Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Randy Kluth]

I disagree with you. The ending of sacrifices and/or placing of the abomination is mentioned in Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12. So your theory doesn't carry much weight according to the written Word of God.


Not interested 'how many' believe this or that. What God's written Word says is what is important, not popular belief. And because all those Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12 chapters link the same subject about the abomination of desolation, that's enough pointer to the final one who causes that being the Antichrist at the end of this world.


The 70th week is... a full "one week". Sorry, write your own Bible and call it something else if you want, as long as you tell people it's not the 'real' Bible of God's Word. But don't do that on a Christian forum like this one or any other, unless you want to be marked as an anti-Biblical subversive, which often means a Judaizer trying to hide as a Christian.

Angry man.

 

[Davy]

Angry man.

What? I'm angry just because I revealed how far you have strayed from the written Word of God? You're funny!

 

[Randy Kluth]

What? I'm angry just because I revealed how far you have strayed from the written Word of God? You're funny!

No, I'm not angry. You sound angry. You don't seem to have learned the Christians can disagree agreeably?

 

[Davy]

No, I'm not angry. You sound angry. You don't seem to have learned the Christians can disagree agreeably?

You confuse 'amazement'... with anger. That is what you're missing in my responses.

I am amazed... at your Biblical illiteracy on many things in The Bible. But you're not alone here; there are quite a few that post in forums which 'try'... to act like they are studied in God's Word when really they lack much Bible study.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You confuse 'amazement'... with anger. That is what you're missing in my responses.

I am amazed... at your Biblical illiteracy on many things in The Bible. But you're not alone here; there are quite a few that post in forums which 'try'... to act like they are studied in God's Word when really they lack much Bible study.

Don't confuse biblical illiteracy with Christian disagreement.

 

[Davy]

Don't confuse biblical illiteracy with Christian disagreement.

Now that's coining a new meaningless term!

Biblical illiteracy is what I am pointing to, which means one who has not done enough of their homework in God's Word, and that happens most often by their heeding men's doctrines either from the pulpit or from men's commentaries. God expects us to understand by thinking for ourselves in His Word using common sense. And as long as we follow His Word which He showed how to do it, per Isaiah 28, then that along with Faith and prayer, He will open our understanding. And for today, much Bible prophecy that Bible commentators of the past didn't understand, has today been opened to those who actually study like He showed to do.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Now that's coining a new meaningless term!

Biblical illiteracy is what I am pointing to, which means one who has not done enough of their homework in God's Word, and that happens most often by their heeding men's doctrines either from the pulpit or from men's commentaries. God expects us to understand by thinking for ourselves in His Word using common sense. And as long as we follow His Word which He showed how to do it, per Isaiah 28, then that along with Faith and prayer, He will open our understanding. And for today, much Bible prophecy that Bible commentators of the past didn't understand, has today been opened to those who actually study like He showed to do.

You don't strike me as particularly educated on these subjects, though I could be wrong. Don't know why that is?

As to my own knowledge, I believe I'm fairly well informed. Not only that but I'm hardly "in bed" with particular schools of biblical prophecy. I've taken pieces of many of them. I do have labels, however, for purposes of simplification.

So you come across as a somewhat-combative debater, as opposed to a calm participant in reasonable discussions. I think you should drop the insults that many seem to encourage here, and try to civilize this forum and this particular subject more?

 

[Davy]

You don't strike me as particularly educated on these subjects, though I could be wrong. Don't know why that is?

As to my own knowledge, I believe I'm fairly well informed. Not only that but I'm hardly "in bed" with particular schools of biblical prophecy. I've taken pieces of many of them. I do have labels, however, for purposes of simplification.

So you come across as a somewhat-combative debater, as opposed to a calm participant in reasonable discussions. I think you should drop the insults that many seem to encourage here, and try to civilize this forum and this particular subject more?

I've got to laugh. You don't impress me at all, since you try to completely... change the simple Daniel 9 Scripture into something unrecognizable. That kind of work is done by charlatans, just like the many fake scholars who work to 'change' what God's Word reveals, even God's Truth is not just in one Book or verse, but even that is confirmed in several Bible Books and verses!

I thank God that He covered a topic in several different Bible Scriptures so as to defeat false workings like you have shown with your abuse of simple Scripture in the Book of Daniel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've got to laugh. You don't impress me at all, since you try to completely... change the simple Daniel 9 Scripture into something unrecognizable. That kind of work is done by charlatans, just like the many fake scholars who work to 'change' what God's Word reveals, even God's Truth is not just in one Book or verse, but even that is confirmed in several Bible Books and verses!

I thank God that He covered a topic in several different Bible Scriptures so as to defeat false workings like you have shown with your abuse of simple Scripture in the Book of Daniel.

I think I got my answer on whether you wish to be "more civilized" in these discussions. I'll be paying less attention to your posts.

 

[Davy]

I think I got my answer on whether you wish to be "more civilized" in these discussions. I'll be paying less attention to your posts.

Impossible to be civilized with someone who 'butchers' The Word of God like you do in order to serve the agenda of men you're on. You need to repent to Christ before it's too late. And then you need to proclaim the times in Daniel 9 as written, instead of falsely claiming the final 70th week was completed back in history, when you 'know' it was not.

 

[Truth7t7]

Impossible to be civilized with someone who 'butchers' The Word of God like you do in order to serve the agenda of men you're on. You need to repent to Christ before it's too late. And then you need to proclaim the times in Daniel 9 as written, instead of falsely claiming the final 70th week was completed back in history, when you 'know' it was not.

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy "Future" Literal Weeks Explained

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then just show me what parts of teh New Covenant have been fulfilled? It is that easy!

Jeremiah 31:31-37​

​

King James Version​

​

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Just point to averse and then show me when and where or how it has been fulfilled.

All of it. It's just that easy. There's no such thing as a partial fulfillment of the new covenant. It was fully established by the shed blood of Christ, as scripture teaches. It's just that easy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am just asking you to show me which parts of the Newq Covenant are fulfilled? Why is that so difficult for you to do?????

I have already answered this multiple times! Why do you act as if I haven't? I'm not going to spoon feed scripture to you as if you are a toddler. I showed the scripture which indicates that the new covenant was fully established by the blood of Christ and how Paul talked how he and the other disciples were ministers of the new covenant. So, your starting point should be having the understanding that the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ and then you should understand Jeremiah 31:31-37 accordingly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Some commentators are inclined to identify this “altar” as the altar of incense mentioned under the seventh seal (Rev. 8:1–6). But the reference to “blood” (instead of “incense”) in Revelation 6:9–11 leads us to see here an allusion to the altar of burnt offering, where the blood of the sacrifices was poured (Lev. 4:18, 30, 34). As the blood of those sacrifices was sprinkled around the altar, so the blood of the martyrs was symbolically poured at God’s altar when, by remaining faithful to the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 6:9; see also Rev. 12:17, Rev. 14:12), they lost their lives. See also
KJV Genesis 4:10
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.


The “souls” under the altar also are symbolic. By taking them literally, one would have to conclude that the martyrs are not fully happy in heaven, for they are still crying out for vengeance. This hardly sounds as if they are enjoying the reward of salvation. The desire for vengeance can make your life miserable. But your death, as well?

Also, it’s important to remember that John was not given a view of heaven as it actually is. “There are no white, red, black, or pale horses there with warlike riders. Jesus does not appear there in the form of a lamb with a bleeding knife wound. The four beasts do not represent actual winged creatures of the animal characteristics noted. . . . Likewise, there are no ‘souls’ lying at the base of an altar in heaven. The whole scene was a pictorial and symbolic representation.

Yes, I understand that there is symbolism there, but you're taking it too far. What the symbolism implies is that those who are physically/bodily dead are conscious in heaven. Luke 16:19-31 very strongly indicates that those who are physically dead and in hell are conscious as well.

Do you deny that people have souls? Scripture indicates that we all have a body, a soul and a spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul taught that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. So, there is clearly a part of us besides our bodies that is alive even after we physically/bodily die and that part of us goes to heaven to be with the Lord when we physically/bodily die.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would you jump to such a conclusion? What I'm denying is the church's penchant for believing some animated entity, be it soul or spirit, should go directly to an afterlife...be it purgatory, heaven, or hell, or some other Valhalla or whatever. The soul is not a being in and of itself outside the body. It is the composite of body and breath/spirit that forms the soul...a living being. The moment any part of that combination of taken away in death, the should ceases to be. Hence the numerous passages throughout scripture that express that our thoughts, our plans, even our worship and praise, does not happen in death. Which is why the Christian hope it's and always had been bound up in the resurrection. The resurrection of Christ is proof that one day... The last day according to Jesus... He would come again and raise us to life.

You just don't get it. Is God a God of the dead or of the living? He is a God of the living, right? And He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are completely dead (body, soul and spirit) then God would not be their God.

Moses and Elijah appeared at Jesus's transfiguration and they knew Jesus and talked with him. How could that be the case if people no longer have any consciousness at all after they physically/bodily die?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've fulfilled it.

Every Blood-bought child of God who understands the New Covenant has fulfilled it.

By your own insistent declaration, you have not fulfilled it.

There you have it, folks.

An ideology of craven cowardice and spiritual stupefaction, which professes Christianity, but which refuses to answer the most fundamentally important Scriptural question which can be asked of any individual, and which always elicits a ringing "Yes" from every member of the household of faith:

Is your iniquity forgiven, and is your sin remembered no more?

The integral, indispensable, and essential test of the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ, and the Salvation which that Blood bought at Calvary.

You cannot live in the Spirit without it.

Amen. It's very disturbing when I see people on here who can't even grasp the fundamentals of Christianity. It makes me wonder what do they understand about Christianity? Nothing?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

* The book of Revelation concerns the People of Israel, and is the culmination of prophecy concerning them: for it is only they who will fulfil the role allotted to them by God: to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exodus 19:6) in that day.

Why is the book not addressed to churches in Israel then? Instead, it was addressed to churches in the ancient Roman province of Asia.

 

[Truth7t7]

You just don't get it. Is God a God of the dead or of the living? He is a God of the living, right? And He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are completely dead (body, soul and spirit) then God would not be their God.

Moses and Elijah appeared at Jesus's transfiguration and they knew Jesus and talked with him. How could that be the case if people no longer have any consciousness at all after they physically/bodily die?

The poster is a 7th Day Adventist I believe, a follower of the false prophetess in the cult of Ellen G. White and her false teachings in "Soul Sleep"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I took my time and began to read slowly. Reading slow did not help your case, even in its triplicate. I presented specifics in the argument that you have not addressed. Instead of talking about them, you repeat copy and paste. Hardly an antidotal defense.

If Satan is currently sealed in prison, it assumes he is in the bottom less pit. All that is left is for him to be released and then defeated and cast into the lake of fire. But there is a major problem. Revelation 16 states:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

If the Dragon is present here, you are assuming he has been released from the bottomless pit as you said READ SLOW and you maintain above its at the battle of Armageddon. Well, if he already entered the pit BEFORE Armageddon and he is seen here walking around, how do you contend with Rev 19 stating:

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Where is the Dragon? He isnt in the Lake of fire. Read Slow now Truth. VERY SLOW. The False Prophet and the Beast of the sea are in the lake of Fire and the Dragon isnt. WHY? Remember there is no Chapter breaks...

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,

It's because he never was imprisoned otherwise, he'd be destroyed WITH them in the same lake. Its not till AFTER the 1k years expire that we see:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are

Huh, look at that. When you read slow, you get answers. The dragon isnt cast in the lake of fire after Armageddon with the other 2. He must be in prison after then for 1k years and then will join them "where the beast and the false prophet are". Sound scriptural facts gained by slow reading and vivid research.

Do you think that the events written about in the book of Revelation are all in chronological order from beginning to end? It seems so. But, that is not the case. The final wrath of Christ that will come down when He returns is referenced several times in the book of Revelation, including Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 11:15-18, Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 16:17-21, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9.

There are several recapitulations or parallels in the book that look at events from different angles all culminating in the glorious return of Jesus Christ at which time He will gather His own to Himself and destroy all of His enemies.

 

[Trekson]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians
2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

This does not take away a future physical resurrection at the end of our world.

Unlikely, seeing as Rev. was written 30 yrs. after Paul died. Theses verses are not a reality but are spoken forward in faith per Heb. 11:1. Those of Rev. 20:4 are part of the raptured/resurrected church from Rev. 7:9, 14. There is no resurrection at the time of Rev. 20:4, it is just explaining where they came from. The church, as a whole, is the latter fruit of the 1st resurrection