Mosaic Law For Christians

fivesense said:

Logabe.

With right understanding and the grasp of the grace of God, your posts are dynamic and powerful.

I pray the Body comes to grips with this issue, and the "Judaisers" find their table becomes a snare.

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The present day club of law-keepers are subjects of the same confusion the Council of Nicea and the Romanish church fell to, the inability to rightly divide the word of truth, the Circumcision truths and the truth for today that Paul the Apostle received from the Glorified Christ. His place as the Apostle to the Gentiles is a point of contention in particular with the "club", as following Paul produces liberty in Christ and maturity in sonship. The Adversary has devoured many saints throughout the centuries with his masquerade, and will continue to do so wherever works are placed on par with grace and faith-obedience.

fivesense

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fivesence...I have some hope...thank God we agree on something.
I do appreciate and respect your knowledge of the scriptures and
I have learned some things from you also. Now it's time to make
you mad...just kidding.

In Galatians 2:11-13 Paul tells how he confronted Peter in his
hypocritical actions when the Judaizers came up from Jerusalem.
Peter did not want to offend the Judaizers, so he deferred to their
refusal to eat with "Gentiles," even though he had eaten with them
all the time without the knowledge of the Judaizers. Paul confronted
him and exposed his little secret to the Judaizers.

Paul explains the situation and sets forth his position beginning
in Gal. 2:14,

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the
truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all,
"If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles [when the Judaizers
were not around to witness this] and not like the Jews, how
is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
15 We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from among the
Gentiles; [Do I detect a bit of sarcasm here?]
16 nevertheless, knowing that a man is not justified by the
works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we
have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by
faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the
works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Verse 16 is the core of the argument. It states plainly that there
is only one way to be justified before God, and that is through
faith in Christ Jesus. Paul makes it clear that no flesh is justified
by the works of the Law, and that all are justified in the same
manner. There is only one path to justification. This verse ought
to lay to rest any distorted gospel that allows for two methods of
justification. Jews are not justified by the Old Covenant, nor is
anyone else.

Paul's use of the term "Law" (at least in this particular context)
includes not only the divine Law itself but also the traditions of
men which misunderstood the Law. Paul was talking generally
of works as a means of justification. The Old Covenant said
"If you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant,"
(Ex. 19:5), making salvation conditional upon man's obedience--
that is, not only his vow to obey but also his ability to keep that
vow perfectly. Paul's argument is that all have sinned, no one
has been capable of keeping his promise of obedience, all
have fallen short of the glory of God, both Jew and Gentile alike.

Hence, no matter what one's understanding of the Law is,
whether it be a true understanding or a mere "tradition of men,"
all have violated the Old Covenant, rendering it null and void.
The Old Covenant was a conditional covenant, one that
depended upon both parties (God and man) to fulfill their
promises and vows, in order to keep the covenant valid.

Israel violated the Covenant from the start, and even though
God was patient with them, His patience only served to give
the nation time to be totally without excuse. Time only proved
that the nation was irretrievably corrupt. So in discussing the
Old Covenant, Heb. 8:9 says, "For they did not continue in My
Covenant." In verse 13 the conclusion reads,

13 When He said, "A New Covenant," He has made the
first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and
growing old is ready to disappear.

So in Galatians 2, Paul does not seek to distinguish between
the true Law and the traditions of men as Jesus had done in
Matt. 15:1-9. To Paul, it was a moot point insofar as the present
argument was concerned. Regardless of any man's view of
right and wrong, all men have violated their own understanding
of the Law. All are self-condemned by their own standards.

17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we
ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ
then a minister of sin? May it never be!

When Paul says "we ourselves," he was continuing the thought
from verse 15, when he says, "We are Jews by nature." We can
then paraphrase verse 17:

"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we who are Jews
by nature have also been found sinners [such as the sin of
hypocrisy], is Christ then a minister of sin?"

Keep in mind that sin is lawlessness, or the violation of the law.
1 John 3:4 gives us the biblical definition of sin:

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness;
and sin is lawlessness.

So any time we read the word "sin," we can substitute its definition,
or equivalent, "lawlessness." A sinner, then, is a law-breaker, one
who violates the law. In the humanistic world, such a law-breaker
is called a "criminal." Sin is the biblical word for crime against the
law of God.

So Paul is saying in verse 17 above that if Jews--particularly
Christian Jews--are also found to be hypocrites, then it might be
asked if Christ is a minister of sin? In other words, did Christ
come to condone the sin of hypocrisy? "May it never be!"

The question Paul puts forth here is this: If we as Jews by nature
have accepted Christ as our Passover Lamb who justifies us
from sin, and then we are "found sinners," can we justify ourselves
by insisting that Christ now gives us a free pass to sin whenever
we wish? In other words, are we now allowed to sin that grace
may abound? (Romans 6:1). Having been justified by faith, having
seen our sins forgiven and cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, are
we now free to sin without consequence?

If anyone thinks that they have such freedom, they hold a distorted
gospel. Grace does not give us the right to continue violating the
Law of God. In fact, if you read Paul's dissertation in Romans 6, you
find that we should have DIED to the old man of sin. We ought to be
yielding our "members" (body parts) as servants of righteousness
(lawfulness), rather than allowing them to continue in sin as if they
are free to disobey God at will.

18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself
to be a transgressor.

Paul has not destroyed the Law. By faith he has identified with Christ
in His death and resurrection. The old man has died. The old Adam,
the original sinner, has been destroyed, and the life that he now lives
is Christ in Him. So we should understand verse 18 as follows:

18 "For if I were to resurrect the old Adam by continuing in
his lawless ways--whom I destroyed (put to death) when
I became a believer in Christ--I would prove myself to be
a transgressor (of the law).

19 For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live
to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I
who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now
live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved
me, and delivered Himself up for me.

It is not the Law that died. It is the old Saul that died. When Saul
was converted, he "died to the Law" as a means of justification.
He found a new way in Christ. This new way did not kill the Law
or put it away, but satisfied its righteous demand by the life and
Sacrifice of Christ.

Logabe

logabe said:

fivesence...I have some hope...thank God we agree on something.
I do appreciate and respect your knowledge of the scriptures and
I have learned some things from you also. Now it's time to make
you mad...just kidding.

In Galatians 2:11-13 Paul tells how he confronted Peter in his
hypocritical actions when the Judaizers came up from Jerusalem.
Peter did not want to offend the Judaizers, so he deferred to their
refusal to eat with "Gentiles," even though he had eaten with them
all the time without the knowledge of the Judaizers. Paul confronted
him and exposed his little secret to the Judaizers.

Verse 16 is the core of the argument. It states plainly that there
is only one way to be justified before God, and that is through
faith in Christ Jesus. Paul makes it clear that no flesh is justified
by the works of the Law, and that all are justified in the same
manner. There is only one path to justification. This verse ought
to lay to rest any distorted gospel that allows for two methods of
justification. Jews are not justified by the Old Covenant, nor is
anyone else.

It is not the Law that died. It is the old Saul that died. When Saul
was converted, he "died to the Law" as a means of justification.
He found a new way in Christ. This new way did not kill the Law
or put it away, but satisfied its righteous demand by the life and
Sacrifice of Christ.

Logabe

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Logabe, I stand with you on virtually all that you put forth, and the Word confirms it. It is solid truth and it is power of salvation. I applaud the work that God has done in your heart and mind towards knowing the power of His resurrection. The things you speak cannot be gainsaid or cast down. They are set in the foundation of heaven.

I ask of you this one thing. Did not Paul say we, the nations, never had the Law or the ordinances? That we never were a part of the promises of God, except via Israel and their election, subserviant and destined for rule under their priesthood and kingdom? I'm sure you know the passages that I speak of here, so my contention is that applying "Law" as something that all mankind is guilty of failing to obey, is incorrect and warps the truth.

To me, it is robbery to take what belongs to Israel, whether it is the legislation, the oracles, the covenant, or the promises of God, and make them ours. They never were or ever will be our blessings in flesh. We are part of the new creation out of heaven that is to show up on the scene much later. Our translation into spirits like our Lord will be towards that end. It was never given as a promise or a blessing of the Jewish Covenant and Prophets. It is justification apart from all that, though they will come into the same thing we have already, after the season of the Subjector ends.

I guess my contention is rooted in the correct partitioning of the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), and the fruit that comes about from failing to administer that requirement as a workman of God.

You bless me, logabe, with your fervor and desire. I keep this before me in our conversations, and to be like-minded with you is a privilege.

fivesense

fivesense said:

Logabe, I stand with you on virtually all that you put forth, and the Word confirms it. It is solid truth and it is power of salvation. I applaud the work that God has done in your heart and mind towards knowing the power of His resurrection. The things you speak cannot be gainsaid or cast down. They are set in the foundation of heaven.

I ask of you this one thing. Did not Paul say we, the nations, never had the Law or the ordinances? That we never were a part of the promises of God, except via Israel and their election, subserviant and destined for rule under their priesthood and kingdom? I'm sure you know the passages that I speak of here, so my contention is that applying "Law" as something that all mankind is guilty of failing to obey, is incorrect and warps the truth.

To me, it is robbery to take what belongs to Israel, whether it is the legislation, the oracles, the covenant, or the promises of God, and make them ours. They never were or ever will be our blessings in flesh. We are part of the new creation out of heaven that is to show up on the scene much later. Our translation into spirits like our Lord will be towards that end.

It was never given as a promise or a blessing of the Jewish Covenant and Prophets. It is justification apart from all that, though they will come into the same thing we have already, after the season of the Subjector ends.

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I guess my contention is rooted in the correct partitioning of the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), and the fruit that comes about from failing to administer that requirement as a workman of God.

You bless me, logabe, with your fervor and desire. I keep this before me in our conversations, and to be like-minded with you is a privilege.

fivesense

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fivesence...that is the point I'm trying to make...it's not about
the Law being done away with but, it is about justification and
how it is applied now.

Those who teach that the Gentiles are saved by faith, while Jews
are saved by the law, never seem to understand that Abraham
himself was justified by faith. The fact that Abraham was to be
made a great nation [goy] adds some humor to our dispute,
because one might argue that Abraham was not one of the
"chosen people" who was allowed to be saved by the law. He
was one of the ethnos, or goy, justified by faith, along with Paul
and everyone else.

Paul says that Abraham was called, chosen, and elected to bless
all nations with this gospel of faith. He was not called to hoard the
idea of faith for himself, but to teach it and to dispense it to all
other nations. Abraham was not the only one capable of faith.
He was to bless all nations by teaching them to have faith in God
as well. Hence, those who respond are "blessed with Abraham"
in the same manner that Abraham himself was blessed.

Paul was passionate about overthrowing the Jewish idea that
being "chosen" meant that they were a people of privilege. He
saw the Abrahamic commission as a mandate to dispense the
blessings of faith to all nations. He argued forcefully that all men
were justified by faith equally, and that there was just one way to
be saved. Though the Old Covenant gave opportunity (if it were
possible) to be saved by one's own works, that method was
destined to fail from the start because "all have sinned"
(Rom. 3:23).

So Paul's conclusion was that anyone who exhibited genuine
faith in Christ was figuratively a "son of Abraham." The Scriptures
speak of the "sons of light," the "sons of thunder," the "children
of the devil," the "children of wisdom." These are all figurative
"sons," based on the idea that those who follow the example of
their "father" were his "sons."

So also with the children of Abraham, as Paul tells us later in
Galatians 3. The point is that no one has to be physically
descended from Abraham to be a "son of Abraham." One must,
however, exhibit the faith seen in Abraham to be truly his "son."
It is ironic that this actually disqualified the Jews as far as God
was concerned, because in their adherence to the Old Covenant,
they were zealously working to achieve justification before God.

Logabe

logabe said:

fivesence...that is the point I'm trying to make...it's not about
the Law being done away with but, it is about justification and
how it is applied now.

Those who teach that the Gentiles are saved by faith, while Jews
are saved by the law, never seem to understand that Abraham
himself was justified by faith. Logabe

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Outstanding apprehension of the grace of God logabe. It is a pleasure to read your posts. It all is confimation in the faith that we share in Christ Jesus.The Body of Christ, His complement that is to rule with Him in the heavenly realm, reconciling the spiritual powers and principalities that inhabit it, is not what is to be conferred upon Israel and those who are Abrahams seed according to flesh. The New Covenant of Jeremiah is as follows:

AV Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This has not occurred, has it? It shall occur, for certain. At His advent, all Israel shall be saved, with the Law written supenaturally in their inward parts. They will continue operating in faith and works, with the law ever-present in their consciences, ministering reconciliation and healing to the nations, and acting as the priests and Kings of God on earth.

They will be with God, and they will fulfill the Law. Those who do not, will be in danger of Gehenna fire, outside Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 31 is not a "spiritual" or figurative utterance. It is a literal declaration and prophetic promise. It has not yet been fulfilled. At His return to earth, it will find fulfillment. That there is a spiritual counterpart found in the Body of Christ is a different matter. The physical must first obtain for them, for them to enter into the latter in the future.

We are not of Israel. We have never been under, given, judged, or measured according to the Law. We were Gentiles, aliens, strangers, without God, until God revealed His Son in us and called us out unto Himself through grace and faith in Christ. No connection whatsoever to the Covenant or the law or the promises.Our election to become the Body of Christ in heaven is a gift, unmerited, unworthily bestowed, with no effort on our part.

Those of the Jewish people who embraced Paul's gospel of the grace of God were elect and chosen, apart from the Law, in Christ from before the disruption of the earth. There is neither Gentile nor Jew in the Body, they are one in Spirit. Not so for the Hebrews of the unfulfilled New Covenant. Their portion, upon the earth as kings and priests, is yet to arrive. And they shall always be the superior race while on earth, according to the declaration of God.

fivesense

fivesense said:

"...We are not of Israel...."

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fs, who are you including in the "we" here.

fivesense said:

Outstanding apprehension of the grace of God logabe. It is a pleasure to read your posts. It all is confimation in the faith that we share in Christ Jesus.The Body of Christ, His complement that is to rule with Him in the heavenly realm, reconciling the spiritual powers and principalities that inhabit it, is not what is to be conferred upon Israel and those who are Abrahams seed according to flesh. The New Covenant of Jeremiah is as follows:

AV Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This has not occurred, has it

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? It shall occur, for certain. At His advent, all Israel shall be saved, with the Law written supenaturally in their inward parts. They will continue operating in faith and works, with the law ever-present in their consciences, ministering reconciliation and healing to the nations, and acting as the priests and Kings of God on earth.

They will be with God, and they will fulfill the Law. Those who do not, will be in danger of Gehenna fire, outside Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 31 is not a "spiritual" or figurative utterance. It is a literal declaration and prophetic promise. It has not yet been fulfilled. At His return to earth, it will find fulfillment. That there is a spiritual counterpart found in the Body of Christ is a different matter. The physical must first obtain for them, for them to enter into the latter in the future.

We are not of Israel. We have never been under, given, judged, or measured according to the Law. We were Gentiles, aliens, strangers, without God, until God revealed His Son in us and called us out unto Himself through grace and faith in Christ. No connection whatsoever to the Covenant or the law or the promises.Our election to become the Body of Christ in heaven is a gift, unmerited, unworthily bestowed, with no effort on our part.

Those of the Jewish people who embraced Paul's gospel of the grace of God were elect and chosen, apart from the Law, in Christ from before the disruption of the earth. There is neither Gentile nor Jew in the Body, they are one in Spirit. Not so for the Hebrews of the unfulfilled New Covenant. Their portion, upon the earth as kings and priests, is yet to arrive. And they shall always be the superior race while on earth, according to the declaration of God.

fivesense

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fivesence...As I have already said, the law itself is not the problem.
The problem is the Old Covenant, which required men to keep the law
in order to be justified. The New Covenant did not put away the law but
is the promise of God to write it on our hearts by the power of His Spirit
indwelling our flesh. If the law were evil, then God would never write it
on our hearts.

The New Covenant functions by faith in Christ. He kept the law perfectly,
and by faith we are His body. Thus, God attributes the perfection of
Jesus Christ to us on account of the unity of the body.

The Judaizers were still placing their faith in the Mosaic method of
salvation--that is, the Old Covenant--instead of looking to Abraham,
by whom we receive the example of Faith. The Galatians were caught
between Paul's teaching and that of the Judaizers, not knowing which
was the Truth. So Paul says in Gal. 3:1-3,

1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before
whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as
crucified?
2 This is the one thing I want to find out from you: did you
receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing
with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you
now being perfected by the flesh?

They all had faith in the blood of the Passover Lamb, wherein they
were justified. But did they receive the Holy Spirit through the
law--that is, through their ability to keep the law? In other words,
did they have to qualify by certain works to be righteous enough to
receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Or did they also receive the
Spirit through faith?

The argument is quite real. After all, Pentecost was a celebration
of the giving of the law at Sinai.What they missed was the fact that
Pentecost was something that God did by His sovereign will. It
was the day that He spoke the Ten Commandments. The people
were too fearful to hear, however, and so they sent Moses up the
Mount to hear on their behalf (Ex. 20:18-21). In other words, the
people had FEAR, not FAITH. So they did not receive the Spirit at
that time under Moses.

The people were supposed to receive the law by hearing His
voice and allowing the Holy Spirit to write it in their hearts. Faith
comes by hearing (Rom. 10:17). The original pattern of Pentecost
shows us that the law was indeed very much present, because it
was the Word of God that was being spoken; but the people had
to lay aside their fear and exercise FAITH in order to hear that law.
Only then could it be written on their hearts.

Therefore, the Spirit of God did not come by the law, or by man's
ability to keep the law, but by the faith that came through their
ability to HEAR WITHOUT FEAR.

Under the Old Covenant, then, the people received the law
externally, written on tables of stone, rather than on the tablet
of their heart. The law was thus imposed upon their unwilling
flesh as a discipline, much like a parent who "lays down the
law" to his children in order to train them in obedience. This
was not a bad thing, but an admission that the flesh was not
in agreement with the will of God and needed external laws
to restrain its evil tendency.

The Old Covenant restrained the flesh from the outside; the
New Covenant changes the heart from the inside. Both utilize
the law, but in different ways.

When the Judaizers said that we receive the Spirit by our legal
qualifications, they advocated the Old Covenant as the
foundation of Pentecost. Having begun by faith (Passover),
they taught that righteousness was determined by our acts
of obedience in accordance with the law, instead of by the
act of the Holy Spirit writing the law in our hearts.

fivesence...This may be seem like a technical point, but the
fruit of such thinking had produced the distorted gospel of the
Judaizers, who still wanted to find some way to keep the Old
Covenant alive. If the true Passover Lamb had indeed
destroyed the Old Covenant as a method of justification, then
they hoped to find a place for the Old Covenant in the
sanctification process of Pentecost.

How could they be so foolish?

The law is present in both Covenants, but the first puts the
responsibility upon man to fulfill it by trying hard to act
obediently, while the second puts the responsibility upon
God to do it in our hearts by means of faith. Gal. 3:5,

5 Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit
and works miracles among you, do it by the works
of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

In other words, did the people do righteous acts, which then
qualified them to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Or
did they receive the Spirit simply by hearing and believing
the word that was preached to them? Gal. 3:6-7,

6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned
to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who
are sons of Abraham.

Abraham is the father of Faith, because his faith was reckoned
to him as righteousness. In this, he foreshadowed the New
Covenant, and all who follow his example of faith are called
"sons of Abraham." This was the common terminology of the
day, for it was understood that "sons" were not merely physical
sons but also those who followed the example of another.

Logabe

Why is the following often left out of Paul's teaching?

Gal 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Apostle Paul made it very simple; IF... we be led of The Spirit, walking by The Spirit, THEN we are not under the law. We can walk by The Spirit or we can walk by the flesh. I'm a firm believer in what our Lord Jesus said that all manner of sin can be forgiven man, except blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. But teaching that the law has no effect upon us Gentiles if we walk by our flesh goes directly against what Apostle Paul himself taught. Paul taught a CONDITION to not be under the law. It's that simple.

Some Churches today are wrongly teaching that's it's OK to follow the ways of the flesh and still be under Christ's grace. That's not what Apostle Paul taught. If one walks by their flesh they shall not inherit the kingdom of God; that's what Apostle Paul taught.


Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
(KJV)

Has a Church that accepts the gay lifestyle crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts? No, instead that working is to PROMOTE lusts of the flesh, saying it's alright to do such things. And if that is allowed, what about the rest of the works of the flesh Paul listed there in Galatians 5? A job given to Christian leaders is to help bring sinners OUT of those sins, not ascribe to those sins acceptability under grace.

Something else Apostle Paul taught about the law...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

According to Paul's gospel committed to his trust from God, the law is good, IF a man use it lawfully. The law was not made for the righteous, but for the LAWLESS.

How is the law for the lawless, disobedient, ungodly, profane, the unholy and sinners? Go out and steal a car and you'll find out.

It's very clear Paul taught that those in Christ that continue to walk by the flesh will most definitely place themselves OUTSIDE Christ's Grace, and back under bondage to the law. Paul showed the law most definitely is not dead in that situation. Can Christ still save a sinner who comes out of the walk by flesh? Yes. There's a difference between a habitual sinner who doesn't care if they keep sinning or not, and a believer on Christ that slips up in sin, repents and asks forgiveness and makes a change in their life to not do it again.

Instead, many Churches today are preaching that God's laws are dead in the absolute sense, like it does not even exist anymore! Oh it still exists today, for God's laws still govern society and the lives of men, and that's what Apostle Paul was showing. Walk by The Spirit and you won't be LAWLESS, and thus you won't be under the law.


WHO WOULD WANT TO DO AWAY WITH THE LAW?

Understanding what Paul told Timothy in 1 Timothy 1, that should be easy to figure out. It's the LAWLESS, THE UNGODLY, THE PROFANE, THE UNHOLY, THE SINNER that wants the law to just go away and leave them alone! That way there would be no conviction of sin, no penalty, no need for penal systems even! Every flesh sin imaginable they would justify in their evil hearts. THAT is the type of thinking many preachers today have fallen into by the "crept in unawares" among God's people. And that's the reason why Christ's enemies are constantly trying to change the law to allow themselves freedom to do evil.

Brothers and sisters in Christ, like Apostle Paul said, "the law is good, if a man use it lawfully". Don't get sucked into the falsehoods of those who want the law to go away and leave them alone, for it's God's law that PROTECTS you and your community so that you may enjoy peace and righteousness in this life. The reason why in many areas it's not safe to go out into the street is because those whom God gave authority to oversee His law among those in Christ have listened to lovers of the lawless who refuse to apply the law upon the unrighteous.

veteran said:

Something else Apostle Paul taught about the law...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

According to Paul's gospel committed to his trust from God, the law is good, IF a man use it lawfully. The law was not made for the righteous, but for the LAWLESS....Walk by The Spirit and you won't be LAWLESS, and thus you won't be under the law.

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I love this verse and the way Paul explains why we are not under the mosaic law.

It explains how the prophecy from Jeremiah 31:31-34 applies “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it.” When those of faith 'choose' to walk by spirit, they carry out no fleshly desire and therefore they naturally obey Gods laws without the need for laws to be imposed.
thankyou for highlighting this aspect.

fivesense said:

Logabe, I stand with you on virtually all that you put forth, and the Word confirms it. It is solid truth and it is power of salvation. I applaud the work that God has done in your heart and mind towards knowing the power of His resurrection. The things you speak cannot be gainsaid or cast down. They are set in the foundation of heaven.

I ask of you this one thing. Did not Paul say we, the nations, never had the Law or the ordinances? That we never were a part of the promises of God, except via Israel and their election, subserviant and destined for rule under their priesthood and kingdom? I'm sure you know the passages that I speak of here, so my contention is that applying "Law" as something that all mankind is guilty of failing to obey, is incorrect and warps the truth.

To me, it is robbery to take what belongs to Israel, whether it is the legislation, the oracles,

the covenant, or the promises of God, and make them ours.

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They never were or ever will be our blessings in flesh. We are part of the new creation out of heaven that is to show up on the scene much later. Our translation into spirits like our Lord will be towards that end. It was never given as a promise or a blessing of the Jewish Covenant and Prophets. It is justification apart from all that, though they will come into the same thing we have already, after the season of the Subjector ends.

I guess my contention is rooted in the correct partitioning of the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), and the fruit that comes about from failing to administer that requirement as a workman of God.

You bless me, logabe, with your fervor and desire. I keep this before me in our conversations, and to be like-minded with you is a privilege.

fivesense

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fivesence...I don't want to have anything to do with the covenant that
God made with the Israelites under Moses other than learning from
their mistakes and realizing that no one can be justified whether a
Jew or Gentile alike under that covenant.

As for as "Promises", that's a different story and it is something we
as Christians need to understand so we can enjoy our Christian
experience.

In Galatians 3:10-14, Paul makes the contrast between Moses and
Abraham insofar as they were types of the Old and New Covenants.
In this, he focuses primarily on the terms of these covenants.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a
curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not
abide by all things written in the book of the Law to perform
them."

Paul speaks here of Judaism itself as well as the Judaizers in the
Church, all of whom "are of the works of the Law." He means that
those who depend upon their works, their performance, are under
the curse of the Law. Under the Old Covenant, the people vowed
obedience, not only at Mount Sinai when the Law was given
(Ex. 19:8), but also 40 years later in Deut. 27:26, the verse that
Paul quotes above. Deut. 27:26 reads in full,

26 Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this
law by doing them. And all the people shall say, "Amen."

If we were to write up a list of Israelites who actually performed the
requirement of the law, the list would be blank. Not even Moses
himself was fully obedient, for he was disqualified from entering
the Promised Land.

So the Old Covenant involved the people's vow of obedience, and
none of them kept their vow. Their vow was the condition set forth
by the Old Covenant by which they would receive the blessing of
God, which we know as "justification." Because all of them were
disobedient, the law could only curse them ( judge them for sin).

Paul understood this clearly. He knew that justification could come
only by the New Covenant established by Abraham and later
ratified by the blood of Jesus. So he says in verse 11,

11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is
evident; for "The righteous man shall live by faith."

The Old Covenant offered Israel an impossible path to immortal
life. All a person had to do was to keep the law perfectly! Obviously,
the people did not understand the real implications of this, for they
continued to have confidence that if they were zealous enough to
keep the law, then they would be justified before God.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse [judgments] of
the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written,
"Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."

The Law, which was meant for our good (Rom. 7:13), became a
curse to us, because it lacked the power to justify sinners. It
could only bring down the judgments of the Law upon anyone
who was disobedient. But Jesus came to hang on a tree in order
to fulfill Deut. 21:23, which pronounces a curse upon those who
are hanged on a tree.

In this way Jesus took the curse of the Law upon Himself, paying
its full penalty for the sin of the whole world. . .

14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of
Abraham might come to the Gentiles [nations], so
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit
through faith.

There is no "blessing of Moses," but only "the blessing of Abraham."
And because Abraham was to be a blessing to all the families of
the earth, the scope of the blessings that come by faith is universal.

Logabe

logabe said:

fivesence...I don't want to have anything to do with the covenant that
God made with the Israelites under Moses other than learning from
their mistakes and realizing that no one can be justified whether a
Jew or Gentile alike under that covenant.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse [judgments] of
the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written,
"Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."

The Law, which was meant for our good (Rom. 7:13), became a
curse to us, because it lacked the power to justify sinners. It
could only bring down the judgments of the Law upon anyone
who was disobedient. But Jesus came to hang on a tree in order
to fulfill Deut. 21:23, which pronounces a curse upon those who
are hanged on a tree.

In this way Jesus took the curse of the Law upon Himself, paying
its full penalty for the sin of the whole world. . .

14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of
Abraham might come to the Gentiles [nations], so
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit
through faith.

There is no "blessing of Moses," but only "the blessing of Abraham."
And because Abraham was to be a blessing to all the families of
the earth, the scope of the blessings that come by faith is universal.

Logabe

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It is so encouraging to my soul to hear you speak of the dymanic grace and freedom we have. The mistakes made by the nation of God's choosing are benefiting you and I today. When Paul uses the word "us", he is aligning himself with his race. He is not speaking about all of the ecclesia in verse thirteen. He is speaking about the remnant of the Jews that were trusting in the work of the Cross and his message, along with those who were his "yokefellows" of the Circumcision (Col 4:11). Paul was ever mindful of his nationality and the part it plays in God's plan for humanity. It is not over for them, and he was aware of that. I am sure he would have loved to have "pounded" his message to the Jews, until either they or he broke. But God shut that door in Acts 28. It is my perception that the whole of the Romans letter was written with the intention of addressing the Jewish believers struggling to understand Pauls revelations, and yet having a knowledge of their past conflicting with his teachings. The gentiles in this letter are usually second person, and not the subject of the address, although all of it is pertinent to us. Try reading it from that view, being addressed to Jewish saints, and be an observer, and you will discover much.

Mankind has already received the "penalty" for sin, in that they are all dying as a result, and the rations of sin is death. Jesus Christ came to redeem us from death, not "pay the penalty" for our sins. That is what I am trying to reinforce to you. The penalty thing is false and made up, it is not in the Scriptures.

fivesense

Jar said:

You either took the 600+ laws and became a Jew or you followed the ways of Jesus. While some of the 10 commandments are pretty obvious (thou shalt not kill) and are further expounded by the teachings of Jesus Christ, I believe that you can't arbitrarily pick and choose what commandments you want to follow- no matter how mainstream (the ten commandments) they are. I think in the case of the Laws of Moses this is definitely an 'All or Nothing' deal.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, there was never any adherence to the Laws of Sabbath. Never were the gentiles told that they had to be circumsized to follow Christ, a public argument that Paul had with Peter, accusing the other man of 'living like a Jew' which in turn provoked Paul to write what is now the Book of Galatians.

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Err,yeah just noticing this .... this jar is not me

JarBreaker said:

Err,yeah just noticing this .... this jar is not me

Click to expand...

Notice taken.
fivesense

fivesense said:

It is so encouraging to my soul to hear you speak of the dymanic grace and freedom we have. The mistakes made by the nation of God's choosing are benefiting you and I today. When Paul uses the word "us", he is aligning himself with his race. He is not speaking about all of the ecclesia in verse thirteen. He is speaking about the remnant of the Jews that were trusting in the work of the Cross and his message, along with those who were his "yokefellows" of the Circumcision (Col 4:11). Paul was ever mindful of his nationality and the part it plays in God's plan for humanity. It is not over for them, and he was aware of that. I am sure he would have loved to have "pounded" his message to the Jews, until either they or he broke. But God shut that door in Acts 28. It is my perception that the whole of the Romans letter was written with the intention of addressing the Jewish believers struggling to understand Pauls revelations, and yet having a knowledge of their past conflicting with his teachings.

The gentiles in this letter are usually second person, and not the subject of the address, although all of it is pertinent to us.

Click to expand...

Try reading it from that view, being addressed to Jewish saints, and be an observer, and you will discover much.

Mankind has already received the "penalty" for sin, in that they are all dying as a result, and the rations of sin is death. Jesus Christ came to redeem us from death, not "pay the penalty" for our sins. That is what I am trying to reinforce to you. The penalty thing is false and made up, it is not in the Scriptures.

fivesense

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fivesense...you are really tuff and I must say you make me dig
and also it causes me to confirm even more what I believe. So
I want to thank you ahead a time for your diligence and your
your ability to make me check myself and see if I really believe
the Gospel.

When Paul speaks of righteousness, it is from the Greek word
dikaiosune, from dikaios. It means justice, equity, equality, and
human rights. In other words, the "righteousness" of dikaiosune
has to do with the manner in which we treat others. We are not
to do injustice to others, nor are we to treat people with partiality,
but to recognize the God-given rights of all men to equal justice.

This is the essence of the Gospel of Abraham bound up in that
statement in Gen. 12:3,

3 "and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Abraham's FAITH is set forth in the statement in Gen. 15:6, after
promising him descendants as numerous as the stars of heaven:

6 "Then he believed [had faith in] the Lord; and He reckoned
it to him as righteousness."

In other words, Abraham believed that God's promise was true
and that it would come to pass. He would be given a multitude
of descendants who would be a blessing to all the families of
the earth. This is the Gospel preached to Abraham (Gal. 2:8).

Paul takes this to mean that the sons of Abraham are those who
actually ARE a blessing to all the families of the earth. Without
treating others with impartial justice, there is no fulfillment of
the Abrahamic Gospel. Those who are righteous before God
are the ones who BELIEVE this promise and who accept this
Gospel of justice, equality, and impartiality.

The Law of Moses was a further expression of the mind of God
which defined in greater detail the manner of impartial justice
that He expected of those elected to rule the earth in
righteousness. In other words, God revealed His mind and
Law to both Abraham and Moses, but Moses was charged with
codifying it [writing it down] and no doubt also received a greater
and more complete revelation of the Law. But to Abraham, too,
the Law was revealed, for God told Isaac in Gen. 26:4 and 5,

4 And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of
heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands;
and by your descendants all the nations of the earth
shall be blessed;
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge,
My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

Hence, the Law preceeded both Moses and Abraham, though
responsibility and accountability to it were limited to the
progressive revelation over the years. The primary distinction
between Moses and Abraham is in neither their faith nor their
obedience to the Law. The difference is in the Covenants that
they represent. The Mosaic Covenant requires fulfilling the
vow of perfect obedience in order to receive this blessing from
God, while the Abrahamic Covenant requires faith that God will
fulfill His promise in him and in his descendants.

The physical descendants of Abraham were called to dispense
the blessings of God to the rest of the world. They were
supposed to learn the laws and ways of God, so that they could
rule with impartial justice for all. However, they failed to fulfill their
vow of obedience, and for this reason the Mosaic Covenant was
broken irreparably and rendered "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).

The house of Israel was cast off and dispersed among the
nations, divorced from God (Jer. 3:8), stripped of her Birthright
name, and classed as "not My people" (Hos. 1:9). They became
as the other nations. The only way that they could regain an
elect position with God was through faith in the blood of Jesus
Christ. This requirement is no different from what God requires
equally of all nations, for Paul says in Rom. 3:22, "there is no
distinction" in this regard.

God is looking for those who actually believe the Gospel of
Abraham and who are willing to treat all men equitably by the
Law of Impartial Judgment (Ex. 23:1-9; James 2:9). Those
who have true faith are those who believe the Gospel of
Abraham, and then the righteous, equitable, impartial mind
and will of God is imputed to them in the records of the divine
court.

The purpose of Israel's election was to grant them the authority
to bless all nations by sharing with them the revelation that they
had received through the Scriptures. They failed first because
they interpreted election to mean privilege and decided to hoard
the Abrahamic blessings for themselves as an exclusive right.
Second, they failed because they had an unwarranted
confidence that their flesh could fulfill their vow of obedience
and could fulfill the requirement of the righteous standard of the
mind of God.

God knew from the start that the Old Covenant would not work.
Yet it was necessary to give the flesh full opportunity to try to
succeed on its own, so that it would be fully evident to all that
"there is none righteous, not even one" (Rom. 3:10). God gave
men about 1500 years to produce a single man who could
fulfill the vow of Exodus 19:8. That was more than enough time
to prove the point.

Then Jesus came to do what man could not do. Being born
of the Spirit, without human father, He was not tainted by the
sin of Adam and was therefore able to do all that the Law
required. He treated all men with equity and impartiality, and
after His ascension He revealed these principles in greater
ways to Philip, Peter, James, Paul, and all the disciples.

Paul vigorously defended these laws against the Judaizers
who sought to impose their own traditions of partiality upon
non-Jews and to maintain their assumed position of privilege
over all others. This was a direct violation of the Abrahamic
Covenant, and it proved that they were not really the "sons of
Abraham" after all, in spite of their genealogy. They did not
believe the Gospel which Abraham believed, but instead they
retained faith in Moses and his Covenant of works. They still
believed that their flesh could match up to the standard of the
Law, if only they were zealous enough and diligent enough to
achieve it.

The bottom line is that Israel was called to dispense the
blessings of God to all nations, so that all might come to
understand and experience the righteousness of Christ.
The impartiality of God was revealed from the beginning.
Though the plan started small with just one man, it was
designed to end with the reconciliation of all men. Anyone
who believes and accepts the calling of Abraham is a "son
of Abraham" in the sense that Paul uses it in Gal. 3:7.

Logabe

WOW Logabe, I am undone. That was awesome. I would have had an extremely hard time summing it up as succinctly and accurately as you have done. Very, very excellent. I praise God for this testimony to His Spirit and life in the sons of God, and I am blessed to have been part of this.

The division of the one promise to accord with flesh, the sands, and the one of faith, the stars, are the ancient Gospels of God. The Circumcision gospel of the Lord and the Twelve, and Paul's gospel for the uncircumcision reflect these prophetic utterances. You have aided me much to have made this clearer to me. God's wisdom and riches are so deep and unfathomable at times, it is good to taste even a small portion to fill this peanut brain.

fivesense

fivesense said:

WOW Logabe, I am undone. That was awesome. I would have had an extremely hard time summing it up as succinctly and accurately as you have done. Very, very excellent. I praise God for this testimony to His Spirit and life in the sons of God, and I am blessed to have been part of this.

The division of the one promise to accord with flesh, the sands, and the one of faith, the stars, are the ancient Gospels of God. The Circumcision gospel of the Lord and the Twelve, and Paul's gospel for the uncircumcision reflect these prophetic utterances. You have aided me much to have made this clearer to me. God's wisdom and riches are so deep and unfathomable at times, it is good to taste even a small portion to fill this peanut brain.

fivesense

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Thank's fivesense...I'll post some more tomorrow on this subject.

Logabe

logabe said:

Thank's fivesense...I'll post some more tomorrow on this subject.

Logabe

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The Promise came first and was unconditionally given to Abraham
and his seed. The Law of Moses could not--and did not--change
this fact. But the Will of God was revealed through Moses, as if the
heirs were able to get a preview of it prior to the death of the Testator.
When the Law said, "Thou shalt not steal," the Schoolmaster taught
the principle to the students through discipline and study, but the
underlying revelation was that this formed part of the very character
of the Testator, and He intended to transform the heirs into His image.

Thus, the Promise to the heirs was that when the Will was activated
at the death of the Testator, the Holy Spirit would be given to them,
transforming their Being into His own Image, so that they truly would
steal no more. Neither would they murder, commit adultery, or covet.
In other words, what was instruction, discipline, and a call to
obedience under the Mosaic Covenant was actually a Promise under
the New Covenant. It was a Promise that God would send the Holy
Spirit to work from within the heart and change one's character to
conform to the perfect mind of God as expressed in the Law of Moses.

Paul's argument is not that the Law was evil or unjust or even carnal.
He confessed everywhere that the Law was holy, just, and good
(Rom. 7:12) and even spiritual (Rom. 7:14). It was given in order to
teach righteousness to the heirs of the Promise, so they would know
how God intended them to reign with the impartiality of Christ Himself.
The problem was not the Law itself but in our relationship to the Law.
As long as the Law was our interim schoolmaster, our time was
being used wisely prior to the death of the Testator. But when the
Testator died, activating the Will of God, the Holy Spirit was then
sent to indwell us and change us into His image.

This change of Being and character did not come through the Mosaic
Covenant. The schoolmaster was not capable of transforming us into
the image of Christ. The schoolmaster could only reveal the
righteousness of Christ in the Law. "You can lead a horse to water,
but you can't make him drink." It was not possible for the heirs to be
perfected by the schoolmaster, because in the end, "all have sinned
and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

Because the student-heirs were yet carnal and mortal, the Law was
given because of their transgressions. But in the end, it was a training
exercise designed to show them a great underlying revelation: that the
schoolmaster had an impossible task in trying to perfect the flesh by
diligent study and rigorous discipline. The wisdom of God, then,
proved to the heirs and to all men that human effort would always be
insufficient in achieving the glory of God.

Has the Law, then, passed away? Has the Law been rendered null
and void? Paul answers this in Romans 3:31,

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be!
On the contrary, we establish the Law.

In other words, we dare not interpret Paul's writings to indicate that
the Law has been put away. Such a view would misunderstand Paul
completely. Rather, Paul is telling us that the Law is the expression
of the mind of God, that man is incapable of achieving its righteous
standard by his own strength and force of will, and that the only path
to perfection is by the unconditional Promise to Abraham that was
put into force at the death of the Testator. The Promise was the Holy
Spirit, Who would work within us to achieve what neither the
schoolmaster nor we ourselves could do.

The Mosaic covenant was an agreement between two parties,
making the blessings of God conditional upon the people's ability
to do "ALL that the Lord has spoken." In contrast, the Promise to
Abraham was made while he was asleep (Gen. 15:12). God
walked alone between the animals that had been cut in half
(Gen. 15:17). Those animals prophesied of the death of the
Testator Himself, and He too died alone to establish an
unconditional "New Covenant" with us.

It was a Covenant that said, "I will put My Laws into their minds,
and I will write them upon their hearts" (Heb. 8:10, quoted from
Jer. 31:33). What Moses the schoolmaster could not do, Jesus
Christ accomplishes by means of the Holy Spirit. It is the same
Law, though appropriate changes were made in its outward
forms to suit the new conditions.

Logabe

logabe said:

Those animals prophesied of the death of the
Testator Himself, and He too died alone to establish an
unconditional "New Covenant" with us.
Logabe

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All of this is excellent. It is sound teaching, filled with right understanding of types and antitypes. The wisdom and truth of God is magnified here. I am still going to try to enlighten you to this one fact, logabe. The Law and the Covenant never included us, the nations. It is the property and privilege of a people, a race, chosen by God to show forth His Glory to all, that are distinct and separate from the rest of mankind. They are the sole object of this dispensation, not us.


AV Ro 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

That we, the Gentiles, have obtained salvation from death and the grave is a gratuity, never spoken of in the "O.T." by any of the Prophets, it was never revealed by anyone but Paul. The Law has nothing to do with anyone but Israel. Nothing is written in our hearts and minds by promise. His faith is what sustains us, not the sure promise of the supernatural endowment in flesh of God's handwriting. We appropriate our change into the image of Christ through death and co-crucifixion with Him. There are no acts of the flesh involved. It is done through faith alone. When He does write His laws in the hearts and minds of man, it will be given to Israel alone, in fleshly bodies, both resurrected and those out of the Tribulation period. It is not going to be awarded to any other nation. Our place and favor from God is far beyond what is contained in that promise.

My intention is to give God glory where He is working and proving Himself. Assigning His merciful acts and benefits that are so unique and special outside the sphere He has revealed causes grief to me. An understanding of the Father and His ways is to show proper reverence, and that is my aim. I am not seeking to dispute or wrangle. You have great insight and understanding of these things, and I am fortified by you.

fivesense

fivesense said:

All of this is excellent. It is sound teaching, filled with right understanding of types and antitypes. The wisdom and truth of God is magnified here. I am still going to try to enlighten you to this one fact, logabe.

The Law and the Covenant never included us, the nations.

Click to expand...

It is the property and privilege of a people, a race, chosen by God to show forth His Glory to all,

that are distinct and separate from the rest of mankind.

Click to expand...

They are the sole object of this dispensation, not us.


AV Ro 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

That we, the Gentiles, have obtained salvation from death and the grave is a gratuity, never spoken of in the "O.T." by any of the Prophets, it was never revealed by anyone but Paul. The Law has nothing to do with anyone but Israel. Nothing is written in our hearts and minds by promise. His faith is what sustains us, not the sure promise of the supernatural endowment in flesh of God's handwriting. We appropriate our change into the image of Christ through death and co-crucifixion with Him. There are no acts of the flesh involved. It is done through faith alone. When He does write His laws in the hearts and minds of man, it will be given to Israel alone, in fleshly bodies, both resurrected and those out of the Tribulation period. It is not going to be awarded to any other nation. Our place and favor from God is far beyond what is contained in that promise.

My intention is to give God glory where He is working and proving Himself. Assigning His merciful acts and benefits that are so unique and special outside the sphere He has revealed causes grief to me. An understanding of the Father and His ways is to show proper reverence, and that is my aim. I am not seeking to dispute or wrangle. You have great insight and understanding of these things, and I am fortified by you.

fivesense

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I would like you to explain the statement that Paul made to
the Galations in Gal. 3:26,

26 For all of you who were baptized into Christ
have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither
slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female;
for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are
Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the
promise.

Now fivesence...you have a lot of explaining to do with
that statement. Let me give you my take on it.

Paul tells us clearly in Gal. 3:19 that the Law of Moses
was "added" (to the Abrahamic Promise) "because of
transgressions." The heirs of the Promise needed
training because they were yet minors in their spiritual
growth. Like all children, they needed a Father to
instruct them in His righteous ways and to teach them
what sin was. In Rom. 3:20 he writes, "through the Law
comes the knowledge of sin."

In other words, God instructed the heirs to know His
mind by way of contrast and by the principle of negativity.
"Thou shalt NOT," He said in the same manner of
instruction given to Adam in regard to the forbidden tree.
We learn from this that worshiping false gods, stealing,
murdering, and coveting are all contrary to the mind
and will of God. We also learn what the Holy Spirit
would write in our hearts and minds through the New
Covenant in order to conform us to the image of God
and the mind of Christ.

But the Law brings judgment upon sin, for it is only
where a Law exists that judgment for its infraction can
justly be applied. Paul knew this, for he wrote in Rom.
5:13, "sin is not imputed when there is no law." God
only holds us accountable for that which is revealed
and legislated. The problem is that because every
heir of God has sinned, the Law could only judge him.
The Law could never grant him Life. The problem is
not that the Law is too righteous, but that man is too
sinful.

Let us not blame the Law for our problem. Who in their
right mind would desire God to lower the standard of His
Will to accommodate our poor abilities? If He had done
this, then the Holy Spirit would have to write an imperfect
Law upon our hearts, Laws that were substandard, and
we would never be found in the image and likeness of
Christ. Would anyone want such a meager inheritance?

Yet the fact remains that the Mosaic Law was given "that
every mouth may be closed, and all the world may
become accountable to God" (Rom. 3:19). First, this tells
us that God holds the entire world accountable to the
Law, not merely Israel, although those afar off were less
accountable. Secondly, this tells us the underlying
purpose of the Law.

Father God laid down the Law in order to be able to teach
His heirs about His righteous character. That Law, once
revealed, made the heirs accountable to it. But the heirs
were yet children and imperfect. They were sinners, so
God held them accountable and judged them for their sin.
In fact, the sin was so severe and persistent that He finally
found it necessary to cast off the house of Israel and later
to cut off the branches of the "evil figs" of Judah.

Paul's question, in light of these judgments, comes in Gal.
3:21, 22,

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of
God? May it never be. For if a law had been
given which was able to impart life, then
righteousness would indeed have been based
on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under
sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ
might be given to those who believe [those who
have faith].

The Law "shut up all men under sin" in order to
force us to realize that no man could ever achieve
righteousness by his own will. His death-ridden
nature, inherited from Adam, made it impossible for
anyone to perform perfectly from birth. It was God's
intent to prove this to us so that we would all be forced
to go through the other door of salvation--the Faith door
of the Promise given to Abraham.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in
custody under the Law, being shut up to
the faith which was later to be revealed.

In other words, the Law arrested us for criminal behavior,
and being held in custody under a life sentence, our
condition was hopeless until the key of Faith opened the
door of our prison.

What has this "tutor" taught us?

1 The righteous character of God, which is our inheritance
2 The sinful character of men
3 The impossibility of sinful men inheriting God's character
by his own zealous will and effort
4 That there must be another way to inherit the promise

25 But now that faith has come, we are no
longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith
in Christ Jesus.

Indeed, when we have learned the four great lessons from
our tutor, we receive the key that unlocks the prison doors
and sets us free from the tutor. Does this mean, then, that
we are now free to sin? Some have taken this to mean that
Faith is a license to sin (violate the Law). We know that this
is not what Paul meant, because he condemned such
thinking in Romans 6:1, saying,

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue
in sin [violating the Law] that grace might
increase? May it never be! How shall we who
died to sin still live in it?

We were not released from the prison of self-righteous
effort just to continue living in sin. Grace did not put
away the Law, as if the righteousness of God suddenly
changed to allow murder, theft, and covetousness. Far
from it. Faith has set us free from the tutor in that we no
longer depend upon our own righteous works as a
precondition to inherit the promise of God.

Jesus Christ performed the Law perfectly as a sinless
man. He did what no other could do. As an "unblemished"
Passover Lamb (Ex. 12:5), He qualified as the antitype
Lamb that would set us free from the House of Bondage.
The original bondage was in Egypt; the greater bondage
that God had in mind was the bondage of sin and our
self-righteous but feeble efforts to achieve the promise
by our own strength.

The Law was not only our taskmaster, but also our
promised inheritance. Under the Old Covenant, the
Law was a righteous tutor but also our prison warden
holding us accountable for our sin. Under the New
Covenant, Jesus Christ brings us the promise of the
Holy Spirit, who takes that same righteous warden-tutor
and places him in our hearts by faith. The Holy Spirit
writes the Law in our hearts, giving us the righteous
character that we could never achieve by our own strength.

All of us have clothed ourselves, not with our own filthy
rags of self-righteousness, but with the righteousness
of Christ. As part of His Body, our righteousness is His,
not ours. His righteousness is imputed to us by faith,
God calling what is NOT as though it were (Rom. 4:17).
The Law's righteous standard has blocked all other
avenues by which we might receive the promise to
Abraham. We now conduct ourselves in conformity to
the will of our Head, Jesus Christ, who not once violated
the Law, though He often violated the traditions of men
which the priests of His day believed to be the correct
interpretation of the Law.

And finally, with the dividing wall discarded, all may now
approach God equally, whether Jew or Greek, slave or
free man, male or female. God's equitableness and
impartiality have been restored. Man's misinterpretations
of the mind of God have been corrected. For that reason,
Paul concludes, if anyone belongs to Christ (as His body),
that person is an heir of the promise, Abraham's seed.

Logabe

Talk to me about the grace of God, of the mercy He has shown us, about the wisdom and intimacy towards us, and I get worked up. This is what you have done for me Logabe. Your strong conviction, command of the the ideal, and ability to convey truth is astounding to me. I have said before and I'll say again, you do me well in spirit. You are a powerhouse.

That you cannot separate yourself from the Jew in the Book, and the new creation you are in Christ is disturbing to my soul. I cannot help you to differentiate between the two, and I earnestly desire to do so. But what I have offered in the past still is true. We are gentiles, wild branches, strangers, aliens, afar off, without God in the world, subserviant to Israel, apart from the promises of God--HAD NOT THE LORD CHOSE PAUL FOR OUR APOSTLE.

It is very simple. It is not at all that complex. It is easily believed if understood, and for most, that is not possible. I was unable to properly divide the word of truth, and never wanted to seek His approval, until this was revealed to me. We are not "Israel, Jewish, the Chosen People, or the Lord's disciples. We are the Body of Christ, a totally separate and different operation of God, found only in Paul's prophetic writings. Simple division, but hard to overcome with orthodox poison oozing out of our pores.

As I read Galations 3, I see Paul addressing two classes, and speaking alternately between them. It is not difficult for me to see this, as my eyes have been opened to the truth of the two evangels. If there is only one Gospel, the circumcision evangel, then I would be unable to apprehend what is said in Galations. But, contrary to orthodoxy, there are two distinct evangels, as the Scriptures testifiy to, the basis of which is outlined in the Galatian letter.

I am not a Circumcisionist. I am of the uncircumcision, inheriting the allotment of Christ according to a promise of God, just as Abraham inherited his place out of a promise of God. It is God's promise (verse 29), not my participation, that matters and forms the basis of what I have entered into.

Death has involved me in the condemnation of sin, and all have sinned. But, as a Gentile, I have never been under the Law, the ordinances, never received the oracles, the legislations, am not a part of a priesthood, race, or nation. I have no right to lay claim to anything they have experienced as God's demonstration to all. I am part of the elect and justified body of Christ, and am a new creation that far exceeds all that the Jew is being promised.

I hope this advances our communion.

fivesense

ancoraimpara said:

In a recent discussion at Bible study we considered which of the 600+ laws from the Books of Law are applicable to Christians. Many felt that only the 10 commandments applied. The more I study the lessons in the Gospel of Matthew, the more I think perhaps we are subject to most of the laws - excluding blood sacrifice laws which were fulfilled by the great sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

You mean the 9 Commandments?!