Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Trekson]

Do you think that the events written about in the book of Revelation are all in chronological order from beginning to end? It seems so. But, that is not the case. The final wrath of Christ that will come down when He returns is referenced several times in the book of Revelation, including Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 11:15-18, Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 16:17-21, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9.

There are several recapitulations or parallels in the book that look at events from different angles all culminating in the glorious return of Jesus Christ at which time He will gather His own to Himself and destroy all of His enemies.

They are all different.

 

[Truth7t7]

Unlikely, seeing as Rev. was written 30 yrs. after Paul died. Theses verses are not a reality but are spoken forward in faith per Heb. 11:1. Those of Rev. 20:4 are part of the raptured/resurrected church from Rev. 7:9, 14. There is no resurrection at the time of Rev. 20:4, it is just explaining where they came from. The church, as a whole, is the latter fruit of the 1st resurrection

No resurrection of the believer is seen in Revelation 20:4 as you claim

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

They are all different.

They are all the same in "Parallel" teachings

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They are all different.

They all portray the final wrath of God/Christ, so how can that be? What evidence do you have to back that up?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Amen. It's very disturbing when I see people on here who can't even grasp the fundamentals of Christianity. It makes me wonder what do they understand about Christianity? Nothing?

What's very disturbing is that you can't see how other Christians view these things in proper Christian terms? If others don't agree with you, they're "unable to grasp" biblical fundamentals?

Let me speak this as plainly as I can. I've said it many times. The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 does not, in the eyes of many Premills, refer to Jesus' 1st Coming, but rather, to the *application of Jesus' Cross" at the end of the age!

In other words, Premills like myself would admit that Jesus' Cross did take place at his 1st Coming. But Jer 31 is applying that Covenant to the Jewish People and to the Israeli nation *at the end of the age,* when Christ returns.

I don't care if you disagree with this. I'm only concerned that you continue to mislabel Premills as "unconventional" or "ignorant" if they don't apply Jer 31 as you do, to Jesus' 1st Coming and to the Cross, where the New Covenant was initiated.

Please be advised that applying this prophecy to Israel at the end of the age does *not* mean that Premills deny the New Covenant was initiated at Jesus' 1st Coming!

 

[ewq1938]

There is no resurrection at the time of Rev. 20:4

There is a resurrection there, called the first resurrection because it is the first of two large resurrections.

 

[Brakelite]

What the symbolism implies is that those who are physically/bodily dead are conscious in heaven.

Which contradicts the rest of scripture. And the parable of the rich man and Lazarus can't be used as a theological treatise on the state of the dead, seeing it contradicts your own interpretation of souls under the altar. Unless you also think those souls can see people in hell, have fingers and eyes and other body parts which are not even resurrected yet. Unless you also believe these should already have their glorified bodies... Now it's just getting totally confusing. Why not just believe Jesus when He described Lazarus as asleep? As were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not completely dead, annihilation doesn't take place for another 1000 years. Asleep, waiting to be woken up. .

The poster is a 7th Day Adventist I believe, a follower of the false prophetess in the cult of Ellen G. White and her false teachings in "Soul Sleep"

Ellen White, along with Luther, and numerous Christians throughout history, agree with Jesus that those in their graves are asleep, awaiting the Christian hope, the resurrection. Nowhere in scripture did any NT writer promise any follower of Jesus that they would immediately go to heaven or hell when they died. But numerous times Paul, and others, wrote of the resurrection, all of them taking their teaching and understanding from Jesus Himself, who in John 5 and 6 spoke about 5 times concerning the fact that on the last day He personally would come again and raise up those who loved and obeyed Him. Believe it or not.

 

[Brakelite]

No resurrection of the believer is seen in Revelation 20:4 as you claim

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

All very good quotes. Yet you believe Christians are already in heaven. Make up your mind.

 

[Davy]

Unlikely, seeing as Rev. was written 30 yrs. after Paul died. Theses verses are not a reality but are spoken forward in faith per Heb. 11:1. Those of Rev. 20:4 are part of the raptured/resurrected church from Rev. 7:9, 14. There is no resurrection at the time of Rev. 20:4, it is just explaining where they came from. The church, as a whole, is the latter fruit of the 1st resurrection

Now that is a confusing un-Biblical false statement.

Revelation 20:4 IS... about the resurrection that will happen on the day of Christ's future return.

Jesus and His Apostles Paul and Peter even revealed what 'day' that is. It will be the "day of the Lord" that comes "as a thief in the night." Jesus even said He comes "as a thief".

That is the day when Jesus said ALL in the graves will come forth, those who did good to the "resurrection of life", and those who did evil to the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which contradicts the rest of scripture.

No, it does not. Don't just say things like this without backing them up. Your words mean nothing without scriptural support to back them up.

And the parable of the rich man and Lazarus can't be used as a theological treatise on the state of the dead, seeing it contradicts your own interpretation of souls under the altar.

I don't claim that the souls are literally, physically under an altar. We're talking about souls here, not bodies. The point is that it portrays them as being conscious. We don't know what it's like exactly in heaven and it's not my point to talk about that. But, you are denying the obvious here which is that it strongly implies that they are conscious there.

Unless you also think those souls can see people in hell, have fingers and eyes and other body parts which are not even resurrected yet. Unless you also believe these should already have their glorified bodies... Now it's just getting totally confusing.

Scripture is very clear that there is more to us than just our bodies. Why do you not get that? I'm afraid you have been duped by false SDA teaching.

Why not just believe Jesus when He described Lazarus as asleep?

Again, you're not differentiating between His body and His soul and spirit. Why you don't differentiate between them is beyond me. Paul did. He indicated that it's better to be away from the body because that means you're present with the Lord. That shows that you can be present with the Lord without a body. You are just denying the obvious here because you have allowed a denomination to dictate your beliefs.

As were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not completely dead, annihilation doesn't take place for another 1000 years. Asleep, waiting to be woken up. .

Annihilation? That is not taught anywhere in scripture. Scripture teaches that the wicked will experience eternal torment (Rev 14:10-12).

Ellen White, along with Luther, and numerous Christians throughout history, agree with Jesus that those in their graves are asleep, awaiting the Christian hope, the resurrection.

Their bodies are asleep/dead. It is their bodies that need to be resurrected, not their souls and spirits.

Nowhere in scripture did any NT writer promise any follower of Jesus that they would immediately go to heaven or hell when they died.

Jesus promised the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise (Luke 23:43), so you are very wrong about this. You have been led astray by false teaching on things like this.

But numerous times Paul, and others, wrote of the resurrection, all of them taking their teaching and understanding from Jesus Himself, who in John 5 and 6 spoke about 5 times concerning the fact that on the last day He personally would come again and raise up those who loved and obeyed Him. Believe it or not.

The resurrection of the BODY, not the soul and spirit. Your inability to differentiate between the BODY and the soul and spirit baffles me.

 

[Brakelite]

But, you are denying the obvious here which is that it strongly implies that they are conscious there.

You have built an entire doctrine, teaching that others are heretics if they disagree, all on an implication. Mmm

Scripture is very clear that there is more to us than just our bodies.

Not denying that, in fact of I remember correctly, I made that very point in my first post on this thread... "And God breathed into him the breath of life, and man became a living soul". The actual implications of that one verse seems to escape you.

Paul did. He indicated that it's better to be away from the body because that means you're present with the Lord

Did he? Really? Is that really what he was saying there?

Their bodies are asleep/dead. It is their bodies that need to be resurrected, not their souls and spirits.

Compare your belief here with Genesis 2:7

Jesus promised the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise (Luke 23:43),

Read that again and remove the comma. It can be easily and more than justifiably read that Jesus, that day, promised the thief he would one day be with Jesus in paradise. More justifiable because Jesus didn't go to paradise, or anywhere else until after He rose from the dead.

Your inability to differentiate between the BODY and the soul and spirit baffles me.

That's because you haven't studied the topic thoroughly, afraid that you will come to the same inevitable conclusions as that terribly deceived cult, the Seventh Day Adventists.

No annihilation? I am what would be called in most Christian churches, an annihilationist. I make absolutely no apologies for that. To anybody. For two prime reasons.
1. Any alternative, particularly but by no means exclusively, eternal torment, utterly disgusts me. Of all so called Christian doctrines promulgated non stop from Christian pulpits, and forums, the concept that the God of love, mercy, grace, justice, goodness, and truth would even consider the idea of deliberately keeping men, women, and children alive for ever in a state of constant non stop agony as punishment for a few short years of unbelief is the most insulting and blasphemous mischaracterisation of God on the planet. And considering it is shared by other heathen pagan religions as well should alert Christians that something is dreadfully wrong with their ideas. But no. Rather than humble themselves and revise their studies, they double down and call those who disagree with them heretics and not understanding the justice of God. Yet if a human in some horror movie invented a means by which to do the same as this make believe God they claim to know he would be rightly condemned as the most evil of creatures, yet at the same time justifying God for doing the same.

2. Annihilation is Biblical. Oh, you didn't know? You thought we invented the idea of of thin air? You think man is naturally immortal so cannot surely die despite the Bible declaring unequivocally that he can and does die? And is never resurrected a second time? Do you claim God's word as the basis for your faith? Then read on....

DESTRUCTION
KJV Psalms 145:20
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
KJV Psalms 101:8
8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.
KJV Psalms 37:38
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Psalms 92:7
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
KJV Proverbs 13:13
13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
KJV Proverbs 10:29
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
KJV Philippians 3:19
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
KJV 1 Timothy 6:9
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
KJV Matthew 7:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
PERISH
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Proverbs 19:9
9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
KJV Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
KJV John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:10
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
KJV 2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
BURNT UP
KJV Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV Hebrews 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
CONSUMED
KJV Isaiah 1:28
28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Psalms 104:35
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
DEVOURED
KJV Psalms 21:9
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
KJV Hebrews 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV Revelation 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
CUT OFF FROM THE EARTH
KJV Psalms 37:2, 9, 22, 28, 34, 38
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Proverbs 2:22
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
PERDITION... UTTER RUIN
KJV Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
KJV 2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
CEASE TO EXIST
KJV Psalms 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

 

[Trekson]

There is a resurrection there, called the first resurrection because it is the first of two large resurrections.

Jesus was the firstfruits of the first resurrection. Where there are "first" fruits there are "later" fruits. The church is the latter day fruit of the first resurrection. Those in Rev. 20:4 are part of the raptured/resurrected church from Rev. 7:9,14.

 

[Trekson]

Now that is a confusing un-Biblical false statement.

Revelation 20:4 IS... about the resurrection that will happen on the day of Christ's future return.

Jesus and His Apostles Paul and Peter even revealed what 'day' that is. It will be the "day of the Lord" that comes "as a thief in the night." Jesus even said He comes "as a thief".

That is the day when Jesus said ALL in the graves will come forth, those who did good to the "resurrection of life", and those who did evil to the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).

There are two resurrections, the one for the church of believers and maybe Israeli saints and the rest of the world at the GWTJ "after" the millennium. They will be judged by either belief or unbelief or if they had no knowledge of Christ and his word they will be judged on their works based on the innate knowledge of good and evil inside us all, imo.

 

[Trekson]

They all portray the final wrath of God/Christ, so how can that be? What evidence do you have to back that up?

An understanding of scripture. Rev. 6 is the beginning of the day of the Lord, Rev. 11 is the break in time between the wrath of the Lamb (the seals) and the wrath of God (the vials) and is looking forward to the results "after" Armageddon which is the time of judgment for the living world. The Matt. 25 separation of the shhep and the goats is just before the millennium and Rev. 20 is 'after" the millennium and the end of the day of the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus was the firstfruits of the first resurrection. Where there are "first" fruits there are "later" fruits. The church is the latter day fruit of the first resurrection. Those in Rev. 20:4 are part of the raptured/resurrected church from Rev. 7:9,14.

Rev 7 isn't the rapture and the saints in 20:4 are resurrected not raptured.

 

[Truth7t7]

Annihilation is Biblical.

Says the false prophetess Ellen G.White, and the cult of 7th Day Adventism that you follow

Add to that Ellen's 2,000+ self proclaimed dreams and visions given by God, and you believe her "Lies"

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Trekson]

Rev 7 isn't the rapture and the saints in 20:4 are resurrected not raptured.

Both happen at the same time although the dead in Christ are first by about a millisecond or two. There are no "trib" saints, throughout Rev. they are the still here church.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Do you think that the events written about in the book of Revelation are all in chronological order from beginning to end?

No, I do not think all of Revelation is chronological from beginning to end. There is a chronological format, but it requires understanding parts of John’s vision and where those parts he describes in various ways fits in. There are some parts that are chronological by the words given (ex. after this..and then I saw) but those are not necessarily sequential.

It seems so.

It isn’t. Thanks for asking.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Paul did. He indicated that it's better to be away from the body because that means you're present with the Lord.

Imho, that is not what Paul was saying. He did not say:
Death = Go to Heaven

He did say:
I’d rather leave my fleshly tent and I’d rather be in my heavenly tent. That heavenly tent is the one that is given to us at the 2nd Advent. Paul was saying the same thing we all want. I too would rather not be here but in my immortal incorruptible body.

2Cor 5:1
We have a our fleshly body (corruptible) and a heavenly body (uncorrupted) once we are resurrected/raptured

2: we want the new immortal body Christ will give us
3. In the resurrection the spirit would not be naked
4: while in this corruptible body, we await for the day we get a new body that is immortal. Oh death, where is thy sting…
6: while we are alive in a corrupted body, we do not have that new uncorrupted body
8: we would rather not be in a corrupted body and instead have an uncorrupted body thereby we would be with Christ
9: we strive that whether we are alive in our fleshly body at his coming or dead, we may please him
10: because we must appear before the bema seat

If you cross ref. That above, you’ll find yourself in Romans 8:18-27 which talks about our future glory “awaiting the adoption of our body, the redemption of our body”

 

[WPM]

There are two resurrections, the one for the church of believers and maybe Israeli saints and the rest of the world at the GWTJ "after" the millennium. They will be judged by either belief or unbelief or if they had no knowledge of Christ and his word they will be judged on their works based on the innate knowledge of good and evil inside us all, imo.

• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "resurrection days" (plural)?
• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "judgement days" (plural)?

The Bible only talks about "the resurrection" (singular), never "the resurrections" (plural). That is a Premillennialist innovation. The Bible only talks about “the day of judgment” or "the judgment" (singular), never “judgment days” (plural) or "the judgments" (plural). That is a Premillennialist invention.

For there to be one general judgment then Scripture must also teach one general resurrection. This, I believe, Scripture does in various places.

I believe there is one physical resurrection day that sees one all-encompassing raising of mankind. However, within that one resurrection there are two distinct categories of rising embodied: (1) unto “life,” and (2) unto “damnation.” Notwithstanding, there is an undoubted order to the general resurrection; the dead in Christ will rise first, then the living, etc.