabbath. Likewise, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, including setting an example of keeping the Sabbath holy, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, which includes keeping the Sabbath holy, and the fact that we don't have it recored where he did not specifically give a direct command to keep it holy does not give any reason to think that it was excluded from what he taught. Jesus didn't say anything specifically against offering children of Molech, but that doesn't mean that we should conclude that he was in disagreement with the Father about whether we should refrain from doing that.
There is NO call to action... given in the New Covenant instructing Christians to observe Saturday sabbath
There ARE calls to action concerning other teachings that Christians are instructed in God's Word to follow and observe... so if Saturday sabbath was a thing for Christians there would be a call to action in the New Covenant for this... and there is not.
Not to mention there are NO corrections or warnings given to Christians in the New Covenant telling us not observing Saturday sabbath is a sin or would result in not being righteous with the Lord.
So, the SDA has nothing but speculation seeing their pet doctrine has NO call to action in the New Covenant.
This is adding to God's Word something He does not instruct Christians to do.
Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.
1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos
for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so
that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.
The SDA peoples do think of themselves as being more righteous because they observe Saturday sabbath...
In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, which includes the command to keep the Sabbath holy. Likewise, the NT calls for us to repent from our sin and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), which again includes repenting from breaking the Sabbath. Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow and said nothing along the lines that we should only follow the commands that he repeated, so have no grounds to assume that we should only follow the commands that were specifically repeated. God's word commands to keep the Sabbath holy (Exodus 20:8-11), so I am not adding to God's word, but rather I am saying that we should obey it.
In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which straightforwardly includes keeping His Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). Furthermore, in 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles as included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which as terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to follow God's instructions for how to fulfill those roles. It is contradictory for a Gentile to want to become part of a holy nation while not wanting to follow God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.
In Acts 15:21, the expectation was that Gentiles would be continuing to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.
In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by pagans who were promoting human teaching and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them for obeying God.
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