Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Don't you read the rest of your Bible and understand we are all sons of the wicked one unless we repent?
"So, no deterministic reading you have in your mind to worry about."
But, that's exactly what you are doing. You are imposing your belief that one is born destined for either heaven or hell on a figurative story. You assume Jesus is saying what? That the wicked can't change and repent and become good? If that were true, not one person could be saved.
You want to ignore what Jesus had just got done teaching?

20" The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."

A person can start out as good seed and fall away! Or continue on and find out:
"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

All these parables encourage us to get right with God while we can. What you seem to be trying to say is that for many, that isn't a possibility. You are making the whole point of the parables pointless. If there's some destined for heaven and some for hell, nothing will change one from ending up wherever they are destined for. You want to take someone's motivation to follow God away? Tell them everything they do is predestined. Tell them their fate is already decided.

You seem to want to change or modify what Jesus taught His disciples in the parable of the wheat and the tares by your reasoning.

Renniks: You are imposing your belief that one is born destined for either heaven or hell on a figurative story. You assume Jesus is saying what? That the wicked can't change and repent and become good? If that were true, not one person could be saved.
You want to ignore what Jesus had just got done teaching?

I was simply following what Jesus said there sir. I did not impose anything. Why are you so insistent when I did not. My posts gives witness to that. The thing is, you are trying to make the parable say what it does not say, that tares becomes wheat or wheat becomes tares. Not just in there sir. And while you do that, you deny the truth that Jesus is saying there. Well,...

Also, I assumed nothing such as the wicked can't change and repent and become good. See, it is you who is forcing your belief into the parable. There is not even a hint in the parable about that matter sir. Do not add to the parable nor reject the truth that it contains.

You said "If that were true, not one person could be saved." It seems that you really see nothing in the parable that you even argue with that. What do you think of the wheat? Are they not them people who are saved and the tares them people who will be cast into the furnace of fire?

Renniks: A person can start out as good seed and fall away!

The sons of the kingdom (wheat) can, in the process of growth, and may commit sin, or in the language of the parable, may grow bad. But the sower and His servants takes care of them and makes sure that they are restored (saved), ready for the harvest. At the end of the day, they still are wheat ~ they still are sons of the kingdom.

Renniks: "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

That's right. Jesus said in the parable of the wheat and the tares, "30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” It's another way of saying separate the sons of the wicked from the sons of the kingdom.

Renniks: All these parables encourage us to get right with God while we can. What you seem to be trying to say is that for many, that isn't a possibility.

All those parable are about the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. They were given, obviously to those chosen by God, to know (mt. 13:11), but not to others.

Renniks: You want to take someone's motivation to follow God away? Tell them everything they do is predestined. Tell them their fate is already decided.

Why do you want me to do that? Do any of us even know who are chosen, who are predestined? Knowing the truth that some were chosen by God to be God's people and others were not, does not mean we know who are chosen and who are not. For if we knew, then you do have a point. But no Christian knows, not even the apostle Paul. The Christians only know they are among the elect is because of Jesus Christ.

Tong
R0119

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Greetings John C!

2 Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

In the quoted scriptures above, Paul says he suffer trouble as an evil doer for the gospel. But he endure all that for the sake of the elect, so that they, the elect, also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

Who are the elect Paul is referring to there? Obviously, the elect there does not refer to Christians.

The point in this is that, the elect when mentioned in scriptures, does not necessarily mean to refer to the Christians or the converted.

Tong
R0106

*edited: changed 2 Tim. 1 to 2 Tim. 2

Hello Tong,
When Paul writes this some of the elect individuals had already been effectually drawn by God. God has elected a multitude of sinners to be saved In His Son.
So Paul keeps preaching to reach some of those elect individuals who were not saved yet.

 

[Tong2020]

Hello Tong,
When Paul writes this some of the elect individuals had already been effectually drawn by God. God has elected a multitude of sinners to be saved In His Son.
So Paul keeps preaching to reach some of those elect individuals who were not saved yet.

Well, that is plausible. Either that is the case or it is not. Exactly why I said in my post "the elect when mentioned in scriptures, does not necessarily mean to refer to the Christians or the converted."

Greetings Anthony!

Tong
R0120

 

[Dcopymope]

While one can say that we are all predestined to be disobedient little douchebags because of Adam, it cannot be proven that some are "predestined" to be "saved" and others not because of it.

 

[Tong2020]

While one can say that we are all predestined to be disobedient little douchebags because of Adam, it cannot be proven that some are "predestined" to be "saved" and others not because of it.

I disagree to the one who says that "we are all predestined to be disobedient little douchebags because of Adam". For the truth of salvation and the truth that there were people chosen by God (called children of promise by scriptures) to be His people, simply refutes the said position.

Greeting Dcopymope!

Tong
R0121

 

[kcnalp]

Romans 9:16-18 (NKJV)
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Amen Jesus!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God makes Sinners willing to believe he enables them to believe savingly in Jesus. No Center ended up himself will ever believe the gospel saving apart from God and neighboring him to believe

Again, I never said otherwise

But it is not the way fatalists think it is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 9:16-18 (NKJV)
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Amen Jesus!

Yes, God rose Pharaoh (this particular person) and put him in power because he KNEW he would do what God needed him to do.

An omniscient God is blessed in this way. He does not make mistakes

He also did not force pharaoh to do what Pharaoh did not already want to do.

 

[kcnalp]

He also did not force pharaoh to do what Pharaoh did not already want to do.

Exodus 9:12 (NKJV)
12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh;

 

[Renniks]

Why do you want me to do that? Do any of us even know who are chosen, who are predestined?

Because that would be honest and consistent. Instead, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too, by ignoring the implications of your beliefs.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exodus 9:12 (NKJV)
12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh;

The term harden means to strengthen. God used all these things to slowly harden or strengthing Pharaohs heart (Notice, Pharaoh also hardened his heart a few times) so that when it came to the last sign (Passover) pharaohs will was so strengthened that he has no problem sending his army to their deaths.

God strengthened his will. He made it easier to do what he already of his own free will desired to do.

 

[Tong2020]

Because that would be honest and consistent. Instead, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too, by ignoring the implications of your beliefs.

I didn't participate in this forum to lie and be inconsistent, but to actually speak the truth and share the truth, at least as per my reading of scriptures, and have a good and godly conversation with the brethren across the globe.

I guess you believe that those who are foreknown, are also predestined by God. Predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. And who do you think makes that happen, or who do the transformation? That's right, it's God. First, there is no true child of God who continue to live in sin and who, for the liberty he have in Christ, will use it as a license to sin. Second, if he comes to know through his reading the Bible or from a brother, that he is predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, I don't think the true child of God would be less motivated in following God as you supposed.

Tong
R0124

 

[Tong2020]

Back to the thread topic: saved or predestined?

Saved and predestined.

Saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8).

Predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29).

Tong
R0125

 

[Renniks]

don't think the true child of God would be less motivated in following God as you supposed.

Again, you fail to understand that if someone is irresistibly destined for salvation, it follows that others are irresistibly destined to sin. And yes, the true Christian is destined to be conformed to Christ's image, but not irresistibly. Ever meet a perfect Christian? Me neither. But back to the tares, perhaps you missed the part where they are blamed for thier actions? They were not irresistibly caused to be tares, that was thier choice.

 

[Renniks]

Back to the thread topic: saved or predestined?

Saved and predestined.

Saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8).

Predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29).

Tong
R0125

Now you are sounding all arminian. Can you choose to have faith or not?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Now you are sounding all arminian. Can you choose to have faith or not?

If you can not chose to have faith, then it is not realy faith at all.

 

[Candidus]

This double predestination doctrine in my view Causes God to have some serious character flaws. And takes away from his claim to be a God full of mercy and grace

Then who's "sin was paid for" on the Cross?

When was it "Paid For"?

Who was "Paid"?

Can God demand a double payment? Meaning... when Jesus "paid for our sins" 2000 years ago, and "paid for the sins" of the whole world, if everyone is not saved, then where in Scripture does it say that God "un-pays" sins, or that God demands the same payment twice in the unbeliever?

This Penal Substitution Theory was invented to support Double Predestination. The only logical conclusion of the Penal Substitution Theory is Double Predestination, or Universalism. Either all are saved because all sin is already "paid for,' or if the Bible says that most will be lost, we can only suggest that Jesus did not die (pay the sins) for all, but only a select few. These people who's "sins were paid for" are Predestined to heaven, and those sins were not "paid for" 2000 years ago, are Predestined to Hell.

It is best to start with the Bible and determine if the Theory is true, and not the other way around. If you start with the Theory as being true, and read the Bible with that assumption; you can only arrive at an unbiblical conclusion.

 

[kcnalp]

Matthew 22:14 (NKJV)
14 For many are called, but few are CHOSEN."

 

[Candidus]

Renniks: God gave us freewill.

I did not say otherwise. The matter is I am not making free will as some power that can undo what the omnipotent God had predestined, as you do.

To comment on the last paragraph of your post, it says "God is good toward all who accept His goodness.". Why, is He not good to those who don't? If He is not good to them, then does that not imply that He is bad or evil to them? Which of course is a lie.

AW Tozer: He has said, “I’ll allow you, within a little framework, to be your own boss and to choose to go to heaven or to hell.”

Of course God did not say that. AW Tozer obviously is him who said that.

Tong
R0109

There was a sailor that every time he got liberty, he got excessively drunk, fought in bars, and spent all he had left on his money on prostitutes... he said that he was having a great time!

One day, God approached him and laid salvation in his hands; He even gave the sailor the enlightenment to truly understand and believe it is real and true; the question is, having this gift laid in his hands, the offer of salvation from sin and drunkenness, defiling himself with prostitutes, and not spending all his hard earned money on sinful things which would make him have an eternal purpose and happiness...

If the sailor accepts the gift, did he earn it? If he rejects the free gift, was it not ever really offered?

I see nowhere in Scripture that suggests that the individual has to accept a gift, or that they cannot reject a gift. We do not "choose" when, where or how God approaches and offers salvation to an individual; we cannot stop God from offering Free Grace. It is not a matter of "being your own boss," but whether you accept and believe the offer in faith, and don't reject and choose to disbelieve. You see, many choose to disbelieve like this fictional sailor. Many smoke cigarettes, yet "choose to disbelieve" that it is bad for their health. They know, but do otherwise! Many eat unhealthy, practically virtue-free junk food, and "choose to disbelieve" the reports that it is detrimental to them as a person. Most of us at one time or another have "chosen" something we know, or have been enlightened to know that is bad for us as a person. The Free Gift of Salvation is no different. I rejected the clear tug of God on my heart several times before I stopped rejecting it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then who's "sin was paid for" on the Cross?

I think Jesus said it best

Matthew 12:31
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

When was it "Paid For"?

Jesus said , it is finished (tetellisti, literally paid in full)

Who was "Paid"?

Does not make sense please rephrase

Can God demand a double payment? Meaning... when Jesus "paid for our sins" 2000 years ago, and "paid for the sins" of the whole world, if everyone is not saved, then where in Scripture does it say that God "un-pays" sins, or that God demands the same payment twice in the unbeliever?

This Penal Substitution Theory was invented to support Double Predestination. The only logical conclusion of the Penal Substitution Theory is Double Predestination, or Universalism. Either all are saved because all sin is already "paid for,' or if the Bible says that most will be lost, we can only suggest that Jesus did not die (pay the sins) for all, but only a select few. These people who's "sins were paid for" are Predestined to heaven, and those sins were not "paid for" 2000 years ago, are Predestined to Hell.

It is best to start with the Bible and determine if the Theory is true, and not the other way around. If you start with the Theory as being true, and read the Bible with that assumption; you can only arrive at an unbiblical conclusion.

lol.. The penalty of sin is death

This the ONLY payment which can pay for our sins
you will either pay for it with your death (in revelations, it is called the second death) or you will entrust Jesus death to "cover" your sins.

There is no other option