Hell Fire

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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"Everlasting fire" is "everlasting fire". Those who spend eternity there won't care what you call it.

The difference is I care what God calls the lake of fire, not what you call the lake of fire. You want to deny what God calls the lake of fire, so be it. The scriptures show us that the lake of fire is, it's the second death, that's what God calls it. Since Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire, neither one a person so neither can feel pain.
 

kcnalp

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The difference is I care what God calls the lake of fire, not what you call the lake of fire. You want to deny what God calls the lake of fire, so be it. The scriptures show us that the lake of fire is, it's the second death, that's what God calls it. Since Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire, neither one a person so neither can feel pain.
Even your NWT says you're wrong.

Revelation 20:7-10 (NKJV)
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Even your NWT says you're wrong.

Revelation 20:7-10 (NKJV)
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The lake of fire is a symbolic place that “burns with fire and sulfur,” also described as “the second death.” (Revelation 20:14,15) Unrepentant sinners, the Devil, and even death and the Grave (or, Hades) are thrown into it. The inclusion of a spirit creature and also of death and Hades, all of which cannot be affected by fire, indicates that this lake is a symbol, not of everlasting torment, but of everlasting destruction.—Re 19:20; 20:14, 15; 21:8.
 

kcnalp

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The lake of fire is a symbolic place that “burns with fire and sulfur,”
It doesn't say "symbolic". You're making that up.
, not of everlasting torment,
Oh really?
"And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Even your NWT says you're wrong.
but of everlasting destruction.—Re 19:20; 20:14, 15; 21:8.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NKJV)
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Which NEVER ends.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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It doesn't say "symbolic". You're making that up.

Oh really?
"And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Even your NWT says you're wrong.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NKJV)
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Which NEVER ends.

And you don't listen to revelation 20:14,15 which says that the lake of fire is The Second Death and that Death and Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. I don't believe that Death or Hades are persons so neither Death or Hades can feel pain. That means that whatever happens to Death and Hades when thrown into the lake of fire happens to anyone or anything else that's thrown into the lake of fire. Do you believe Hades and Death continue to exist and feel pain? If you do, that's completely unreasonable.
 

kcnalp

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And you don't listen to revelation 20:14,15 which says that the lake of fire is The Second Death and that Death and Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. I don't believe that Death or Hades are persons so neither Death or Hades can feel pain. That means that whatever happens to Death and Hades when thrown into the lake of fire happens to anyone or anything else that's thrown into the lake of fire. Do you believe Hades and Death continue to exist and feel pain? If you do, that's completely unreasonable.
"Death" does not mean "cease to exist". Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Rev 20 is referring to nations / people, not just the Devil? I never said "Hades and Death" feel pain. Why are you? The "everlasting fire" will be filled with people who don't believe in it.
Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Couldn't be any clearer!
"And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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"Death" does not mean "cease to exist". Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Rev 20 is referring to nations / people, not just the Devil? I never said "Hades and Death" feel pain. Why are you? The "everlasting fire" will be filled with people who don't believe in it.
Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Couldn't be any clearer!
"And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I didn't say I believed Death or Hades could feel pain, I asked if you did, and that if you did believe that Death and Hades felt pain that would be unreasonable.
If you believe death doesn't mean, "cease to exist" then you're teaching man has an immortal Soul which nowhere in the scriptures it teaches man has an immortal Soul. You're also teaching people that God is a liar and Adam didn't actually die, when God said to Adam, "In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” Before Adam was taken from the dust of the ground, he didn't exist.
 

kcnalp

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I didn't say I believed Death or Hades could feel pain, I asked if you did, and that if you did believe that Death and Hades felt pain that would be unreasonable.
You are so confused!
If you believe death doesn't mean, "cease to exist" then you're teaching man has an immortal Soul which nowhere in the scriptures it teaches man has an immortal Soul.
Never heard of "everlasting fire"? Jesus mentioned it several times. How about "outer darkness"?
2 Peter 2:17 (NKJV)
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
You're also teaching people that God is a liar and Adam didn't actually die, when God said to Adam, "In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” Before Adam was taken from the dust of the ground, he didn't exist.
Now you're changing the subject like all JW's do. Is there anything in the Bible that JW's don't try to rewrite?

From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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You are so confused!

Never heard of "everlasting fire"? Jesus mentioned it several times. How about "outer darkness"?
2 Peter 2:17 (NKJV)
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Now you're changing the subject like all JW's do. Is there anything in the Bible that JW's don't try to rewrite?

From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

No you were the one saying death doesn't mean, "cease to exist" I was reminding you the punishment God sentenced Adam, which was the punishment of death. Since you are saying death doesn't mean, "cease to exist" you're denying scripture again.
 

kcnalp

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No you were the one saying death doesn't mean, "cease to exist" I was reminding you the punishment God sentenced Adam, which was the punishment of death. Since you are saying death doesn't mean, "cease to exist" you're denying scripture again.
Are you saying Adam ceased to exist? I don't think you know what you're saying.

Belief in the "everlasting fire" is not required for residency therein.
Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Are you saying Adam ceased to exist? I don't think you know what you're saying.

Belief in the "everlasting fire" is not required for residency therein.
Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Ceasing to exist is exactly what death means. Like I said in the case of Adam God told Adam, after he had eaten from the forbidden tree, that he would return to the ground, for out it you were taken for dust you are and to dust you will return. So Adam didn't exist before God took dust from the ground. Also God didn't tell Adam he would go somewhere else other than the dust of the ground from which he was taken.
Eternal life isn't a punishment it's a reward for the righteous or faithful. You're trying to say the unfaithful live for eternity too, but that their eternal life is living in eternal pain.
What you can't accept is that death, "ceasing to exist" is an eternal punishment.
When a person or persons who cease to exist such as Satan and his demons and all those of humanity who choose to follow Satan, how can they hurt anyone anymore if they don't exist. God isn't some person who gets off on torturing a person. Since God brought all things and everyone into existence, why would God allow those who are evil or unfaithful to continue to exist and torture them for eternity, when he can simply destroy them out of existence.
 

Brakelite

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didn't say they will be "burnt up".
No, you can't because it contradicts your theory. But Jesus did... The Holy Spirit did... And the prophets did which to my mind is a majority opinion by the real Supreme Court.
KJV Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV Hebrews 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

How can you argue against such a resounding declaration coming from such a high authority?
 

kcnalp

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Ceasing to exist is exactly what death means.
No it doesn't. So, when you die you will cease to exist?
Like I said in the case of Adam God told Adam, after he had eaten from the forbidden tree, that he would return to the ground, for out it you were taken for dust you are and to dust you will return. So Adam didn't exist before God took dust from the ground. Also God didn't tell Adam he would go somewhere else other than the dust of the ground from which he was taken.
Eternal life isn't a punishment it's a reward for the righteous or faithful. You're trying to say the unfaithful live for eternity too, but that their eternal life is living in eternal pain.
I agree with God. You don't.
From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
What you can't accept is that death, "ceasing to exist" is an eternal punishment.
Then there would be absolutely no need to call it "eternal" as the NT says several times.
When a person or persons who cease to exist such as Satan and his demons and all those of humanity who choose to follow Satan, how can they hurt anyone anymore if they don't exist.
NWT disagrees with you. From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
God isn't some person who gets off on torturing a person.
"Gets off"? lol
Since God brought all things and everyone into existence, why would God allow those who are evil or unfaithful to continue to exist and torture them for eternity, when he can simply destroy them out of existence.
From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
NOT "cease to exist"!
 
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Taken

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Firstly, I would contend that this parable or allegory is actually a judgment against Israel. At the end of the parable of the vine dressers in Mathew 21 Jesus told the chief priests and elders that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. This parable, Lazarus and the Rich Man, is also a judgment against them. It's drawn from four Old Testament prophecies. Duet. 32, Is. 28 and 50, and the book of Malachi. From these prophecies Jesus weaves this story together. The prophecies are about the destruction of the priesthood in AD. 70.

If you'd like I can give you a link to two audios that explain it in great detail. A lot more than I can do on a forum.

No thanks.
Jesus Himself reveals important Facts ABOUT the understanding OF Mysteries, that Expounds on the Mysteries Already Revealed.

John 14.
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mark 4:
[2] And he taught them many things [/B] by parables, [/B] and said unto them in his doctrine,

Matt 13
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Luke.8
[10] And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Jesus' WORDS out of His Mouth -
He is the TRUTH.
He Speaks TRUTH.
He reveals HIS DOCTRINE.
He Reveals TRUTHS About MYSTERIES.

MYSTERY REVEALED: in the Beginning.
God CREATED;
• WHO- man KIND of thing.
• WHAT- male And female
• WHEN- 6th Day
• WHY- Gods Pleasure
• WHERE- Earth (outside of Gods Garden).
• NAMED- male and female; Adam
• Mankind of Thing- Bodily FORM, out of the Earth- GIVEN LIFE- SHALL CEASE Living- Die- RETURN to the Earth.

CREATION of man a Mystery? No.
Fully Told to man.
Man has Freewill TO Believe what knowledge was Revealed TO Him...or Not Believe it.

MAKING of a man a Mystery? No.
God CREATED a man-KIND of Thing- and THEN immediately- MADE- His CREATED thing- "something" "MORE".
• WHO- Man-KIND of thing.
...BODILY Form - male and female
...DUST of the Earth
...NAMED Adam
• WHAT- MADE that FORM ALIVE
...Gods BREATH.
• WHEN- immediately AFTER it was FORM-ED.
• WHY- For Gods Pleasure.
• HOW- Gods BREATH, BLOWN INTO the Formed man.

MYSTERY-
• Mankind of thing, called A LIVING SOUL
MYSTERY revealed-
• The Mankind of THING, "NAMED" ADAM-
...IS and HAS (possessive) ...
• A Formed Body...with ITS OWN Life- BLOOD
...ITS LIFE, SHALL Die.
• The SOUL in the Body- IS Given- BY God.
• THE SOUL- Has ITS OWN LIFE- Gods BREATH
• The Body- possessively- Belongs to the man.
• A Man Can KILL his OWN BODILY Form.
• The Soul- possessively- Belongs TO God- Called By the Same Name, as the man's Bodily Form.
• A man CAN NOT KILL Gods Soul.
• A man CAN "Corrupt" Gods Soul (that was given by God, INTO, that man's Body).

MYSTERY:
What Becomes of Gods SOUL IN a man-
WHEN the Man's Formed BODILY LIFE (BLOOD) ceases being ALIVE?

MYSTERY Revealed:
Gods Soul, with Gods Breath OF His LIFE, WITHIN an individual man's Identifiable NAME,
DEPARTES / LEAVES, "that" man's BODY, as its BLOOD LIFE is Dying.

MYSTERY:
WHERE does GOD'S Soul, Identified BY a Man's NAME, GO?

MYSTERY Revealed:
Escorted: by Gods Angel's TO:
A Place of Comfort- WITH God.
OR ...
Sent: TO a Place of Discomfort- WITHOUT God.

STILL ^^ a Mystery TO Some- for example;
(some claiming the soul DIES and is buried with the Body) <--- No.

MYSTERY-
WHAT "exactly" IS A "SOUL", With God Breath of Life "IN IT?"

MYSTERY: Revealed.
What a man CALLS "SENSES"...
The Specific BODY parts OF A CREATED Man
That FUNCTION, WITH GODS, Breath of Life.

A Man, Body of Dust..
HAS Eyes- (see)
HAS Ears- (hear)
HAS Flesh Skin- (touch/feel)
HAS A Nose- (smell)
HAS A Mouth- (speech)

The Man's Body Dies-
Eyes, Ears, Flesh, Nose, Mouth- Dies.
• A DEAD BODY-
Sees nothing-
Hears nothing-
Feels nothing-
Smells nothing-
Speaks nothing-

Listen- WHO? EVERY man.
Not Exclusive to- Jews, Tribes, Israel or Gentiles. --->

Luke 16:
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 16: 19-31
Clearly Revealed in Gen. and Clearly Verified in Luke.
• Body's and Souls have the Same Name Identity.
• Living souls Departed Out of Dead and Buried Body's ... Are escorted by Gods Angel's, TO Comfort.
• Living souls "of any man", Departed Out of Dead and Buried Body's, having Rejected Gods Truth...experience Discomfort and Separation FROM God.
• The LIFE of Gods Breath, Remains IN a Soul Departed Out of A Dead Body.
The Living Soul, (identified with A man's NAME), Departed OUT of a Dead Body...
CONTINUES:
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling
Smelling
Speaking
VIA "Gods Breath of Life", REMAINING IN the Living Soul "Departed" OUT of a Dead and buried Body.

Luke 16: 19-31 Reveals Mysteries ABOUT a Living Soul Departed OUT of a Dead and Buried Body.
• ITS Senses with Gods Life Continues,
beyond, BODILY (BLOOD) Death.
• Departed Souls that Reject God, and Gods Revealed TRUTH...experience "tormenting Discomfort", without God.
• Departed Souls that Embrace God, and Gods Revealed Truth...experience "Comfort", with God.

And A Most Revealing; Fact IS:
WHERE a Departed SOUL "WILL GO"...
IN Comfort, WITH God;
OR
IN Discomfort, WITHOUT God;
IS Expressly Decided by the man's Freewill Choice.....
WHILE the Living Soul IS "IN" a man's (Blood Living Body).

So no, I do not agree Luke 16: 19-31, is about a Judgement Against ISRAEL, but rather; according to Scripture;
• a Revealing of Knowledge ABOUT the Soul;
CONSEQUENCES-
• WHAT a faithful Departed soul (of ANY man) Shall experience.
• WHAT a UN-faithful Departed soul (of any man) Shall experience.
• WHEN a Living Soul, (of ANY man) Faithfulness OR unfaithfulness IS Established.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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The difference is I care what God calls the lake of fire, not what you call the lake of fire. You want to deny what God calls the lake of fire, so be it. The scriptures show us that the lake of fire is, it's the second death, that's what God calls it. Since Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire, neither one a person so neither can feel pain.


No mystery.
Body's become Dead, return to the Earth.
Living souls depart Dead Body's.
...Saved Living souls, in Comfort
...Unsaved Living souls, in Discomfort.

Dead Body's and Living souls- are (stationed/ occupying), particular places, (imprisoned of sorts,) they do not Leave their (station/place), Until God intervenes and
• Gods Power Raises up Both...A Body AND Soul ...
• To Face Judgement-
Judgement- determined BY Evidence.
Evidence- is recorded in Records.
Records- are God Books, kept in Heaven.

Lake of Fire is A Pit in the Lowest part (center) of the Earth and IS the final disposal PLACE OF:
• Living Angel Spirits who Rejected God.
• (lifeless) Body's of men that Rejected God.
• (lifeless) Souls of men that Rejected God.
• Death
• Hell

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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No it doesn't. So, when you die you will cease to exist?

I agree with God. You don't.
From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Then there would be absolutely no need to call it "eternal".

NWT disagrees with you. From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

"Gets off"? lol

From your NWT: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
NOT "cease to exist"!

The mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31. The word torment in other words just doesn't mean causing physical pain such as torturing someone.
 

kcnalp

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The mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31. The word torment in other words just doesn't mean causing physical pain such as torturing someone.
You forgot something. They are in the fire, forever and ever. Put your hand on your hot stove burner. You reckon you will feel "physical pain"? You're being utterly ridiculous.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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No mystery.
Body's become Dead, return to the Earth.
Living souls depart Dead Body's.
...Saved Living souls, in Comfort
...Unsaved Living souls, in Discomfort.


Dead Body's and Living souls- are (stationed/ occupying), particular places, (imprisoned of sorts,) they do not Leave their (station/place), Until God intervenes and
• Gods Power Raises up Both...A Body AND Soul ...
• To Face Judgement-
Judgement- determined BY Evidence.
Evidence- is recorded in Records.
Records- are God Books, kept in Heaven.

Lake of Fire is A Pit in the Lowest part (center) of the Earth and IS the final disposal PLACE OF:
• Living Angel Spirits who Rejected God.
• (lifeless) Body's of men that Rejected God.
• (lifeless) Souls of men that Rejected God.
• Death
• Hell

Glory to God,
Taken

I disagree with what you said here for so many scriptural reasons. For one thing the scriptures don't say we have souls the scriptures say we are souls. So when you talk about humans with the exclusion of the flesh and blood as though soul and flesh and blood are separate you're always going to be scripturally wrong.
Also when God was speaking of Adams punishment telling him that, "in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," when God used the word "thou"(You) when speaking to Adam regarding his punishment he wasn't speaking to only part of Adam as you are trying to say, God was speaking to the whole person Adam. So you saying, "body's become dead, return to earth, living souls depart dead body's," isn't scriptural. Before God took dust from the ground and created Adam he didn't exist, so when God said to Adam, " dust you are and dust you will return," Adam would go back into non-existence. Death means you cease to exist. The only place you truly exist is in God's memory if he has judged you worthy of a resurrection.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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You forgot something. They are in the fire, forever and ever. Put your hand on your hot stove burner. You reckon you will feel "physical pain"? You're being utterly ridiculous.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Because Death and Hades can feel pain, right? Do you honestly believe Death and Hades are intelligent beings that can feel pain? Whatever happens to Death and Hades when thrown into the lake of fire, the same thing happens to anything and everyone else that's thrown into the lake of fire.
 

kcnalp

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Because Death and Hades can feel pain, right? Do you honestly believe Death and Hades are intelligent beings that can feel pain?
You're the only one saying that. Read your posts. Stop trying to put your ridiculous comment on me.
Whatever happens to Death and Hades when thrown into the lake of fire, the same thing happens to anything and everyone else that's thrown into the lake of fire.
So when you die you will "cease to exist"? Oh my.
Revelation 20:12-15 (NKJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Have you ever read the Bible?