Age-during vs Eternal

[Madad21]

2 Corinthians 4:18 in the Youngs Literal Translation reads
"we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during".

But in most other versions it reads;

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal".

The words; Eternal, Age during and Age-abiding in the New Testament come from the same Greek root word "Aiōnios"

There is a popular understanding amongst some that the greek "aionios" is not so much to do
with the translation of aionios as ‘age–abiding’ or ‘age-during’, but the insistence
that ‘age-abiding’ means that which is strictly limited or temporary.

But what upsets the applecart is Paul's use of "aionios" in the above scripture, which seems to clearly point to the word aionios meaning eternal in direct contrast to what he says are things seen and temporary. He uses "aionios" to describe things not seen and eternal.

This brings in to question the common use of this word "aionios" throughout the NT.

​Is it eternal or temporary
What supports "aionios" as Temporary and what for Eternal?
Is it meant to be eternal in some places but temporary in others?
Is the PS4 really better the the PS3?
Are Penny and Leonard going to get married?
and why is that man staring at me?

Questions, so many questions.

 

[lukethreesix]

A few scriptures off the top of my head come to mind that if "forever", "everlasting", or "eternal" actually mean what we've been told they mean, it makes no sense.
First, Jonah 2:6, says he was under the waves FOREVER! (I thought it was only 3 days?)
Then there is Jude 6, where angels are kept in "everlasting" chains (I thought only until judgement?)
And Jude 7, here he is recalling Sodoms "eternal" fire (I thought Sodom gets restored in Ez 16:54?)
Ask yourself, can something "suffer eternal vengeance from God" and be restored? (Jude 7)
Or can someone be in hell forever, but then be released? (Jonah 2:2,6 KJV)
Without even looking into the Greek and Hebrew we can see scripture interpreting scripture.
What does Webster say about Eternal: without beginning without end. Therefore anything created cannot be eternal since it in fact had a beginning. Buy a Rotherham's Emphasized Bible and save yourselves from a lot of confusion and deceit.
For 1500 years we have been robbed of the true meaning of these words...and sadly enough most pastors teach false doctrines unknowingly. I'm glad these words are finally getting out in the open and investigated. Study, study, study....
If forever means eternity, then how can you add an eternity to an eternity? (Forever and ever)???
Olam in the OT means perpetual, a time unknown. Same as aionios in the NT. Aion strictly means an age. All these though are no doubt TIME! With a beginning and an end.
Let's look at 1 Chron 28:9, "the Lord WILL cast off forever"
Then we have Lam 3:31, "the Lord WILL NOT cast off forever"
Contradiction? Nope! Chron's "forever" is the Hebrew word "al" meaning "a duration". Lam's "forever" is "olam" meaning perpetually.
You see? The Lord might cast off for a time or an age ("al", a duration) but God will never cast off age after age after age ("olam" perpetually). God is so good!

 

[Madad21]

Jonah 2:6
New International Version (NIV)



6 To the roots of the mountains(A) I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, Lord my God,
brought my life up from the pit.(B)

I haven't done a ton of study into the account of Jonah, but what I do know is that what happened in the belly of the whale was representative of Christ's death burial and resurrection. (3 days in the belly of the whale) To him being in the belly of a whale might feel like being buried forever especially because he wouldn't have known at the time how long he would spend in there or if in fact he would ever get out, this may have been death to him, obviously not knowing any better. I personally would find five seconds in a whale feeling like an eternity.
In Jonahs mind he had died and gone down into the ground, it would have been only afterward in recalling the ordeal he spoke prophetically through the Spirit echoing the work Christ would do on the cross.
If we had died and been put in the ground without Christ it certainly would have been forever, but here he echoes resurrection saying prophetically "But Lord my God brought my life up from the pit"

 

[lukethreesix]

If forever can just mean "feels like" to Jonah, why can't the rest of the "forever's" just "feel like" as well?
Jonah's forever is the Hebrew Olam, he was there for a TIME of unknown duration, day after day, night after night, perpetual. This is exactly what the OT olam and the NT aionios mean, NOT "eternal" as we think of it.
"Everlasting" and "Eternal" are mistranslations (yes I know its hard to translate accurately between languages, especially ancient to modern) but using such words that mean without time to interpret words having to do with time is very misleading to say the least.
OK, now let's look at Cor 4:18, a plastic spoon is temporal, it is not made to last "forever", its here today and gone tomorrow. However, a silver spoon is age-abiding/age-during, it is made to last "forever", day after day, year after year, even generation after generation it remains. Is the silver spoon "eternal"? Did the silver spoon always exist or will it always exist? NO! But it is EVER-lasting (age-lasting/age-abiding/age-during). This temporal like cars and football games we do not "look to" these things, but things that are age-abiding like forgiveness, reconciliation, feeding the poor, scripture, God, these are things that will ENDURE TIME (age-during). Look to these, not things temporal.
Hope this helps? Makes sense to me....

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Maybe someone like retrobyter can tell us all about the use of the word eternal

I have usually seen it as "for ever and ever without end" .... or "a place where there is no time" ..... eg: God is eternal .... we will have eternal life with God some day.

 

[lukethreesix]

Yes Arnie, God and ONLY God is eternal. NOTHING and NO ONE else is or can be eternal. ONLY GOD has ever and will ever always exist. The rest of us are created being, NOT eternal beings. Christ taught us to be humble, and I think its time to start humbling ourselves and stop putting ourselves equal with God as "eternal beings". We are NOT, He IS.

 

[Madad21]

If forever can just mean "feels like" to Jonah, why can't the rest of the "forever's" just "feel like" as well?
Jonah's forever is the Hebrew Olam, he was there for a TIME of unknown duration, day after day, night after night, perpetual. This is exactly what the OT olam and the NT aionios mean, NOT "eternal" as we think of it.
"Everlasting" and "Eternal" are mistranslations (yes I know its hard to translate accurately between languages, especially ancient to modern) but using such words that mean without time to interpret words having to do with time is very misleading to say the least.
OK, now let's look at Cor 4:18, a plastic spoon is temporal, it is not made to last "forever", its here today and gone tomorrow. However, a silver spoon is age-abiding/age-during, it is made to last "forever", day after day, year after year, even generation after generation it remains. Is the silver spoon "eternal"? Did the silver spoon always exist or will it always exist? NO! But it is EVER-lasting (age-lasting/age-abiding/age-during). This temporal like cars and football games we do not "look to" these things, but things that are age-abiding like forgiveness, reconciliation, feeding the poor, scripture, God, these are things that will ENDURE TIME (age-during). Look to these, not things temporal.
Hope this helps? Makes sense to me....

I don't feel that it is a mistranslation in the sense of the topic, for example he talks about going in to a "Pit"

"But you, Lord my God, brought my life up from the pit"
The "Pit" is otherwise referred to as the grave or Sheol in the Hebrew.
Whats important about his story is that Jonah ended up where he was in that whale as a direct result of his disobedience to God when God told him “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.” (Jonah 3:2)

Now I can agree with you that if he was in fact in going to his grave as he certainly thought he was, that yes it would only be for a short time, but as we also know from Revelation those who go to the grave in sin rise only to be judged and are then cast into the fire with Satan.

So his version of eternity in this case would be correct, because he would not be raised to life for his disobedience but to die.

If anything the first death in this case would only be "Age-abiding" in theory.




.

OK, now let's look at Cor 4:18, a plastic spoon is temporal, it is not made to last "forever", its here today and gone tomorrow. However, a silver spoon is age-abiding/age-during, it is made to last "forever", day after day, year after year, even generation after generation it remains. Is the silver spoon "eternal"? Did the silver spoon always exist or will it always exist? NO! But it is EVER-lasting (age-lasting/age-abiding/age-during). This temporal like cars and football games we do not "look to" these things, but things that are age-abiding like forgiveness, reconciliation, feeding the poor, scripture, God, these are things that will ENDURE TIME (age-during). Look to these, not things temporal.
Hope this helps? Makes sense to me....

Here is the flow and context of Paul’s message
Paul establishes the truth of our temporal existence and then answers it with its Eternal counterpart or reward, you will notice the pattern.

Here is the verse in full

2 Corinthians 4:16-18
Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Here is the pattern
“Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.”
Though we are Age-abiding (Not physically eternal)
Christ is eternal and we are renewed through his eternal spirit (Not age-abiding)

“ For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all”
Here again, Our troubles (age-abiding) achieve for us eternal glory (not age abiding)

“So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen,”
Seen=age-abiding (temporary) unseen =not age-abiding (Eternal)

Since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.


Peace mike

 

[lukethreesix]

I disagree, just because something is unseen does not make it eternal. God is not the only thing we cannot see. And just because something is age-abiding does not make it temporal. For many things we do/see will last throughout the ages.

 

[Madad21]

I disagree, just because something is unseen does not make it eternal. God is not the only thing we cannot see. And just because something is age-abiding does not make it temporal. For many things we do/see will last throughout the ages.

This is so disappointing man.
You really have to read the scripture and see the context, which was what I was trying to show you,
honestly I am not purposely trying to prove you wrong, I took the scripture and studied the heck out of it, to see if your silver spoon analogy worked in the case of it as you presented.
if your at work and you dont have time, I dont mind waiting, Im in no rush, I am finding this topic fascinating.
I would assume you would at the very least read and try and understand what I had found before poo pooing it.
Did you see the pattern I was showing you, can you at least look at what I did objectively, even if you dont want to agree, I dont care.
The pattern and the context is clear in the case of this scripture, its so obvious it jumps straight off the page.
And if you disagree tell me why my explanation of that scripture doesnt hold up, by showing me why.
Because when you don't do that its an obvious indication you didn't read it properly.
Im not trying to prove you wrong, stop acting like I am. lets be grown ups and really get into the nuts and bolts.
Otherwise isn't this just a waste of your time?


Now you said
"And just because something is age-abiding does not make it temporal. For many things we do/see will last throughout the ages."

If age-abiding doesn't make it temporal, then it must be everlasting and if it is neither then it must be non-existent what other possible alternative is there?

Age-abiding is either limited (temporal) or it is everlasting making it Eternal and not abiding to an age.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

In many ways there are even deeper meanings to the word eternal ...... in the case of God , we humans , including Moses want to ask God .... "Who are you" .... "where did you come from" etc ...... but the very nature of our inquiry wrongly assumes God came from somewhere .... which requires the element of time

The only way God could answer the question was by saying

" I AM " (or) ... " I AM WHO I AM " ... with the emphasis on " AM "

God could not even say ... "I have always been" ... because the word "been" requires a time element for it to work. God is eternal , and there is no time in eternity.

Even Moses described God as " HE IS " with emphasis on "IS"

Later when Moses was telling the Israelites he described God as ... "HE IS WHO HE IS" ... which is roughly translated as YHWH which we English pronounce as JEHOVAH

 

[Madad21]

In many ways there are even deeper meanings to the word eternal ...... in the case of God , we humans , including Moses want to ask God .... "Who are you" .... "where did you come from" etc ...... but the very nature of our inquiry wrongly assumes God came from somewhere .... which requires the element of time

The only way God could answer the question was by saying

" I AM " (or) ... " I AM WHO I AM " ... with the emphasis on " AM "

God could not even say ... "I have always been" ... because the word "been" requires a time element for it to work. God is eternal , and there is no time in eternity.

Even Moses described God as " HE IS " with emphasis on "IS"

Later when Moses was telling the Israelites he described God as ... "HE IS WHO HE IS" ... which is roughly translated as YHWH which we English pronounce as JEHOVAH

All true brother.

Imagine if you were one of the Israelites who asked him who this God was that sent him, and he answered "He is,who He is"
Wouldnt you say "Fine, dont tell me then!"

 

[lukethreesix]

I am at work yes, and yes I will break it down for you tonight the best I can. I do read your post and take what you say seriously.
The thing about Eternal is it must not have a beginning, that's key to understanding the word. Ever-lasting just means that whatever it is last UNTIL its purpose is fulfilled. With punishment: age-abiding punishment will last UNTIL correction and repentance comes. Then it ends. It could be 3 days as with Jonah, or it could last 1,000 years.

Even the reign of Christ comes to an end (even though we say its eternal/everlasting), but its age-abiding in that His reign will last UNTIL He has brought all things, including himself, subject to the Father and God becomes All in All (read. 1 Co 15:19-28). I believe anything with a beginning will have an end.
Unless we are talking about God the Holy Spirit (the Father), eternity is a myth. How long you will last depends on the purpose God has created you for. Yahweh/Yahshua was conceived by the Holy Spirit, He is the "First Born" the ONLY begotten, three FIRST and the LAST. How can Christ be last if we last as long as He last?

 

[Madad21]

I am at work yes, and yes I will break it down for you tonight the best I can. I do read your post and take what you say seriously.
The thing about Eternal is it must not have a beginning, that's key to understanding the word. Ever-lasting just means that whatever it is last UNTIL its purpose is fulfilled. With punishment: age-abiding punishment will last UNTIL correction and repentance comes. Then it ends. It could be 3 days as with Jonah, or it could last 1,000 years.

Even the reign of Christ comes to an end (even though we say its eternal/everlasting), but its age-abiding in that His reign will last UNTIL He has brought all things, including himself, subject to the Father and God becomes All in All (read. 1 Co 15:19-28). I believe anything with a beginning will have an end.
Unless we are talking about God the Holy Spirit (the Father), eternity is a myth. How long you will last depends on the purpose God has created you for. Yahweh/Yahshua was conceived by the Holy Spirit, He is the "First Born" the ONLY begotten, three FIRST and the LAST. How can Christ be last if we last as long as He last?

Ok so age abiding no matter how long is temporary, not eternal.
Eternal and age abiding do not have the same meaning. It is either infinite without end which IS eternal or it has a end like you said making it age abiding...right?

I look forward to seeing your comments on my breakdown of Paul scripture tonight, which for me is in about 12 hours or more.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Did a quick word search

Young's has "eternal" 2 times ...
KJV has "eternal" 47 times ...
NIV has "eternal" 79 times ..
Young's has "age-during" 174 times in the bible

My head hurts

It would take some sleuthing to figure all this out

 

[lukethreesix]

Mad, you said: "But what upsets the applecart is Paul's use of "aionios" in the above scripture, which seems to clearly point to the word aionios meaning eternal in direct contrast to what he says are things seen and temporary. He uses "aionios" to describe things not seen and eternal."

I don't see where he uses aionios anywhere but for eternal? Please give me the other place he uses aionios for things temporal? I only see aionios used once? I don't see it anywhere else in those 3 verses?
Arnie, you said " Young's has "eternal" 2 times ...
KJV has "eternal" 47 times ...
NIV has "eternal" 79 times ..
Young's has "age-during" 174 times in the bible
My head hurts "

The reason for this is YLT is more consistant with its translation of olam and aion/aionios. The KJV and NIV use a variety of words for translating one word. The YLT uses one word to translate one word. YLT is better than most but it can't hold a candle to the EBR. The EBR is hands-down the most accurate bible in the English laugage. Rotherham didn't play games trying to make it "easier to understand" he just translated it as it is.

while I wait for Mad to give me that other word, I want to ask you both a question: If one suffers eternal veangence by God with fire, can they be restored after?

I also want to ask: why is Jonah's "olam" only 3 days, but the "olam" spoke by Daniel in 12:2 must be eternity? It makes no sense! Thats why its important to have a Bible that is consistant with its translation. A lot of bibles people read are more interpretations than they are translations...Notice Daniel 12:2 is what Jesus is quoting in Matt 25:46. Olam, as we see in Jonah 2:6, does NOT mean eternal/everlasting. This is how it reads in the EBR, "and these will go into age-abiding correction, but the righteous to life age-abiding." WOW! big difference between age-abiding correction and everlasting punishment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLK5l77SvK0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Madad21]

Mad, you said: "But what upsets the applecart is Paul's use of "aionios" in the above scripture, which seems to clearly point to the word aionios meaning eternal in direct contrast to what he says are things seen and temporary. He uses "aionios" to describe things not seen and eternal."

I don't see where he uses aionios anywhere but for eternal? Please give me the other place he uses aionios for things temporal? I only see aionios used once? I don't see it anywhere else in those 3 verses?
Arnie, you said " Young's has "eternal" 2 times ...
KJV has "eternal" 47 times ...
NIV has "eternal" 79 times ..
Young's has "age-during" 174 times in the bible
My head hurts "

The reason for this is YLT is more consistant with its translation of olam and aion/aionios. The KJV and NIV use a variety of words for translating one word. The YLT uses one word to translate one word. YLT is better than most but it can't hold a candle to the EBR. The EBR is hands-down the most accurate bible in the English laugage. Rotherham didn't play games trying to make it "easier to understand" he just translated it as it is.

while I wait for Mad to give me that other word, I want to ask you both a question: If one suffers eternal veangence by God with fire, can they be restored after?

I also want to ask: why is Jonah's "olam" only 3 days, but the "olam" spoke by Daniel in 12:2 must be eternity? It makes no sense! Thats why its important to have a Bible that is consistant with its translation. A lot of bibles people read are more interpretations than they are translations...Notice Daniel 12:2 is what Jesus is quoting in Matt 25:46. Olam, as we see in Jonah 2:6, does NOT mean eternal/everlasting. This is how it reads in the EBR, "and these will go into age-abiding correction, but the righteous to life age-abiding." WOW! big difference between age-abiding correction and everlasting punishment.

Paul in that scripture uses the word "αἰώνια-aionios" to describe what is unseen as being Eternal, right?

where as in the YLT the same word αἰώνια-aionios is translated "age-during, which is in essence limited time" in the same place.


My point was, that if αἰώνια-aionios is "Age-during or age-abiding, which is by your definition temporary, limited to so many days, years or generations or ages" then how come he used it in direct contrast to his earlier statement about things seen as being temporary?

Why would Paul tell us not to fix our eyes on what is temporary, but instead fix our sights on what is also temporary.

right?, it doesnt make sense does it?

Do you see what Im trying to say?

for his teaching to make sense, the word αἰώνια-aionios would have to mean Eternal as in never ending (Infinite, without end) not age-abiding.

this was the distinction I was making


"aionios"
Definition

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aionios.html

Textus Receptus
μὴ σκοπούντων ἡμῶν τὰ βλεπόμενα ἀλλὰ τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα τὰ γὰρβλεπόμενα πρόσκαιρα τὰ δὲ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια (αἰώνια-aionios) Eternal

NIV
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.(αἰώνια-aionios)


YLT
we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during".(αἰώνια-aionios)

Thats why its important to have a Bible that is consistant with its translation. A lot of bibles people read are more interpretations than they are translations...

Can I ask which translation you use, so I can reference it to.

Peace mike

 

[lukethreesix]

I've told you, I use the Rotherham's Emphasized (EBR). Go back, read what I wrote again and watch the video I posted. I think your questions will be answered....

 

[Madad21]

I've told you, I use the Rotherham's Emphasized (EBR). Go back, read what I wrote again and watch the video I posted. I think your questions will be answered....

Im sorry I missed your referral to the EBR, I had just gotten up and only just noticed you added that bit to your last post, I read it with tired eyes which was why I didnt answer all of the comment you added until I was awake and ready too.


All of my arguments thus far have been easy to understand, and I have literally walked you step by step through each scripture and still you refuse look at it.

Why do I have to keep breaking down the same scriptures word for word when you wont even look at what Ive done?

Did you see what I meant about 2 Cor 4:18 or not ??

Easy enough.

And if you see what I mean, but have another theory can you please show me using that same line of text where I am mistaken.

Peace mike

 

[lukethreesix]

The first thing I notice in vs 16 is a "renewing of the inner man DAY BY DAY" Day by day, our inner man is age-abiding it goes beyond. What you're not understanding is that something temporal does not "endure the age" it doesn't fulfill the time or age in which it is in. Some thing that is age-abiding however completely fulfills the age, even goes beyond.

 

[Madad21]

.

Some thing that is age-abiding however completely fulfills the age, even goes beyond.

Goes beyond until when. Until it comes to some sort of conclusion?
In this case a Human Soul in your estimation is as such age-abiding?

Age-abiding does not mean eternal, and you guys don't translate aionios as Eternal.

somthing Age-abiding may be apart of an age or even ages, or even ages of ages. but its not Eternal as God is eternal.

Is God age-abiding?...no way

The man himself may be day by day, but the inner man is far from it.
As God is eternal being the one who created the Ages, so is our "Inner man" or our "Soul" Eternal, meaning with out end, not "Age-abiding" In fact the only one that can kill the soul is God himself.
[SIZE=14pt]Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[/SIZE]

If you believe the Bible you will know your soul or spirit (depending on your faith) is Eternal in the truest sense of the word. (I say that because JW's dont believe in an eternal soul)

Paul is saying that we are renewed by the Eternal Word through His Eternal spirit, that is also without end.

But what you don't understand is that I already know that what is day by day is temporal.
An individual person even though he is an "age" himself can not physically endure an "AGE" in the sense of the ages you speak.

I already know about the ages in which God works through Christ to bring all creation to the final age.

The Ages themselves are a part of eternity as time is to a clock.

[SIZE=14pt]However when Paul speaks of things Eternal like that which is unseen he is speaking of that which is without end, Kind of like a sun rise without a sunset[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]