Genesis : Trinity

[Taken]

What I see is that the order for all human persons is first natural, then spiritual.

I see the ORDER of humans YES, first Natural, and a FEW then Spiritual... “not all”.

I see this order as applicable to Jesus, truly a human person, which makes the issue that of preexistence - you holding to literal preexistence; me to the notional preexistence of Jewish monotheism.

I see the ORDER of God, without Beginning.
I see the ESSENCE of God, of what IS IN Him, IS Him.

I see the KNOWLEDGE revealed in Scripture;
*...Gods Word IS IN Him, comes forth out from Him, & yet remains IN Him.
*...Gods Will IS IN Him, comes forth out from Him, & yet remains IN
Him.
*...Gods Power IS IN Him, comes forth out from Him, & yet remains IN Him.

Scripture reveals, WHILE the Earth Foundation was being Laid/established and the Earth’s Inhabitants were being Created and Make (alive)...
He WHO was (and shall be) called THE BRIGHT morning Star, WAS “singing”.
He WHO was called A morning star, was also “singing”....and shortly thereafter...he was cast down from Heaven, Lost his holy status, Lost his holy estate, Lost his holy name....BECAUSE...he turned the TRUTH of God, INTO a “LIE”....Murdering Gods TRUTH.

Gods Word...was CALLED The Morning Star.
Gods Word...was CALLED The Angel of the Lord.
The Angel of the Lord...was SEEN by Human men, and Human men CALLED, the Angel of the Lord......A MAN.

Centuries LATER...AGAIN....Gods Word IS SEEN On Earth, in the LIKENESS AS a “human” Man....and God SAID.....Call Him JESUS.
AND...God SAID....He “would be Called”....The Son of God.

When JESUS, began His ministry, (approx age 30); IS the DAY, God Declared......and CALLED Him.....The Son of God.

Scripture Reveals, the SAME called JESUS, called The Son of God, IS Gods Word......that COMES FORTH OUT OF GODS MOUTH, yet Remains IN God.

Gods Word HAS BEEN Coming Forth OUT OF Gods MOUTH, from the Beginning of Gods “WILL” becoming “manifested”...

Why you do not Believe, Gods Word, IS God, or WAS a WITNESS TO Gods Creation and IS the Maker of Gods Creation....that’s on you to come to grips with.

Clearly....WHEN God SAID....His own Word came forth out of His mouth.

Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God CREATED.....
AND (conjunction...next after Creating)...
God MADE..........via SAYING.

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

WHO Created? God
WHAT Heaven it’s hosts, Earth it’s hosts.
WHO Made? The Heaven, it’s hosts, Earth, it’s hosts ALIVE? God.
WHO does Scripture CALL the MAKER? John Chapt. 1? JESUS.

What DOES the MAKER DO? Makes the Creations ALIVE.
Who IS THE LIFE? JESUS.

No, I do not agree with you, that the MAKER of Creation IS the Created.

I do believe the Creator AND Maker IS God...PERIOD.
I do believe The Creator AND Maker IS Spirit...PERIOD.
I do BELIEVE God IS: Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient ...
AND HAS, AND CAN APPEAR, in ANY good image, ANY good likeness, according to His Own WILL (pleasure),
TO: Accomplish His OWN WILL. (Pleasure).

 

[Matthias]

I see the ORDER of humans YES, first Natural, and a FEW then Spiritual... “not all”.



I see the ORDER of God, without Beginning.
I see the ESSENCE of God, of what IS IN Him, IS Him.

I see the KNOWLEDGE revealed in Scripture;
*...Gods Word IS IN Him, comes forth out from Him, & yet remains IN Him.
*...Gods Will IS IN Him, comes forth out from Him, & yet remains IN
Him.
*...Gods Power IS IN Him, comes forth out from Him, & yet remains IN Him.

Scripture reveals, WHILE the Earth Foundation was being Laid/established and the Earth’s Inhabitants were being Created and Make (alive)...
He WHO was (and shall be) called THE BRIGHT morning Star, WAS “singing”.
He WHO was called A morning star, was also “singing”....and shortly thereafter...he was cast down from Heaven, Lost his holy status, Lost his holy estate, Lost his holy name....BECAUSE...he turned the TRUTH of God, INTO a “LIE”....Murdering Gods TRUTH.

Gods Word...was CALLED The Morning Star.
Gods Word...was CALLED The Angel of the Lord.
The Angel of the Lord...was SEEN by Human men, and Human men CALLED, the Angel of the Lord......A MAN.

Centuries LATER...AGAIN....Gods Word IS SEEN On Earth, in the LIKENESS AS a “human” Man....and God SAID.....Call Him JESUS.
AND...God SAID....He “would be Called”....The Son of God.

When JESUS, began His ministry, (approx age 30); IS the DAY, God Declared......and CALLED Him.....The Son of God.

Scripture Reveals, the SAME called JESUS, called The Son of God, IS Gods Word......that COMES FORTH OUT OF GODS MOUTH, yet Remains IN God.

Gods Word HAS BEEN Coming Forth OUT OF Gods MOUTH, from the Beginning of Gods “WILL” becoming “manifested”...

Why you do not Believe, Gods Word, IS God, or WAS a WITNESS TO Gods Creation and IS the Maker of Gods Creation....that’s on you to come to grips with.

Clearly....WHEN God SAID....His own Word came forth out of His mouth.

Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God CREATED.....
AND (conjunction...next after Creating)...
God MADE..........via SAYING.

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

WHO Created? God
WHAT Heaven it’s hosts, Earth it’s hosts.
WHO Made? The Heaven, it’s hosts, Earth, it’s hosts ALIVE? God.
WHO does Scripture CALL the MAKER? John Chapt. 1? JESUS.

What DOES the MAKER DO? Makes the Creations ALIVE.
Who IS THE LIFE? JESUS.

No, I do not agree with you, that the MAKER of Creation IS the Created.

I do believe the Creator AND Maker IS God...PERIOD.
I do believe The Creator AND Maker IS Spirit...PERIOD.
I do BELIEVE God IS: Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient ...
AND HAS, AND CAN APPEAR, in ANY good image, ANY good likeness, according to His Own WILL (pleasure),
TO: Accomplish His OWN WILL. (Pleasure).

I don’t believe the maker of creation is the created.

I believe the maker of creation is the God and Father of Jesus.

All human beings are created.

 

[Taken]

@Taken you don’t believe “for one second” that God is a human being. Neither do I.

What about the trinitarians and the
binitarians?

I have no issue with the “word” Triune, Trinity, AS “a” word, to indicate “a” reference to: The Lord God Almighty.

I DO NOT, agree, with Catholic teaching, “adding to” (the long historical sketches that “represented” a Triune God symbol, ie the Sketch/Diagram representation of THE “shield of Faith”)
....adding of their words of what GOD IS NOT.

Binitarians? No clue what that is.
I am not particularly interested or favorable to “the ENDLESS” lists of “tag Name” words MEN make-up...so they can PIN that label on themselves OR “ON” others as they so please, whether true or not.

 

[Matthias]

I have no issue with the “word” Triune, Trinity, AS “a” word, to indicate “a” reference to: The Lord God Almighty.

I DO NOT, agree, with Catholic teaching, “adding to” (the long historical sketches that “represented” a Triune God symbol, ie the Sketch/Diagram representation of THE “shield of Faith”)
....adding of their words of what GOD IS NOT.

Binitarians? No clue what that is.
I am not particularly interested or favorable to “the ENDLESS” lists of “tag Name” words MEN make-up...so they can PIN that label on themselves OR “ON” others as they so please, whether true or not.

Whoever they are, we should all be able to agree that God is not a human being and the heavens and the earth were not created by a human being.

 

[Matthias]

Labels. Society gone mad wants to do away with them.

 

[farouk]

I have no issue with the “word” Triune, Trinity, AS “a” word, to indicate “a” reference to: The Lord God Almighty.

I DO NOT, agree, with Catholic teaching, “adding to” (the long historical sketches that “represented” a Triune God symbol, ie the Sketch/Diagram representation of THE “shield of Faith”)
....adding of their words of what GOD IS NOT.

Binitarians? No clue what that is.
I am not particularly interested or favorable to “the ENDLESS” lists of “tag Name” words MEN make-up...so they can PIN that label on themselves OR “ON” others as they so please, whether true or not.

Hi @Taken

The word Trinity is not in the Bible but what the word Trinity - which has derivatives - certainly is in the Bible: the glorious revelation of God in Three Persons.

 

[Taken]

I don’t believe the maker of creation is the created.

I believe the maker of creation is the God and Father of Jesus.

All human beings are created.

I believe the MAKER is God called JESUS.

Have you read...John Chapter 1?....John Chapter 8?

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 8:
[12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[Taken]

Hi @Taken

The word Trinity is not in the Bible but what the word Trinity - which has derivatives - certainly is in the Bible: the glorious revelation of God in Three Persons.

Perhaps look up PERSON. 1828 Webster’s Dictionary is online.

 

[Matthias]

I believe the MAKER is God called JESUS.

I believe the MAKER is God called Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus the Nazarene.

Have you read...John Chapter 1?....John Chapter 8?

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 8:
[12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[ScottA]

Just listen to Jesus and believe him. He tells us who his God and the God of his followers is. There is no other.

If people want to argue about it until Jesus returns, they will.

Sorry Matthias, but that is just being shallow and not looking at the bigger picture. I just explained it in another thread:

The issue here is indeed the thinking of men compared with that of God. Matthew 16:23

We need to remember that mankind has been cast out of the presence of God--therefore, by definition, it cannot be said that Christ is God. But "God with us" (Immanuel) is also very clear...that it is instead God by his own right hand reaching out--not man in the presence of God (where He is), but God in the presence of man (where they are). For this reason Jesus also said, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." John 14:3 Only God could do such a thing.

It should also be understood, that no one but God could baptize with His spirit. Matthew 3:11
​

Thus, you and many others are just saying "It cannot be said that Christ is God" and not factoring in the whole truth...which also cannot be done (except within the context of this world). Which is to say...that is just the thinking of men who have not fully considered God.

 

[Matthias]

Sorry Matthias, but that is just being shallow and not looking at the bigger picture.

You didn’t pick up on my hint. That’s on me.

I just explained it in another thread:

The issue here is indeed the thinking of men compared with that of God. Matthew 16:23

We need to remember that mankind has been cast out of the presence of God--therefore, by definition, it cannot be said that Christ is God. But "God with us" (Immanuel) is also very clear...that it is instead God by his own right hand reaching out--not man in the presence of God (where He is), but God in the presence of man (where they are). For this reason Jesus also said, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." John 14:3 Only God could do such a thing.

It should also be understood, that no one but God could baptize with His spirit. Matthew 3:11
​

Thus, you and many others are just saying "It cannot be said that Christ is God" and not factoring in the whole truth...which also cannot be done (except within the context of this world). Which is to say...that is just the thinking of men who have not fully considered God.

Christ is God. Jewish monotheism is the key.

 

[ScottA]

You didn’t pick up on my hint. That’s on me.

Christ is God. Jewish monotheism is the key.

Technically speaking, if a line is to be drawn between who is God and who is not God but man regarding the person of Jesus/Yeshua:

Jesus in the flesh was The Son of Man and a man, but in spirit was the Son of God and God, making Him apart from God as are all men, but also a part of God as no other man, but One begotten of God--the cause of the subject whom is God.​

 

[Taken]

Labels. Society gone mad wants to do away with them.

Society wants to do away with labels?
Huh?
Society creates more labels than you can shake a stick at.

 

[Matthias]

Technically speaking, if a line is to be drawn between who is God and who is not God but man regarding the person of Jesus/Yeshua:

Jesus in the flesh was The Son of Man and a man, but in spirit was the Son of God and God, making Him apart from God as are all men, but also a part of God as no other man, but One begotten of God--the cause of the subject whom is God.​

Not in Jewish monotheism.

 

[Matthias]

Society wants to do away with labels?
Huh?
Society creates more labels than you can shake a stick at.

“Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
it’s a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world”

(Ray Davies)

 

[Taken]

Not in Jewish monotheism.

“Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
it’s a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world”

(Ray Davies)

Ok, yes. Get your point.

 

[ScottA]

Not in Jewish monotheism.

They didn't have all the answers.

 

[Matthias]

They didn't have all the answers.

It has the answer.

 

[ScottA]

It has the answer.

Yes, and yet God then unpacked it beyond what they knew and were told.

But that is not to say that God is not repacking it too--because He is. And that is the reason for the problem. People pick up on whatever they fancy and consider it the only truth, not factoring in all truth, making each one of those doctrines little more than religion without understanding. At this point we should be putting all the pieces together--not just dying on this or that hill that we came upon and decided to camp on until the end.

 

[Matthias]

Yes…

When I was a teenager I had a summer job working in a store. I remember the manager of the store telling me that once the customer has said yes my job was done.

…and yet God then unpacked it beyond what they knew and were told.

The identity of the one God isn’t changed in Jewish monotheism.

But that is not to say that God is not repacking it too--because He is. And that is the reason for the problem. People pick up on whatever they fancy and consider it the only truth, not factoring in all truth, making each one of those doctrines little more than religion without understanding. At this point we should be putting all the pieces together--not just dying on this or that hill that we came upon and decided to camp on until the end.

That’s far beyond the Jewish monotheism of the Messiah.