Are Christians to forgive everyone or only those who repent?

[stunnedbygrace]

Love is a choice by principle. Feelings are engaged at a later stage to the principle.

I don't suppose you have a verse(s) that could help with what you say here? I'm trying to grasp that I can be loving someone when my heart is murdering them in resentment for how I've been treated. I cannot accept that what you've said is true because Jesus said anger in my heart is to have already murdered someone.

Another reason why I'm having trouble accepting it is because I see people all the time trying to HIDE their murderous resentment but their whole body and face shows what they are doing. Its ridiculous, this useless way we were taught to do (the useless conversation of our parents the apostle says we are to reject), and reminds me of my dog when he is behind some tiny little tree, thinking because he can't see me, I can't see him either!

So a verse might help me. Because to my eye, what you have said here sounds like...work on the outside of your cup and the inside will catch up and be clean later.

It seems to me like Adam in the garden, trying to hide from God because he did wrong.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, if I lack love, I can at least be honest about it. I mean...when the 2 men prayed, the one who was justified was not the one who loved or who didn't sin or who was holy. It was the one who was honest.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And I don't know between justified and righteous but...if I can't be righteous, surely being honest and walking away justified is better than being neither justified nor righteous, isn't it??

 

[Giuliano]

I don't suppose you have a verse(s) that could help with what you say here? I'm trying to grasp that I can be loving someone when my heart is murdering them in resentment for how I've been treated. I cannot accept that what you've said is true because Jesus said anger in my heart is to have already murdered someone.

Another reason why I'm having trouble accepting it is because I see people all the time trying to HIDE their murderous resentment but their whole body and face shows what they are doing. Its ridiculous, this useless way we were taught to do (the useless conversation of our parents the apostle says we are to reject), and reminds me of my dog when he is behind some tiny little tree, thinking because he can't see me, I can't see him either!

So a verse might help me.

The verse that comes to my mind about anger is:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Cain had messed up, not Abel, so he had no real reason to angry unless it would have been at himself. Sometimes however there is "cause" to be angry, and you might be nuts if you weren't annoyed. If you really want to murder someone for annoying you, then you may have a problem.

There are some people who it seems almost enjoy rousing anger in others to throw them off. If they can get you to do something bad, they have a hold over you; and they can constantly remind you of it too. If you find yourself in that situation, realize that the anger you feel is rational; but expressing it would be irrational. Thus:

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

When I get angry, I remember that verse and steel myself against acting unwisely. I get very cautious with what I say and do, lest I mess up. If I think someone is deliberately trying to provoke me, it used to bother me; now it amuses me. I won't let them win that way. There is another reason not to take the bait -- people will keep doing it if they get the reaction they want. Ha, don't let them win! Maybe they'll try something healthier.

There is an interesting verse in the Bible where the manuscripts vary widely. The usual translation reads "compassion."

Mark 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

Some manuscripts read "moved with anger." I think the original probably read "anger" and someone said that can't be right, so let me change that to "compassion." It is unthinkable that the original read "compassion" and copyists changed it to "anger."

I am not sure what could have made Jesus angry; but I assume, if he was angry, he had a good enough reason. The moral to the story is that he still did the right thing. He was able to be angry and sin not. When we see we are angry, it is like the Spirit talking to us the way God talked to Cain.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sin is out there like a beast ready to spring if we're not careful. Being aware of our emotional state when angry can become a blessing if we take it as a warning.

The urge to get angry is more often found in potentially strong people than weak ones. If they can master that urge, the way Peter did, it leads to realized strength.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The verse that comes to my mind about anger is:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Cain had messed up, not Abel, so he had no real reason to angry unless it would have been at himself. Sometimes however there is "cause" to be angry, and you might be nuts if you weren't annoyed. If you really want to murder someone for annoying you, then you may have a problem.

There are some people who it seems almost enjoy rousing anger in others to throw them off. If they can get you to do something bad, they have a hold over you; and they can constantly remind you of it too. If you find yourself in that situation, realize that the anger you feel is rational; but expressing it would be irrational. Thus:

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

When I get angry, I remember that verse and steel myself against acting unwisely. I get very cautious with what I say and do, lest I mess up. If I think someone is deliberately trying to provoke me, it used to bother me; now it amuses me. I won't let them win that way. There is another reason not to take the bait -- people will keep doing it if they get the reaction they want. Ha, don't let them win! Maybe they'll try something healthier.

There is an interesting verse in the Bible where the manuscripts vary widely. The usual translation reads "compassion."

Mark 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

Some manuscripts read "moved with anger." I think the original probably read "anger" and someone said that can't be right, so let me change that to "compassion." It is unthinkable that the original read "compassion" and copyists changed it to "anger."

I am not sure what could have made Jesus angry; but I assume, if he was angry, he had a good enough reason. The moral to the story is that he still did the right thing. He was able to be angry and sin not. When we see we are angry, it is like the Spirit talking to us the way God talked to Cain.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sin is out there like a beast ready to spring if we're not careful. Being aware of our emotional state when angry can become a blessing if we take it as a warning.

The urge to get angry is more often found in potentially strong people than weak ones. If they can master that urge, the way Peter did, it leads to realized strength.

That whole "angry without a cause" thing puzzles me. It almost would be better if without cause wasn't there! Because if someone say...snaps meanly and impatiently at me, do I have cause for my anger? It would seem so, except IF I have ever snapped at someone meanly and impatiently too, then where has my cause just gone? I have done the same thing at some point. So why would I demand an honor for myself that even I have failed to give at some point?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I get that we have to be mannered. I don't dispute that children should be taught to not act outwardly on anger, for the good of society at large.

What I object to is if I begin to think that is loving someone. Its not. It's being mannered. It is not loving in principle and its not loving in truth. It is hiding your murder for the sake and smooth functioning of society. Its fine. Its maybe even good. But its not love.

 

[Truth]

How do you determine when you are to just forgive and when you're to take reparative action - say if that person cheated you or harmed you in some way?

As soon as one come's to realize that holding on to the resentment has little or no effect on the offender!
I was cheated out of an abundant Inheritance, I came to realize that there is nothing in this world worth losing salvation for!
There have been many other offence's throughout my life that only crippled me, until I let go. both Spiritually and Physically!
There will be a day when all things hidden will be revealed and HE who was tempted as we are and have been, without Sin will be the ONE to deliver Justice. So be of good Heart, He will Vindicate all who were Offended!
Out of the Abundance of our Heart, come's good or evil! Let not your Heart be altered by the evil act of other's.
There is a Great Peace, when we Forgive!! It's not hard, You will See.

 

[Giuliano]

That whole "angry without a cause" thing puzzles me. It almost would be better if without cause wasn't there! Because if someone say...snaps meanly and impatiently at me, do I have cause for my anger? It would seem so, except IF I have ever snapped at someone meanly and impatiently too, then where has my cause just gone? I have done the same thing at some point. So why would I demand an honor for myself that even I have failed to give at some point?

I think it's misplaced anger.

One reason people get angry inappropriately is they aren't handling the problems in their lives. They have cause for anger but are afraid to tackle the real reasons for their anger; or they're in relationships and are afraid of losing someone if they were honest. Basically they have reasons to be angry but not doing anything. If they run into someone they see as weaker or vulnerable, they can take out their anger on them.

Odds are if someone snaps at you when you know it's not deserved, many times he'll regret it almost as soon as it comes out of his mouth; and a "soft word" will turn away anger as Solomon said. If you lose your anger, then he many feel his anger was justified; and things can get worse and worse. I sometimes ask people if they can calm down and tell me what's bothering them, what they think I did wrong, and maybe I can explain it. Sometimes people are so paranoid about life, they assume the worst motives for anything.

If you find yourself snapping inappropriately, realize that you're probably not solving the problems that actually annoy you and could be creating more for yourself by alienating other people. Venting on healthy and innocent people could cost you friends -- they may not want put up a fuss about it, they may just start avoiding you. That leaves you with the unhealthy people -- making life look even worse and more depressing.

I can see it where I work sometimes. Someone with loads of problems and in unhealthy relationships creates chaos and confusion with innocent people who could become their friends. Sometimes those innocent people tried; but the person with all the problems is so suspicious and resentful about life, they start rumors and do other negative things. Sometimes I wonder if they'll ever find healthy relationships because they're driving away the healthy people.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

and are afraid of losing someone if they were honest.

I can understand this here. You meet God and begin to be more honest. But your being honest is a threat to another's false construct/ view of the world. Chances are, you WILL lose them.

 

[bbyrd009]

Guess it all depends on perspective, I mean we die daily right?

ah well Paul did anyway, dunno about us
if we arent blessing those who curse us, prolly not imo

 

[Nancy]

I take what Jesus said to mean that we ALWAYS forgive no matter what else we do. If there is any rebuking to do, we go to that person with a heart of forgiveness.

I do believe this is correct PW, When Jesus said, "forgive them for they know not what they do..." I'm pretty sure those crucifying Him had no plans on asking for forgiveness...at least right then and there. Have to free ourselves of anything that if held onto, could make us bitter. If the person does not want to admit to what they have done, even though we are certain of what they did...because it was done to us...it is out of out hands and we just pray for them and ask God to bless them...not easy when the hurt is so fresh but, not impossible.

 

[bbyrd009]

Christianity is about works and effort to show if you are righteous, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins". It is not automatic, if God commanded we forgive everyone of their sins even if they did not ask for it, then he would be bound by his law to do the same. Which means all the evil and non-believers would go to Heaven, because none would have sin so none would go to Hell, since everyone is automatically forgiven their sins.

everyone is automatically forgiven of their sins, as Who told you that you were naked? might reveal to you. But wadr you dig a pit for others to fall into there bc you do not believe No one has ever gone up to heaven yeh?

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm pretty sure those crucifying Him had no plans on asking for forgiveness...at least right then and there.

nice imo, just imagine being surrounded by total forgiveness, yet not being in a frame of mind to accept it, and feeling justified in your position? What better description of Hell?
we heard You coming and we knew that we were naked, so we hid

 

[Nancy]

nice imo, just imagine being surrounded by total forgiveness, yet not being in a frame of mind to accept it, and feeling justified in your position? What better description of Hell?
we heard You coming and we knew that we were naked, so we hid

Ha,, yeah. And, I bet their were some there who had their hearts pricked but a conscience too calloused to repent, I mean, after all they WERE just doing their job!
We're so good at justifying our selves...sad.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When you think of God forgiving you even though you didn't deserve it, and Him forgiving you and drawing you even while you were sinning against Him, you SEE the beauty and genius of God. You see what loving first and forgiving first accomplishes and triumphs over. And you see how false it is to say you love God when you can't love and forgive your neighbor. You can't say you love God if you can't lay down your life of pride for your neighbor. And yet...honesty is always best. You can see the good, but you can't do it. Its not in you. It's in Him. SO it's best to just be truthful and see where honesty leads to...

 

[Nancy]

When you think of God forgiving you even though you didn't deserve it, and Him forgiving you and drawing you even while you were sinning against Him, you SEE the beauty and genius of God. You see what loving first and forgiving first accomplishes and triumphs over. And you see how false it is to say you love God when you can't love and forgive your neighbor. You can't say you love God if you can't lay down your life of pride for your neighbor. And yet...honesty is always best. You can see the good, but you can't do it. Its not in you. It's in Him. SO it's best to just be truthful and see where honesty leads to...

Amen to that. I hate that I have these things still in me and ask constantly for Him to soften my own heart towards others. Always keeping in mind all the horrid stuff I did in my life and still forgave me, even in the midst of my sin! Just want to extend the same grace and forgiveness He gave to us....BUT - without being a hypocrite about it because, that is sometimes what it makes me feel like.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes that makes sense - it seems to be what the 2nd verse implies - yet the two verses seem to contradict each other.

That's how they work together. The command is to forgive everyone who asks you to, and if you do not, neither will your Father forgive you. The Lord was trying to keep the unity of the brethren, and not allow Satan to destroy the church through absolute refusals to forgive.

 

[Helen]

When we forgive, WE get freed from bondage. That freedom is made available to the other person, too, but that doesn't guarantee that they will receive it.

I do not believe that forgiveness requires us to trust untrustworthy people. It just means that all current debts are canceled. Jesus wants us to be wise as serpents. And gentle as doves.

Leadership may have to deal with issues that impact the Church, but that isn't the same thing as personal unforgiveness.

Well said !

 

[Helen]

As soon as one come's to realize that holding on to the resentment has little or no effect on the offender!
I was cheated out of an abundant Inheritance, I came to realize that there is nothing in this world worth losing salvation for!
There have been many other offence's throughout my life that only crippled me, until I let go. both Spiritually and Physically!
There will be a day when all things hidden will be revealed and HE who was tempted as we are and have been, without Sin will be the ONE to deliver Justice. So be of good Heart, He will Vindicate all who were Offended!
Out of the Abundance of our Heart, come's good or evil! Let not your Heart be altered by the evil act of other's.
There is a Great Peace, when we Forgive!! It's not hard, You will See.

YES!! Good post...thank you, so true and well said.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't suppose you have a verse(s) that could help with what you say here? I'm trying to grasp that I can be loving someone when my heart is murdering them in resentment for how I've been treated. I cannot accept that what you've said is true because Jesus said anger in my heart is to have already murdered someone.

Another reason why I'm having trouble accepting it is because I see people all the time trying to HIDE their murderous resentment but their whole body and face shows what they are doing. Its ridiculous, this useless way we were taught to do (the useless conversation of our parents the apostle says we are to reject), and reminds me of my dog when he is behind some tiny little tree, thinking because he can't see me, I can't see him either!

So a verse might help me. Because to my eye, what you have said here sounds like...work on the outside of your cup and the inside will catch up and be clean later.

It seems to me like Adam in the garden, trying to hide from God because he did wrong.

From experience it starts with a willingness. Without willingness you go nowhere. I'll tell you my story in short form....

Quiet some years back I was engaged to get married. It stalled for reasons I'm all too familiar with meaning that difficulties that surfaced where not spoken about. She was unwilling to get to the core of the issues although I lived in hope. She developed interests which I had no interest in. She met a man from these circles and it wasn't long before his car was parked outside her place all night. Joining the dots was a no brainer but it crippled me, not just emotionally but physically. I was seething to the max.
Now, my situation is I am fit, working out and running regularly but within twelve months of this happening parts of my body were shutting or breaking down. To be specific, my hips. Pain was developing to the point I couldn't stand straight upright and found myself bent over and shuffling to walk with very limited articulation in the joint.
X-rays revealed both hip joints to be totally worn out....no cartilage left. It was bone on bone grinding itself away. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the X-rays and my ears when the Doc said hip replacements were the only option.
The emotional load had superimposed itself physically. I'm assuming you understand the connection and how it works? for example if we focus our thoughts on bitting into a lemon you will find saliva gathering in your mouth or again, If you maintain sexy thoughts your body responds.
Conclusion....what you think/feel/focus on results in physical changes either for good or bad.

The emotional upheaval was afresh every time I thought of this betrayal, like a tsunami. Yes, I knew I should forgive but i had no power to execute it because the memories and the resentments took over. This went on and on and on even though I had cut all communication with her.
I finally earnestly asked God to give me strength to forgive; to give me the willingness not to hold it against her as it wasn't possible for me to generate forgiveness. Every time I caught myself starting the resentment cycle I would cut it short by crying to God for help
Time went by, the hips were replaced and slowly my health got back on track as I prayed and maintained my daily choice to forgive the resentments and the caustic thinking faded without me being conscious of it.

One day years later there was a knock at my door, I opened it to see her standing there in tears apologising for her behaviour at that time. I invited her in and we managed to talk as honestly as our courage allowed. She ended up marrying this guy and tells me they have a good relationship. As for my relationship with her....we now have a friendship above what I had imagined was possible in those caustic years.

Sooo, what have I learnt from all this? I have learnt that problems/issues that arise can and only will be overcome if I am willing. I make a choice, I ask God for strength, I maintain my choice irrespective of feelings that surface and live in gratitude of God's support.