The Olivet Discourse

Stranger said:

In other words, you have nothing to offer against what I have said.

Stranger

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I did, you just refuse to recognize it. Here it is again:

Matt.23 - Jesus speaking to unbelievers of the Jews

Matt.24 - Jesus speaking to His Church

You cannot equate Jesus' disciples with the unbelieving Jews. Jesus chose His Apostles to be the foundation of His Church under The New Testament, not the old, and that regardless that Jesus had yet to be crucified. You should never confuse the unbelievers of the Jews that wanted to kill Jesus with Christ's own Apostles and disciples who believed on Him.

Davy said:

The scribes of Israel were mostly foreigners that became... religious Jews:

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

The Kenites were a people from the lands of Canaan:

Gen 15:19-21
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV

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( 2 Samuel 4:2) identifies Rechab of the children of Benjamin. ( 1 Chron. 2:50-55) identifies them as the sons of Caleb. They were most definitely Jews.

Stranger

Stranger said:

( 2 Samuel 4:2) identifies Rechab of the children of Benjamin. ( 1 Chron. 2:50-55) identifies them as the sons of Caleb. They were most definitely Jews.

Stranger

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Can't be true Jews if they are the Kenites, which were a people that lived in the nations of Canaan:

Gen 15:19-21
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

Davy said:

I did, you just refuse to recognize it. Here it is again:

Matt.23 - Jesus speaking to unbelievers of the Jews

Matt.24 - Jesus speaking to His Church

You cannot equate Jesus' disciples with the unbelieving Jews. Jesus chose His Apostles to be the foundation of His Church under The New Testament, not the old, and that regardless that Jesus had yet to be crucified. You should never confuse the unbelievers of the Jews that wanted to kill Jesus with Christ's own Apostles and disciples who believed on Him.

Click to expand...

I didn't equate Jesus's disciples with unbelieving Jews. But at this time neither do they constitute the Church. The Church does not exist. They are viewing things and asking questions from a believing Jew's point of view. One who expects the Messiah of Israel to come.

You should never confuse what God is doing with Israel and with what God is doing with the Church.

Stranger

Davy said:

Can't be true Jews if they are the Kenites, which were a people that lived in the nations of Canaan:

Gen 15:19-21
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

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What can't be true? (2 Sam. 4:2) or (1 Chron. 2:50-55)?

Stranger

Stranger said:

I didn't equate Jesus's disciples with unbelieving Jews. But at this time neither do they constitute the Church. The Church does not exist. They are viewing things and asking questions from a believing Jew's point of view. One who expects the Messiah of Israel to come.

You should never confuse what God is doing with Israel and with what God is doing with the Church.

Stranger

Click to expand...

God's Church (congregation) began in Old Testament times. Jesus was prophesied to come back in the OT Books. In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul taught the Gospel was preached also to Abraham, that he believed, and that all those of faith have become the children of Abraham. But the Jews were blinded away from this revealing in the OT Books, as many of them today are still blinded away from understanding it. In Ephesians 2, Paul taught that the foundation of Christ's Church are the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus as its chief Cornerstone. The OT prophets were not there on the Mount of Olives with Jesus' disciples when He gave those signs of the end. Figure it out.

Stranger said:

What can't be true? (2 Sam. 4:2) or (1 Chron. 2:50-55)?

Stranger

Click to expand...

Your response shows you deny that Genesis 15 and 1 Chronicles 55 Scripture I quoted showing the Kenites were not Jews, but were a people from the land of Canaan, and that those Kenites of Jabez were the scribes. Nothing more to say really, since you deny God's Word on that.

Davy said:

God's Church (congregation) began in Old Testament times

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Actually our Lords church if one must call it that, began at Pentecost, when

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

His Church is a spiritual church, teh Jews and there religion was carnal, it was all by the flesh as it is even so today, Christ is our foundation but it is by "revelation" that He is building His church..

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

which is why mens religions are not from God, all carnal none based on revelation, which comes form God alone.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

This happened long before... Pentecost:

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

By that Apostle Paul showed that our faith is the same as Abraham's. We have believed the same Promise that Abraham believed and it was accounted to Abraham as righteouness. That Promise was given 430 years before the law, so no man can say it was tied to the giving of the law.


Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Therefore, that... was the real start of God's Church.

Davy said:

God's Church (congregation) began in Old Testament times. Jesus was prophesied to come back in the OT Books. In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul taught the Gospel was preached also to Abraham, that he believed, and that all those of faith have become the children of Abraham. But the Jews were blinded away from this revealing in the OT Books, as many of them today are still blinded away from understanding it. In Ephesians 2, Paul taught that the foundation of Christ's Church are the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus as its chief Cornerstone. The OT prophets were not there on the Mount of Olives with Jesus' disciples when He gave those signs of the end. Figure it out.

Click to expand...

The Church did not begin until (Acts 2).

Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament to come the first and second time.

Just because we who are Christian become also the seed of Abraham doesn't make us Israel. Israel's blindness is temporary.

Old Testament prophets also prophesied of the end.

Stranger

Davy said:

Your response shows you deny that Genesis 15 and 1 Chronicles 55 Scripture I quoted showing the Kenites were not Jews, but were a people from the land of Canaan, and that those Kenites of Jabez were the scribes. Nothing more to say really, since you deny God's Word on that.

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I don't deny (Gen. 15) or (1 Chron. 2:50-55)

First of all, if these scribes in (1 Chron. 2:55) are to be identified with the scribes in the New Testament, they would have still been of Israel as they would have come into the faith of Israel. Just like in (2 Sam. 4:2) Baanah, and Rechab were Beeerothites but rekoned to the tribe of Benjamin. Remember also that Ruth was of Moab, the grandmother of David. Was David a Jew? Of course he was. Moses married a woman of Median. Was Moses children Israelites. Of course they were.

Second of all, the scribes of the New Testament have their origin in Ezra. (Ezra 7:11) "Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel."

(Neh. 8:8-9) "So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading, And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites that taught the people...."

Was Ezra a Jew or Israelite. Of course he was.

From (A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Christ, Emil Schurer, Hendrickson pub., 2008, p. 306) " The fact most essentially conclusive for the religious life of the Jewish people during the period under consideration is, that the law,which regulated not only the priestly service but the whole life of the people i n their religious, moral and social relations, was acknowledged as given by God Himself.....Hence the specific character of Israelitish piety during this period depends on the acknowledgement of this dignity of the law.

"The age of this acknowledgement may be determined almost to the day and hour. It dates from that important occurrence,whose epoch-making importance is duly brought forward in the Book of Nehemiah,the reading of the law by Ezra, and the solemn engagement of the people to observe it."

(From same book, p. 3:13) "In the time of Ezra, and indeed long after, this was chiefly the concern of the priests...Gradually however this was changed...Hence non-priestly Israelites more and more occupied themselves with its scientific study. An independent class of 'biblicial scholars or scribes,' ie of men who made acquaintance with thelaw a profession, was formed beside the priest....Int the time of the New Testament we find this process fully completed; the scribes then formed a firmly compacted class in undisputed possession of a spiritual supremacy over the people."


The scribes were Jews.

Stranger

Stranger said:

The Church did not begin until (Acts 2).

Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament to come the first and second time.

Just because we who are Christian become also the seed of Abraham doesn't make us Israel. Israel's blindness is temporary.

Old Testament prophets also prophesied of the end.

Stranger

Click to expand...

Even the Gentiles who have believed on Christ Jesus are now part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2).

The name Israel is the Salvation name based on the Promise God gave to Abraham, and the Promise then went to Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, and then Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today under Christ Jesus and His Church. Apostle Paul explained this in Romans 9 when he said "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." (Rom.9:6)

Paul speaking to Gentile believers:

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

The OT "prophets" being included in that "foundation" is because The Gospel actually began to be preached back in the Old Testament Books when God revealed it to His chosen, like David who also was a prophet, in Psalms 22 which gives many of the events of Christ's crucifixion about a thousand years before it happened.

Stranger said:

I don't deny (Gen. 15) or (1 Chron. 2:50-55)

First of all, if these scribes in (1 Chron. 2:55) are to be identified with the scribes in the New Testament, they would have still been of Israel as they would have come into the faith of Israel. Just like in (2 Sam. 4:2) Baanah, and Rechab were Beeerothites but rekoned to the tribe of Benjamin. Remember also that Ruth was of Moab, the grandmother of David. Was David a Jew? Of course he was. Moses married a woman of Median. Was Moses children Israelites. Of course they were.

Click to expand...

You are deluded if you think Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab of 1 Chron.2:55 was of Israel. Not the same Rechab of 2 Samuel 4 either, which is easy to know since 1 Chron.2:55 names them as Kenites, which Gen.15 reveals the Kenites were a people that lived in the lands of Canaan. A Kenite cannot be a son of Benjamin.

And furthermore, even in the times of Ezra and Nehemiah after the return from Babylon, the leftovers of the nations of Canaan were still mixed in with Israel, even some had crept into the priesthood which God had forbidden, and many of the people had taken wives of the Canaanites during the captivity in Babylon. The Nethinims (temple servants) were many of these foreigners that crept in. This is why Ezra in Ezra 8 had to send Nethinims back to Babylon to get Levite priests because he saw none of the sons of Levi returning.

Davy said:

Even the Gentiles who have believed on Christ Jesus are now part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2).

The name Israel is the Salvation name based on the Promise God gave to Abraham, and the Promise then went to Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, and then Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today under Christ Jesus and His Church. Apostle Paul explained this in Romans 9 when he said "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." (Rom.9:6)

Paul speaking to Gentile believers:

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

The OT "prophets" being included in that "foundation" is because The Gospel actually began to be preached back in the Old Testament Books when God revealed it to His chosen, like David who also was a prophet, in Psalms 22 which gives many of the events of Christ's crucifixion about a thousand years before it happened.

Click to expand...

Gentiles are now near to the commonwealth of Israel. They do not become Israel. (Eph. 2:11-13)

(Rom. 9:6) doesn't mean a Gentile is a Jew. It means that not all of Israel are the true Israel of God. Only if an Israelite had the faith of Abraham was he a child of promise and a true Israelite.

Yes, the saved Gentiles and the Church are part of the household of God. They are just not Israel.

Stranger

Davy said:

You are deluded if you think Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab of 1 Chron.2:55 was of Israel. Not the same Rechab of 2 Samuel 4 either, which is easy to know since 1 Chron.2:55 names them as Kenites, which Gen.15 reveals the Kenites were a people that lived in the lands of Canaan. A Kenite cannot be a son of Benjamin.

And furthermore, even in the times of Ezra and Nehemiah after the return from Babylon, the leftovers of the nations of Canaan were still mixed in with Israel, even some had crept into the priesthood which God had forbidden, and many of the people had taken wives of the Canaanites during the captivity in Babylon. The Nethinims (temple servants) were many of these foreigners that crept in. This is why Ezra in Ezra 8 had to send Nethinims back to Babylon to get Levite priests because he saw none of the sons of Levi returning.

Click to expand...

I gave (2 Saumel 4:2) as an example of how a people were included into Israel. So again, Bannah and Rechab were Beerothites. "...a Beerothite, of the children of Benjamin: (for Beerouth also was reckoned to Benjamin..."

Pay attention. The scribes of the New Testament had their beginning with Ezra. Read again the quote, which you left out, of Shurer in my post #31. "Hence non-priestly Israelites"

You are the one deluded if you think the Jews who were adamant about their race and religion would allow someone who was not considered a Jew as a teacher of the Law of Moses.

Your last paragraph adds nothing to your argument. Again, Ezra was the beginning of the Scribes of Israel.

Stranger

Davy said:

Your response shows you deny that Genesis 15 and 1 Chronicles 55 Scripture I quoted showing the Kenites were not Jews, but were a people from the land of Canaan, and that those Kenites of Jabez were the scribes. Nothing more to say really, since you deny God's Word on that.

Click to expand...

Perhaps the attached PDF will answer some of the questions being asked concerning the Kenites and where they came from.

Stranger said:

Gentiles are now near to the commonwealth of Israel. They do not become Israel. (Eph. 2:11-13)

(Rom. 9:6) doesn't mean a Gentile is a Jew. It means that not all of Israel are the true Israel of God. Only if an Israelite had the faith of Abraham was he a child of promise and a true Israelite.

Yes, the saved Gentiles and the Church are part of the household of God. They are just not Israel.

Stranger

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You're holding to Jewish tradition, not Christian doctrine with that.

What Paul later said in Eph.2 which proves he meant believing Gentiles have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel":

Eph 2:16-20
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
KJV

Both believing Israel and believing Gentile are to become ONE BODY in Christ Jesus. It's called His Church, or God's Church if you prefer, and Israel is the name upon all believers in it. In the future after Christ's return the unbelievers of Israel will no longer be called Israel.

"Tomorrow People"

Matthew 6:34 Lexicon: "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

(one of these things
is not like the other...)

Stranger said:

The Church did not begin until (Acts 2).

Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament to come the first and second time.

Just because we who are Christian become also the seed of Abraham doesn't make us Israel. Israel's blindness is temporary.

Old Testament prophets also prophesied of the end.

Stranger

Click to expand...

That's the popular tradition, but what Paul showed about Abraham in Galatians 3 proves The Gospel Promise of Salvation existed first with Abraham, and Abraham believed, and it was accounted as righteousness. And by that all those of Faith have become the children of Abraham (spiritually of course).

Same thing in Romans 9 when Paul was teaching about believers on Jesus of the nations having become spiritual seed of Israel. That means God's concept of His Israel involves only believers on Him through His Son Jesus Christ, and no others. Like Paul also showed in Romans 11, if one born of the literal seed of Israel remains in unbelief, then they are "cut off", meaning they are no longer a part of God's Israel.

The reason for this is because the name Israel is the Salvation name, not just a geographical/national name. It is the new name which God gave to Jacob to represent the Salvation Promise inherited down from Abraham, the same Promise by Faith which Abraham first believed and that was passed to all peoples who believe on God's Promised Savior. If those born of Israel today who reject Jesus still do so after His return, they will no longer have any part in God's Israel, the only Israel that will exist in that world to come.

Stranger said:

I don't deny (Gen. 15) or (1 Chron. 2:50-55)

First of all, if these scribes in (1 Chron. 2:55) are to be identified with the scribes in the New Testament, they would have still been of Israel as they would have come into the faith of Israel. Just like in (2 Sam. 4:2) Baanah, and Rechab were Beeerothites but rekoned to the tribe of Benjamin. Remember also that Ruth was of Moab, the grandmother of David. Was David a Jew? Of course he was. Moses married a woman of Median. Was Moses children Israelites. Of course they were.

Second of all, the scribes of the New Testament have their origin in Ezra. (Ezra 7:11) "Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel."

(Neh. 8:8-9) "So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading, And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites that taught the people...."

Was Ezra a Jew or Israelite. Of course he was.

From (A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Christ, Emil Schurer, Hendrickson pub., 2008, p. 306) " The fact most essentially conclusive for the religious life of the Jewish people during the period under consideration is, that the law,which regulated not only the priestly service but the whole life of the people i n their religious, moral and social relations, was acknowledged as given by God Himself.....Hence the specific character of Israelitish piety during this period depends on the acknowledgement of this dignity of the law.

"The age of this acknowledgement may be determined almost to the day and hour. It dates from that important occurrence,whose epoch-making importance is duly brought forward in the Book of Nehemiah,the reading of the law by Ezra, and the solemn engagement of the people to observe it."

(From same book, p. 3:13) "In the time of Ezra, and indeed long after, this was chiefly the concern of the priests...Gradually however this was changed...Hence non-priestly Israelites more and more occupied themselves with its scientific study. An independent class of 'biblicial scholars or scribes,' ie of men who made acquaintance with thelaw a profession, was formed beside the priest....Int the time of the New Testament we find this process fully completed; the scribes then formed a firmly compacted class in undisputed possession of a spiritual supremacy over the people."


The scribes were Jews.

Stranger

Click to expand...

The scribes of Jabez per 1 Chron.2:55 were NOT... born of the seed of Israel.

They CALLED themselves Jews because the title of 'Jew' also was applied to foreigners who simply lived in the lands of Judea (per Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D.). That's the return from Babylon name, and it only applied to those of the "house of Judah" made up of 3 tribes of Israel (Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small number of remnants of the ten northern tribes that went south when Jeroboam setup the two calf idols).

Today, ANYONE can become a Jew. Sammy Davis, Jr. a black entertainer, became a Jew. But the original title came from the tribe Judah.

Because Israel had disobeyed God in destroying the specific nations of Canaan that He commanded Israel to totally destroyed, He allowed the remnants of Canaanites to dwell with Israel, and He said He would use them to try Israel, to see if His people would follow Him, or not (Judges 2 & 3). In Joshua's time, some of the Canaanites, out of fear, crept in among Israel parading as starved foreigners trekking from a far away land. Joshua made a pact with them to come in and live amongst Israel, before he found out they were Canaanites. So Joshua made them hewers of wood. Per 1 Kings 9, the Canaanites were still dwelling among the children of Israel. They became the Nethinims, and eventually some of them crept into the priest office (Ezra 2). And in later times they dwelt at the tower of Ophil in the city of David. By the time our Lord Jesus appeared in Jerusalem, those Canaanites had already crept into the scribe office and among the Pharisees.

Only when Jesus returns will those Canaanites who crept in be cast out...

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

So the bloodline purity of Jews is a huge falsehood. They are probably one of the most mixed of different peoples than any other today.

Ezra 9:1-3
9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, "The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.

2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.
KJV