If a Christian Commits Suicide

[Foreigner]

"The reason why you woudl have to be mentally ill to kill yourself is because self preservation is something that all living things have and the prolonging of life is something that all living things have built into them to do." - Templar


-- You couldn't be more wrong. I have known people - some for decades - who have committed suicide,

Mental illness was not the cause of their decision.

The inability to deal with the despair and perceived hopelessness of their situations, some rather prolonged, were the deciding factors for them.

Good people, given a perfect storm of events, emotions, etc. can make this incredibly horrible decision.

All have their breaking points (although not all lead to suicide). They arrive earlier for some than for others.

Has mental illness beee a factor in some? Absolutely. Just like alcohol and drugs.

But a blanket claim that mental illness is the sole reason is completely incorrect.



.

 

[TexUs]

If you don't think suicides got to Hell, then what why do you think that my statement is such a bad thing.

First of all, I think most suicides go to hell because again, I can't fathom why a Christian would do it.
Second of all, I disagree with your statement because I think metal illness is an unBiblical concept crafted by a society that wants an excuse and justification for everything.

it is the Devil that gives people thoughts of suicide, in an attempt to lead us away from God, but God's love is stronger and he knows the differnce between wilful sinning and doing something wrong when he are not mentally capable of normal reasonning.

THIS is what I say is accurate.
No "mental illness" crap, but work of the evil spirits.

Now, I don't think it's possible for them to control your thoughts (to actually force you to kill yourself) unless they actually posses you. And as Jesus said, the temple cannot be divided. A Christian housing Christ will not be able to house an evil spirit.
Which again is why I think people that commit suicide are most likely, not Christians.

I think people that display "metal illness" are people influenced heavily and most likely, possessed by, evil spirits and God does not dwell within them.

 

[aspen]

We simply do not know if people who kill themselves end up in Heaven or Hell - it is all speculation.

First of all, I think most suicides go to hell because again, I can't fathom why a Christian would do it.
Second of all, I disagree with your statement because I think metal illness is an unBiblical concept crafted by a society that wants an excuse and justification for everything.


THIS is what I say is accurate.
No "mental illness" crap, but work of the evil spirits.

Now, I don't think it's possible for them to control your thoughts (to actually force you to kill yourself) unless they actually posses you. And as Jesus said, the temple cannot be divided. A Christian housing Christ will not be able to house an evil spirit.
Which again is why I think people that commit suicide are most likely, not Christians.

I think people that display "metal illness" are people influenced heavily and most likely, possessed by, evil spirits and God does not dwell within them.

Have you ever met a person who has been diagnosed with a mental illness?

 

[Fire-7]

[/color]
I wasn't aware the Jewish cared about the English name for God.



It's actually not confusing. I do suggest, if you're leaning on a teaching of some other person to form your beliefs, Google both sides of the issue and study both sides, and all applicable passages, for yourself, before forming an opinion.


Yes and no...

Sin is doing anything contrary to God's law.

You can sin by getting plastered drunk. It doesn't necessarily mean you've rejected God (though in a sense, it does- hence why I said yes and no).

Since I brought it up, let me just use it as an example. Let's suppose you had a problem with drinking. You meet Christ, you're beating that problem.
However, you know if you drink: you might give into the temptation and just go all out again.

Intentionally starting to drink, when you know you can't keep from getting drunk... Would be a blatant and intentional sin. Is this a habitual thing? Does sin like this reign in your life? This is what John was talking about, sins that lead to death... These are the sins he talks about that don't mark a true Christian.

It is in reference to the Jews that speak english. This is what I have heard. I don't know history that thoroughly. I don't know if it's the orthodox Jews or unorthodox Jews. I just heard of the concept and decided to start using it.


I have listened to both sides of the argument. And this is why it IS confusing. Both sides use just as many references. And you would have to actually listen to Stone's teaching for yourself to understand why I placed emphasis on it.

 

[TexUs]

I have listened to both sides of the argument. And this is why it IS confusing. Both sides use just as much thorough references. And you would have to actually listen to Stone's teaching for yourself to understand why I placed emphasis on it.

So are you saying the Bible contradicts itself, or have you learned how to reconcile the differences?

 

[Fire-7]

So are you saying the Bible contradicts itself, or have you learned how to reconcile the differences?

Yes I'm saying that the bible contradicts itself many times. Someone even showed me a blatant contradiction within the gospels. I'm sorry I don't remember where or exactly what they were, but it had something to do with the ressurrection story of Christ. There were clear and blatantly different details of the same account. And I know about the snowball concept; where the story that gets passed on changes with the individuals. I've heard it all before. But for people to claim that a book is so maticulous, when you get down to the intricate details, the bible has numerous contradictions, that are not "paradoxes" but dichotomies. I don't have time to go through them all. I would be be here all night. And those are just the ones I know of, and I haven't even read 1/3 of the bible for myself. I'm not saying that the bible is invalid (I wouldn't be here if I was sold on that). I'm just stating the fact that you would have to be either blind (physically) or in blatant denial not to see that something isn't adding up. And while christianity advoctes "blind faith", it is the perfect recipe for gullibility.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Yes I'm saying that the bible contradicts itself many times. Someone even showed me a blatant contradiction within the gospels. I'm sorry I don't remember where or exactly what they were, but it had something to do with the ressurrection story of Christ. There were clear and blatantly different details of the same account. And I know about the snowball concept; where the story that gets passed on changes with the individuals. I've heard it all before. But for people to claim that a book is so maticulous, when you get down to the intricate details, the bible has numerous contradictions, that are not "paradoxes" but dichotomies. I don't have time to go through them all. I would be be here all night. And those are just the ones I know of, and I haven't even read 1/3 of the bible for myself. I'm not saying that the bible is invalid (I wouldn't be here if I was sold on that). I'm just stating the fact that you would have to be either blind (physically) or in blatant denial not to see that something isn't adding up. And while christianity advoctes "blind faith", it is the perfect recipe for gullibility.

There are some things that certainly seeem contradictory in the Bible. 2 big reasons for this,, maybe more,,,, 1st reason is, it's impossible for man to understand the word of God without God revealing it. 2nd, is the writing styles and the viewpoint of the one giving account of what they experienced. One person who is more poetic (the greek) will describe things different than someone who is more straight forward (the Hebrew).

As an example, One may describe the summer time as the dragons breath,,,,,,,,"I rose to the mid day as the dragons breath blasted the face of the earth, searing the sands as even to make them glass." Another may describe the same scene as, "I woke up late in the day. It was hot out!"

Which person is wrong? The reader without knowledge of the one writing.

 

[Templar81]

No "mental illness" crap, but work of the evil spirits.

They caled them evil spirits back then because they didn't know what they didn't have the science that we have now I'm still not saying demons don't exist but I would say that not every illness is caused by a demon or some kind of evil spirit. I mean when you get a cold, I bet you don't think it is a demon, so something like chronic depression or extreme paranoia it isn't forced to be a demon because the human mind is a very complicated thing and even scripture can't explain it because the Bible isn't a science book.

Mental illness is a blanket term I know but let's take one type; DEPRESSION

Extreme depression can cause a person to feel suicidal can it not. It isn't a good state of mind to be in. You loose sight of reality and to put it bluntly, you cease to be in your right mind because you can't think clearly. If you have suicidal thoughts, which are so contrary to nature thenhow can you possibly be in the right mind.

 

[TexUs]

Yes I'm saying that the bible contradicts itself many times. Someone even showed me a blatant contradiction within the gospels. I'm sorry I don't remember where or exactly what they were, but it had something to do with the ressurrection story of Christ. There were clear and blatantly different details of the same account. And I know about the snowball concept; where the story that gets passed on changes with the individuals. I've heard it all before. But for people to claim that a book is so maticulous, when you get down to the intricate details, the bible has numerous contradictions, that are not "paradoxes" but dichotomies. I don't have time to go through them all. I would be be here all night. And those are just the ones I know of, and I haven't even read 1/3 of the bible for myself. I'm not saying that the bible is invalid (I wouldn't be here if I was sold on that). I'm just stating the fact that you would have to be either blind (physically) or in blatant denial not to see that something isn't adding up. And while christianity advoctes "blind faith", it is the perfect recipe for gullibility.

Do you believe God contradicts himself?

The Scripture says it's all breathed by God.

A God that can contradict himself is a God that can lie- that's not the same God I worship.

They caled them evil spirits back then because they didn't know

So the Bible is wrong?

what they didn't have the science that we have now I'm still not saying demons don't exist but I would say that not every illness is caused by a demon or some kind of evil spirit. I mean when you get a cold, I bet you don't think it is a demon, so something like chronic depression or extreme paranoia it isn't forced to be a demon because the human mind is a very complicated thing and even scripture can't explain it because the Bible isn't a science book.

Getting a cold is obviously just germs and such.

Depression is a condition, I would say, that is a total crock.
You trace depression back to root causes and I'd bet you, it'll always come back around to SIN. It's not a "mental disorder"... It's caused by sin.

Now... Can we physically treat this with chemicals in the brain, yes... (Which is also, IMO, no different than just getting high on marijuana) But that's not what I'm talking about.

 

[Fire-7]

There are some things that certainly seeem contradictory in the Bible. 2 big reasons for this,, maybe more,,,, 1st reason is, it's impossible for man to understand the word of God without God revealing it. 2nd, is the writing styles and the viewpoint of the one giving account of what they experienced. One person who is more poetic (the greek) will describe things different than someone who is more straight forward (the Hebrew).

As an example, One may describe the summer time as the dragons breath,,,,,,,,"I rose to the mid day as the dragons breath blasted the face of the earth, searing the sands as even to make them glass." Another may describe the same scene as, "I woke up late in the day. It was hot out!"

Which person is wrong? The reader without knowledge of the one writing.

I'm not talking about the form in which the things are written. That's really a given. I'm talking about as-clear-as-day contradictions. Like someone saying they saw me with all green on, walking down the street with two women. Then another person saying they saw me with all white on, running down the street with a pack of dogs. There are contrdictions like this in the bible. And it makes you wonder, if they got details like this wrong, what ELSE might they have gotten wrong?

 

[Disciple]

The bible doesnt contradict itself.. Theres differences in the gospels because theyre written by different people.

 

[TexUs]

I'm not talking about the form in which the things are written. That's really a given. I'm talking about as-clear-as-day contradictions. Like someone saying they saw me with all green on, walking down the street with two women. Then another person saying they saw me with all white on, running down the street with a pack of dogs. There are contrdictions like this in the bible. And it makes you wonder, if they got details like this wrong, what ELSE might they have gotten wrong?

It's kindof easy to make an argument against something without any proof. I don't see any passages that've been posted by you.

 

[Templar81]

So the Bible is wrong?

The Bible came together in a very low tech era, so they jsut didn't have the science to explain disease and disorders, so they blamed spirits becuase they didn't udnerstand about bacteria and virusses. netiher di they understand the chemicals in the brain.

The Bible was written by men, it didn't jsut float down from heaven and as such it is written in accordance with man's experience. That is why spirits are often used to explain illness.

By dismissing genuine mental problems you are denying irrefutable scientific evidence and decades of painstaking research.

 

[TexUs]

The Bible came together in a very low tech era, so they jsut didn't have the science to explain disease and disorders, so they blamed spirits becuase they didn't udnerstand about bacteria and virusses. netiher di they understand the chemicals in the brain.

The Bible was written by men, it didn't jsut float down from heaven and as such it is written in accordance with man's experience. That is why spirits are often used to explain illness.

By dismissing genuine mental problems you are denying irrefutable scientific evidence and decades of painstaking research.

If the Bible says it's a SPIRIT, and you say it's not... Then the Bible is wrong.

It's a yes or no question.

Is the Bible wrong?

 

[calbhach]

Every sin that a Christian commits will be forgiven, even suicide. Jesus tells us this:

Mark 3:23-29 - So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Matthew 12:31-32 - Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people,but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoeverspeaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoeverspeaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this ageor in the age to come.

Therefor, even if a Christian commits suicide, even being sinful, we will still be forgiven. Only blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

Just thought I'd pop that in here. ^^

 

[Templar81]

If a man writing 2000 years ago said it is a spirit then I would assume he was drawing from his vocabularya nd experience. It is wrong, but it doesn't fully hold water in this day and age.

If for example Mark said there was a spirit or demon then Mark would be drawing from his own experience and just because Mark used a defunct term doesn't discredit the whole of scripture.

In short the Bible is not wrong, it is never wrong but you have to read between the lines and move with the tiems.

 

[TexUs]

If a man writing 2000 years ago said it is a spirit then I would assume he was drawing from his vocabularya nd experience.

So the Bible isn't actually God-breathed, inspired, and the writers weren't actually writing what God commanded them?

 

[Templar81]

Don't go putting words in people's mouths. You can't tie me down to saying that.

We'll talk about that on another thread if you like as I feel we have deviated somewhat from the topic in hand.