Church Baptism of an Online Viewer?

[HammerStone]

I saw this today on Facebook through one of the many pastors I follow. (If you happen to have seen this, let's leave names of people and churches out of it, please.)

It raises the question, at least for me, in that is this baptism below valid?

The pastor remarked that today an individual was baptized. This church practices believer baptism and it's nothing new for this church to baptize hundreds on a Sunday. They do a good bit of fruit-producing work through faith and they've literally transformed some areas.

But, it caught my attention today when the pastor noted that the baptized watched the church online through their app. They came from across the country to be baptized.

Now, I think the fact that this person came cross-country is interesting. The person is young and a part of a group that many would say is less religious and involved in church, so in many ways that is a great, great thing. However, her participation in this church is most likely limited to spectator status. I am going to make the working assumption that she watches the church with no group of believers or anything and that she is not in a local church.

Looking at this with Scripture in mind, is this baptism valid? Is this merely a story from changing times, or are we now willing to call anything a baptism?

I am not fully studied and decided on the matter, myself. This is an honest question, and so let's keep the flaming out of it. Why or why not?

Cite Scripture, sources, and provide your thoughts, please.

 

[By Grace Alone]

She was moved by the Holy Spirit and the services she watched to the point where she went cross country to be baptized in person. I'd say that is definitely a baptism. Hopefully, she will now be moved and encouraged to begin participating in a local congregation. She could still watch the app, as well.

I listen to sermons from a church that is 2000 miles away from me because I find them especially inspiring. However, I am also involved in a local church. The fellowship of believers is central to Christian life, so I don't think the virtual watching and listening should be a substitute.

BGA

 

[aspen]

Why not opt for experiencing the rapture via an app? Or The Judgment Day app?

 

[justaname]

Water baptism is an outward display of one's faith. Yes the baptism is valid and should not be connected to her participation to any particular congregation. If she is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or be it the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then the baptism is valid.

Look to the Eunuch in Acts, what local church did he attend?

 

[Dodo_David]

Recall what happened in Acts 8:26-39, when Philip baptized the Ethiopian who was passing through on a business trip. The Ethiopian was not part of any messianic congregation. When the Apostle Paul was baptized, he had not yet joined any congregation of believers. So, the validity of a person's baptism doesn't depend on whether or not a person has been attending a church somewhere.

Regarding the case of baptism reported in Post #1 above, I'd say that it is up to a person to use Scripture to prove that the baptism isn't valid.

 

[Rex]

From the start I have no idea who or what church your referring to but taken as the truth was received, via web app I have no problem with it.

If you do find it troubling or invalid then take your bible "app" containing the record "recording" of salvation and tag it as being invalid because none of us attend the first church. We merely heard it through a letter.

Sounds like typical pasters more concerned with nickels and noses than pointing to salvation, I pray she finds her way home in-spite of mans imposed technicalities.

obviously someone that travels across the USA to be baptized at a particular church has been sold into the doctrines of men IMO

 

[Angelina]

I would say that she was moved in her spirit when watching the on-line Church service and decided to be baptized in that Church. Most of the Churches I have been associated with, will not baptize a person without them going through some form of lesson on baptism and it's meaning and significance for the new believer. Even then, the pastor may not give the go ahead if he thinks that the member is not ready.
Baptism is a symbol of the death and resurrection of Christ in which most baptized believers understand. This very much reminds me of the thread about the Gay woman who felt it unfair that she could not take part in the Euchrist in the Catholic Church service. Is the person saved???

I would have a real problem if the story was about someone baptizing via on-line application from another part of the country or world ie: cyber baptism... :huh: I'm sure that will be the next step over the threshold of today's techno mission fields...WWJD?

 

[HammerStone]

Well perhaps valid is not the best word, but my concern is that you have someone essentially not plugged into a church who has been baptized with little to no other commitment. Obviously the person did give up something to travel so far, but it's also very easy to commit to something that you don't have to actually do.

I guess where I am getting at is that since many of us here don't view baptism as a sacrament, then this type of baptism is made possible assuming it's a baptism for the greater church (the body, spanning all time) versus being involved through a local body. The Ethopian Eunuch does apply to an extent, because ya'll rightly point out that he had no congregation to go back to, but is that an excuse these days? Is it not much easier to watch an app video versus having to sacrifice time and effort to be involved. Even the Eunuch had obviously studied Scripture and probably checked things out during his time in the area.

That's not to say this person hasn't done that - I don't know.

 

[Dodo_David]

I believe that we would be going the way of the Pharisees if we were to add to the New Testament our own rules pertaining to baptism.

If baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, then in the story cited in Post #1, the baptism of the new believer served its biblical purpose.

 

[Angelina]

The Eunuch was an Ethiopian proselyte. He was already a part of the Jewish synagogue in Jerusalem because he was returning from worshiping there when Philip talked with him re: the book of Isaiah. Not long after that it was said that Cush experienced a huge revival...

I hope that she finds a Church in her own local area if that baptism was real to her. I suspect that the Pastor may just be blowing his own horn re: the on-line work/ ministry of his Church...JMHO

 

[HammerStone]

I believe that we would be going the way of the Pharisees if we were to add to the New Testament our own rules pertaining to baptism.

Well, I am not God, so I cannot sit in judgment on the person. I don't want to, either, because I have my own issues and God is still at work on me.

However, faith without works is dead. (James 2:17)

At what point do we draw the line if not here?

This church is much too large to have 1 on 1 time with the pastor, but I am sure that the person talked to someone. However, is there a point where a quick chat with someone (or long distance correspondence) fails to confirm an active faith?

Are we finally seeing some of the end results of a culture where a baptism is entirely a private matter not to be questioned? Is this really a New Testament model of doing things?

 

[Dodo_David]

So, how often is a new believer baptized after making a public confession of faith? Where I live, it happens frequently.

Whether or not newly-baptized people will have an active faith is something that is somewhat subjective. A new believer is a baby in Christ, and, thus, will not necessarily bear the same kind of fruit of maturity that a seasoned Christian will bear. If the new believer cited in Post #1 has faith the size of a mustard seed, then is that person's baptism invalid because the person has yet to learn how to properly live a Christ-centered life?

 

[Angelina]

Is this really a New Testament model of doing things?

No...the responsibility goes back to that Church and how they will apply that baptism to her continued walk and faith in Jesus... :huh: I hope they have thought about this or at least start dialing and get her into a Church body in her local area.

Blessings!!!

 

[justaname]

Well perhaps valid is not the best word, but my concern is that you have someone essentially not plugged into a church who has been baptized with little to no other commitment. Obviously the person did give up something to travel so far, but it's also very easy to commit to something that you don't have to actually do.

I guess where I am getting at is that since many of us here don't view baptism as a sacrament, then this type of baptism is made possible assuming it's a baptism for the greater church (the body, spanning all time) versus being involved through a local body. The Ethopian Eunuch does apply to an extent, because ya'll rightly point out that he had no congregation to go back to, but is that an excuse these days? Is it not much easier to watch an app video versus having to sacrifice time and effort to be involved. Even the Eunuch had obviously studied Scripture and probably checked things out during his time in the area.

That's not to say this person hasn't done that - I don't know.

The concern is valid... (Hebrews 10:25)

Looking to the involvement aspect though just what does that consist of? How are we to judge that in any particular case?

Please do not misunderstand me, I do think it is best to be under a pastor that can guide, build, edify, teach, provide an example and things of the like. In an optimum environment that would happen early, but life does not always happen that way. Should we not rejoice with her in her decision of getting baptized to begin with? Are not the angels in heaven singing?

We do not know her personal practices, nor the intent of her heart other than the outward show of faith. And be it far from us to judge the church without knowing any true details as to exactly what took place. Assumptions are just that and are not worth anything of value.

To further the point we have no clue as to how God is intending to use this believer. Perhaps she may be instrumental in founding a similar church in her region.

 

[Angelina]

Despite the unknown details of this situation...the responsibility still lands back at the Church who baptized her. They may have already been in contact with a local Church or started some form of communication regarding her continued walk in the newly formed faith...who knows...but the reality of the situation is; that the Church has a responsibility to see things through to a satisfactory end...

Blessings!!!

 

[Dodo_David]

In other words, the newly-baptized believer is in need of discipleship. However, the need for discipleship doesn't invalidate the baptism.

 

[biggandyy]

hmmm... this person traveled many many miles to be baptized by this particular pastor.

Do you see the problem there? The local parsons could have performed just as valid a baptism as the guy on the interwebs and they would be just as "saved" as the next person.

I sort of see a cult of personality, at least in as far as the individual who traveled many miles is involved. It would appear to me that if the person would have received any modicum of Godly advice from Christians around them the trip would have been cancelled.

It has all the earmarks of a cultish devotion by the individual. That very well may not be the case, but it does raise the spectre of an inauthentic conversion experience.

 

[Brother Brian]

this is tricky
here is a few questions that may help
can one be saved by tv or an app in this case? I was saved on the back of something creflo dollar said but I would not attend his church.
can one baptise themselves? why not?
can anyone that is saved baptise? I think so
or is that just reserved for pastors, no

personally if it is full emersion under the water in the name of the father son and holy spirit, that's ok till at least until you can re affirm your faith in front of your chosen church.

on the topic of church, I was terrified to go to church as a new believer as I did not want to end up in some dead end church, so I relied on the holy spirit to teach at home and with other christians before attending church. I was lead to a few before finding one that was good for me. this took me 2/3 years.

brother brian