Genesis : Trinity

[ScottA]

When I was a teenager I had a summer job working in a store. I remember the manager of the store telling me that once the customer has said yes my job was done.

The identity of the one God isn’t changed in Jewish monotheism.

That’s far beyond the Jewish monotheism of the Messiah.

Are you trying to say they had it all figured out, were right about everything, and that you share their beliefs?

'Cause like I said, they didn't have all the answers. In fact, their history is rebellion after rebellion, and they killed the prophets and even the Son of God whom He sent to them.

 

[Matthias]

Are you trying to say they had it all figured out, were right about everything, and that you share their beliefs?

No.

'Cause like I said, they didn't have all the answers. In fact, their history is rebellion after rebellion, and they killed the prophets and even the Son of God whom He sent to them.

I’ve told you that Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist and his monotheism is the answer. I share his belief.

 

[ScottA]

No.

I’ve told you that Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist and his monotheism is the answer. I share his belief.

That is a No, but Yes answer...and the reason we are having this discussion. You are claiming their beliefs as Jesus' beliefs, when they were "far from" Him.

Do you not see the problem there?

 

[Matthias]

That is a No, but Yes answer...

You’re incorrectly framing the narrative.

…and the reason we are having this discussion.

Now you’re being presumptuous.

Your reason for having this discussion isn’t my reason for having this discussion.

You are claiming their beliefs as Jesus' beliefs, when they were "far from" Him.

I’m claiming that Jesus’ belief is Jewish monotheism, so is mine, and that it is the answer.

Do you not see the problem there?

 

[farouk]

Perhaps look up PERSON. 1828 Webster’s Dictionary is online.

For example, the personality of the Holy Spirit is clear from various Scripture verses.

 

[ScottA]

I’m claiming that Jesus’ belief is Jewish monotheism, so is mine, and that it is the answer.

The problem with that is that the Jewish monotheists were wrong in their beliefs or they would have believed also in Jesus, and Jesus did not have "beliefs" (as you or they) but "knew" the truth.

 

[Matthias]

The problem with that is that the Jewish monotheists were wrong in their beliefs or they would have believed also in Jesus, and Jesus did not have "beliefs" (as you or they) but "knew" the truth.

Those who rejected him - not all of them did - rejected the idea that he is the Messiah, not his and their belief in Jewish monotheism.

 

[RLT63]

Those who rejected him - not all of them did - rejected the idea that he is the Messiah, not his and their belief in Jewish monotheism.

I think he had quite a few followers until he preached the sermon about eating flesh and drinking blood, then the numbers dwindled. They were following him as long as he was handing out fish and loaves, but couldn't handle this message.

 

[marks]

The problem with that is that the Jewish monotheists were wrong in their beliefs or they would have believed also in Jesus, and Jesus did not have "beliefs" (as you or they) but "knew" the truth.

Well stated.

It's simple. The Jews in Jesus' day knew that Jesus was in effect claiming equality with God, claiming Godhood Himself. They didn't believe Him and sought to kill Him because of it. So is it really our goal to emulate those who killed their Messiah?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

I think he had quite a few followers until he preached the sermon about eating flesh and drinking blood, then the numbers dwindled. They were following him as long as he was handing out fish and loaves, but couldn't handle this message.

Yes. Their unbelief had nothing to do with Jewish monotheism. He and they were Jewish monotheists. There was no dispute over who the one God is.

 

[marks]

Yes. Their unbelief had nothing to do with Jewish monotheism. He and they were Jewish monotheists. There was no dispute over who the one God is.

No, they wanted to kill Jesus because they understood that He was making Himself God. To them He was committing blasphemy in doing so.

And you keep citing Jesus' "beliefs", what Scripture passages do you have in mind that show His "beliefs"?

For instance, Jesus knew He had come from God, and knew He was returning to God. This wasn't a matter of faith to Him, He knew. As He said, Before Abraham was, I am, He was making a propositional statement revealing His eternal existence. The faith is ours, whether we believe Him or not.

You declare Jesus "believed" that He isn't God. Isn't this just claiming Him for your side? What are the Scriptures that say this is so?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

No, they wanted to kill Jesus because they understood that He was making Himself God. To them He was committing blasphemy in doing so.

And you keep citing Jesus' "beliefs", what Scripture passages do you have in mind that show His "beliefs"?

For instance, Jesus knew He had come from God, and knew He was returning to God. This wasn't a matter of faith to Him, He knew. As He said, Before Abraham was, I am, He was making a propositional statement revealing His eternal existence. The faith is ours, whether we believe Him or not.

You declare Jesus "believed" that He isn't God. Isn't this just claiming Him for your side? What are the Scriptures that say this is so?

Much love!

Jesus was a first-century Jewish monotheist. Trinitarian scholars know better than to deny that. You don’t know better than to deny it, at least at the present time.

You don’t believe what Jesus believes because you reject Jewish monotheism.

 

[Matthias]

“[Jesus] was a first-century Jewish monotheist.”

(N.T. Wright, Jesus And The Victory of God, p. 652)

If you had your way @marks Jesus wouldn’t be allowed to post on this forum.

 

[marks]

Jesus was a first-century Jewish monotheist. Trinitarian scholars know better than to deny that. You don’t know better than to deny it, at least at the present time.

Does this mean you don't have Scriptures that support what you are saying? You are just restating your assertion.

I think when Jesus said, If you've seen me, you've seen the Father, that He meant exactly that. The fulness of God lived in Jesus bodily . . . how? Incarnation. The Word was God, the Word became flesh, where did Jesus deny the plain meanings of those statments?

Why didn't He "set the record straight" with the Pharisees, when they wanted to kill Him for making Himself God? "No, wait a minute guys, that's not what I meant . . ." but He didn't say that. A terrible ommision if it were a correction that needed to be made.

I'm saying, don't just ridicule me because I don't share your view, show it to me in the Bible. I believe the Bible. We can all find scholars to show what we are presenting. But show it to me in the Bible.

Because what I find there is different from what lots of scholars and forum members write.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You don’t believe what Jesus believes because you reject Jewish monotheism.

Is that so?

Actually, I believe what Jesus knew to be true of Himself, as He presented Himself to Israel, as shown in the Bible.

You would accuse me of putting the conculsion before the study, and lots of people say lots of things and it's water on a duck's back, because in fact I do understand the reasons I think what I do. Not the first time I'm accused of intellectual dishonesty, choosing my beliefs, and then filtering the Scriptures to match.

The reality is that when we learn to hold as true all the sayings of the Bible, and interpret them so that we continue to hold them true, while finding harmony with all the others, we find this conclusion inescapable.

Again, Show me in the Bible "Jesus' beliefs".

?

Much love!

 

[marks]

“[Jesus] was a first-century Jewish monotheist.”

(N.T. Wright, Jesus And The Victory of God, p. 652)

If you had your way @marks Jesus wouldn’t be allowed to post on this forum.

Again you presume about me. Falsely.

Time to stop.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

Those who rejected him - not all of them did - rejected the idea that he is the Messiah, not his and their belief in Jewish monotheism.

Your point is weak, even void, for it is written "all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death" and after delivering Him up to Pilate the crowd cried out, “Crucify Him!”

And even now you say "Messiah" meaning "God (with us)", rejecting what you choose not to believe of all that is written of Him.

 

[Matthias]

Your point is weak, even void, for it is written "all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death" and after delivering Him up to Pilate the crowd cried out, “Crucify Him!”

And even now you say "Messiah" meaning "God (with us)", rejecting what you choose not to believe of all that is written of Him.

Even now I say to you what I’ve already said to you. Your teaching doesn’t align with the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism and it has you following a deity which the Messiah himself doesn’t.

You apparently think that’s fine and dandy. I don’t.

 

[ScottA]

Well stated.

It's simple. The Jews in Jesus' day knew that Jesus was in effect claiming equality with God, claiming Godhood Himself. They didn't believe Him and sought to kill Him because of it. So is it really our goal to emulate those who killed their Messiah?

Much love!

Indeed, the proof of Jesus being God was confirmed by the Priests by their accusation, and by Jesus Himself by His ability to take up His life again. Unfortunately (for them) some do not believe all that is written.

 

[Matthias]

Again you presume about me. Falsely.

Time to stop.

Much love!

You dropped this on the front porch of Jewish monotheism.

“Christianity Board Statement of Faith

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

Why are you here?

Much love!”

Jesus, himself a Jewish monotheist, is aware of it.